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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
maybe hes talking about fluctuating winpercentages around 50% and outliers of up to 55% are fine as long as things change, but constant 55% for one race is very imbalanced post queen buff in wol for example had average winrates of 55% in zvt ín favor of zerg until hots was released and we all know what this causes to racial distribution in tournaments etc | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:01 Tsubbi wrote: the only part that really threw me off was when he stated a 55% winrate in a matchup is ok as long as its fun, people might not realize how far the balance is off in that case maybe hes talking about fluctuating winpercentages around 50% and outliers of up to 55% are fine as long as things change, but constant 55% for one race is very imbalanced post queen buff in wol for example had average winrates of 55% in zvt ín favor of zerg until hots was released and we all know what this causes to racial distribution in tournaments etc 55% is really where the danger zone begins. The fact that many tourneys use B03 or BO5 means that when you get anywhere near 66%, a race starts to disappear. As long as the race that disappears is protoss, it's fine  | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On May 18 2013 08:18 monkybone wrote: so this. Protoss has the cheapest scouting in the game. There are problems with this. Toss has spent gas on warp gate, gas on momma core, gas on a sentry, then gas on hallucinate. What is the gas cost for terran to scan or make a reaper? How much gas do overlords and creep cost? How long do these things stay on the map for compared to a hallucination? Creep gives speed boost, and overlords will be made anyway, and there is this thing called a changeling, which in your way of thinking is also free? Now tell me how you scout a zerg player who keeps a few lings active on the map or a terran that walls, during the time those first lings come out or the wall for terran is up and before you have obs or hallucinate? You know, during this time when terran or zerg can easily know EXACTLY what toss is doing? A protoss has to commit to expanding while not knowing if a roach or bane bust is coming, not knowing if the terran dropped 5 rax in his main. Protoss has to be prepared for an all in, they can't scout, at the same time they have to build an econ that can keep up with a zerg or terran macro game. If protoss 1 gate expands, or FFE, how late does hallucinate or obs come out, meanwhile terran and zerg suffer no delay in scout timing, at much less the investment, when they've expand even more greedily than the protoss. | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:34 Reborn8u wrote: There are problems with this. Toss has spent gas on warp gate, gas on momma core, gas on a sentry, then gas on hallucinate. What is the gas cost for terran to scan or make a reaper? How much gas do overlords and creep cost? How long do these things stay on the map for compared to a hallucination? Creep gives speed boost, and overlords will be made anyway, and there is this thing called a changeling, which in your way of thinking is also free It's worth noting that there is no gas cost for hallucinate, as it's no longer an upgrade and is simply available when you make a sentry, so the cost is simply the enrgy cost of a sentry you almost certainly have anyway. It's also a pretty good scouting tool, given it can move quickly anywhere so long as it doesn't die. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:51 Iyerbeth wrote: It's worth noting that there is no gas cost for hallucinate, as it's no longer an upgrade and is simply available when you make a sentry, so the cost is simply the enrgy cost of a sentry you almost certainly have anyway. It's also a pretty good scouting tool, given it can move quickly anywhere so long as it doesn't die. Exactly ... and since you almost never only get one Sentry you will have enough energy to use it regularly. Sadly there are too few Protoss who actively use it in battle to fake out their opponents into thinking you have more stuff than you really have. Early on there wont be that much detection and it might work for the first push. I feel it should be a requirement to get at least one real Phoenix or Void Ray (your choice) against Zerg to get rid of those pesky scouting Overlords around your base. These units are far from useless and you could even use the fake out option again to make your opponent think you are going skytoss (obviously you have to get the timing right and not show too many units to make it unbelievable). At least in lower leagues it should work and in higher leagues it forces detection from the opponent to figure out what is what. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:09 Rabiator wrote: Exactly ... and since you almost never only get one Sentry you will have enough energy to use it regularly. Sadly there are too few Protoss who actively use it in battle to fake out their opponents into thinking you have more stuff than you really have. Early on there wont be that much detection and it might work for the first push. I think that use is a gimmick. I think the better use for it in battle is not to make it seem like you have a bigger army, but to give you a ton more units which are basically free energy based tanks. I'm not sure how the damage scaling works, but there's no way unless a guy has like 500APM that he'll be able to avoid targetting all of your hallucinations. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:12 Qikz wrote: I think that use is a gimmick. I think the better use for it in battle is not to make it seem like you have a bigger army, but to give you a ton more units which are basically free energy based tanks. I'm not sure how the damage scaling works, but there's no way unless a guy has like 500APM that he'll be able to avoid targetting all of your hallucinations. Well you could use the energy to cast forcefields OR you could use it to get additional units (you get 4 Zealots or 2 Stalkers per cast!!!) which gives your units "bonus hit points" in that the enemy will not hit the real stuff (if you can keep the detection out ... so it might not work against Terrans). This is far from a gimmick ... people just need to do it! The fake units are still around even if you know they are fake and it is only with detection that you can tell which ones are real and which ones arent. If you are surrounded by Zerglings those 4 extra Zealots block their path just as well as a Forcefield ... I know they take double damage, but they might last longer than the Forcefield. If you push in on a Zerg before he has detection a swarm of fake Zealots would really help shield the real Stalkers because they can even move! | ||
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:12 Qikz wrote: I think that use is a gimmick. I think the better use for it in battle is not to make it seem like you have a bigger army, but to give you a ton more units which are basically free energy based tanks. I'm not sure how the damage scaling works, but there's no way unless a guy has like 500APM that he'll be able to avoid targetting all of your hallucinations. As soon as detection is present, units will automatically give hallucinations a lower target priority. So a scan/overseer/obs and your hallucinated units are effectively ignored. You may get away with it at lower levels, but a decent player should be able to tell that your army-size / composition doesn't make sense compared to what was scouted earlier and throw down a scan or bring in a detector. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:21 Rannasha wrote: As soon as detection is present, units will automatically give hallucinations a lower target priority. So a scan/overseer/obs and your hallucinated units are effectively ignored. You may get away with it at lower levels, but a decent player should be able to tell that your army-size / composition doesn't make sense compared to what was scouted earlier and throw down a scan or bring in a detector. That is exactly what I said ... you have to make sure there is no detection!!!! So do it early (where the extra units will help because your opponent will have a chance of hitting the wrong ones) or in a battle where you can be sure there is no detection (i.e. against Zerg where you are sure no Overseer is around due to clearing them out). The worst thing that happens is that you force more detection, but giving enemy units a chance to hit a fake unit is better than just covering one arc of Forcefields while being swarmed from the other by Zerglings ... i.e. in a wide open space. | ||
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wangstra
922 Posts
In my view that's a step backwards in diversity. Would Kim & Co ever consider going back,'hey we over did it here, the game has matured, we'd like to see how players can now handle those situations'. I simply don't see progress in the balance and enjoyment of the game as simply adding to changes already made without ever going back to revise prior decisions. I would really like to hear Kim's thoughts on that in the future. | ||
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UBavarice
Sweden358 Posts
Overall though, it was great to see someone like David Kim make a public showing and answering the questions of the pros/community. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:34 Reborn8u wrote: There are problems with this. Toss has spent gas on warp gate, gas on momma core, gas on a sentry, then gas on hallucinate. What is the gas cost for terran to scan or make a reaper? How much gas do overlords and creep cost? How long do these things stay on the map for compared to a hallucination? Creep gives speed boost, and overlords will be made anyway, and there is this thing called a changeling, which in your way of thinking is also free? Now tell me how you scout a zerg player who keeps a few lings active on the map or a terran that walls, during the time those first lings come out or the wall for terran is up and before you have obs or hallucinate? You know, during this time when terran or zerg can easily know EXACTLY what toss is doing? A protoss has to commit to expanding while not knowing if a roach or bane bust is coming, not knowing if the terran dropped 5 rax in his main. Protoss has to be prepared for an all in, they can't scout, at the same time they have to build an econ that can keep up with a zerg or terran macro game. If protoss 1 gate expands, or FFE, how late does hallucinate or obs come out, meanwhile terran and zerg suffer no delay in scout timing, at much less the investment, when they've expand even more greedily than the protoss. Your post is just blatant whining to be honest. Sentries and the MSC are worth the investment not just to scout your opponent so you would build them in any case. Protoss is not struggling because of the lack of scouting. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:01 Tsubbi wrote: the only part that really threw me off was when he stated a 55% winrate in a matchup is ok as long as its fun, people might not realize how far the balance is off in that case maybe hes talking about fluctuating winpercentages around 50% and outliers of up to 55% are fine as long as things change, but constant 55% for one race is very imbalanced post queen buff in wol for example had average winrates of 55% in zvt ín favor of zerg until hots was released and we all know what this causes to racial distribution in tournaments etc It was closer to 60% for the most part. Anyways, one of the problems with that thought was PvZ not being touched because it had balanced winrates but it was regarded as boring as hell. Winrate is not everything they should take into account, and i completely agree with that. | ||
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CrueltY
Guernsey37 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:09 Rabiator wrote: Exactly ... and since you almost never only get one Sentry you will have enough energy to use it regularly. Sadly there are too few Protoss who actively use it in battle to fake out their opponents into thinking you have more stuff than you really have. Early on there wont be that much detection and it might work for the first push. I would be interested to see a Protoss that hallucinated immortals to fake an immo-sentry timing, to get a zerg to overeact. I've been talking about it with a couple of friends, and thought it would be an interesting little idea. Especially if you were able to make it difficult for the zerg to know you took a 3rd. On the subject of scouting, I think there is more to scouting then simply the effectiveness of the various scouting methods. If there were not grey areas in which certain unusual builds could be executed, that could remove game variety as builds become considered 'unviable'. The fact that some things are difficult to scout, and effort has to be made to deny scouting, makes for interesting player interaction. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
It was a little on the short side, but that seems to be the new approach for sotg... however I guess that leaving me wanting more means I'll always tune in for the next show :D | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On May 18 2013 23:27 Rabiator wrote: That is exactly what I said ... you have to make sure there is no detection!!!! So do it early (where the extra units will help because your opponent will have a chance of hitting the wrong ones) or in a battle where you can be sure there is no detection (i.e. against Zerg where you are sure no Overseer is around due to clearing them out). The worst thing that happens is that you force more detection, but giving enemy units a chance to hit a fake unit is better than just covering one arc of Forcefields while being swarmed from the other by Zerglings ... i.e. in a wide open space. This is sometimes done, especially with a couple hallucinated immortals to tank, but even in early game it is not so feasible. It requires additional sentries, which is a heavy gas investment an reduces the overall dps of your army. Also, in order to do this regularly, you should be using it at an offense option. However, making several sentries when you want to attack is generally much stronger if you try for a gateway all in with lots of forcefields. Then the hallucinations dont matter because you are only engaging part of their army anyway. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
On May 19 2013 08:17 EleanorRIgby wrote: cant jp post 1hr+ videos? why are they all 30 mins He lives of these videos. More videos means more financial support by viewership. | ||
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