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On July 07 2011 03:39 Hargol wrote:The show was pretty good overall, but am I the only one really bothered by Tyler talking about how 20% of all tournament wins are just luck? That just keeps nagging at me 
Think of how often you lose to players that are clearly "worse" than you on the ladder, whether it's to cheese, a mistake on your part, or a "build order loss." It's frustratingly common, but it's an inherent part of the game, and SC2 would be really boring if that factor didn't exist.
Then, consider that at the top level, the difference between player skill levels is relatively small; wins often come on tiny margins where three or four extra units or a slightly better concave would have flipped who won or lost. What Tyler means is that a large number of games are simply determined by things like "well IdrA decided to take an overlord scout pattern that barely missed the council so he wasn't prepared for DTs and lost," and there's no amount of skill that can compensate for things like that.
Maybe it would've been better if Tyler had used the word "chance" instead of "luck," since there's slightly different connotations, but I think that's really semantics and you'd probably have the same feeling if he'd said "chance" anyway.
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On July 07 2011 02:56 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 19:25 Koshi wrote:
Best fucking show in the world:
-Artosis micro muted
-Naniwa: "Don't worry, I got the ball"
Naniwa: "How cool would it be to beat MC and type /dance"
On a date with Artosis, Day[9] would have a hard time choosing between HSC and Nothing Hill.
Day[9] looking back at TvT: "Suddenly somebody made a Marauder and shit he was the Bonjwa"
1 downside. 3 Protoss 0 Zergs 0 Terrans How can you make a "best of the show" list and NOT include Tyler's reaction to DRG 
Oh my god no, keep him away!
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going to listen now, hope for some gooood stuff!
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Day9 is such a motor mouth, says/interrupts a lot not much comes out. Can't stand the guy. Nani could not get a word in edge wise w/ Day9 interrupting/talking all the time. Like Nani's thoughts tho. He seems to think before he talks.
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On July 07 2011 04:37 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 02:56 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 06 2011 19:25 Koshi wrote:
Best fucking show in the world:
-Artosis micro muted
-Naniwa: "Don't worry, I got the ball"
Naniwa: "How cool would it be to beat MC and type /dance"
On a date with Artosis, Day[9] would have a hard time choosing between HSC and Nothing Hill.
Day[9] looking back at TvT: "Suddenly somebody made a Marauder and shit he was the Bonjwa"
1 downside. 3 Protoss 0 Zergs 0 Terrans How can you make a "best of the show" list and NOT include Tyler's reaction to DRG Oh my god no, keep him away!
Tyler had a valid reaction - DRG is now 6-0 this season in GSTL lol.
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On July 07 2011 04:18 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:39 Hargol wrote:The show was pretty good overall, but am I the only one really bothered by Tyler talking about how 20% of all tournament wins are just luck? That just keeps nagging at me Think of how often you lose to players that are clearly "worse" than you on the ladder, whether it's to cheese, a mistake on your part, or a "build order loss." It's frustratingly common, but it's an inherent part of the game, and SC2 would be really boring if that factor didn't exist. Then, consider that at the top level, the difference between player skill levels is relatively small; wins often come on tiny margins where three or four extra units or a slightly better concave would have flipped who won or lost. What Tyler means is that a large number of games are simply determined by things like "well IdrA decided to take an overlord scout pattern that barely missed the council so he wasn't prepared for DTs and lost," and there's no amount of skill that can compensate for things like that. Maybe it would've been better if Tyler had used the word "chance" instead of "luck," since there's slightly different connotations, but I think that's really semantics and you'd probably have the same feeling if he'd said "chance" anyway.
I cannot agree with that. I might be an ignoramus here; Tyler said it, he has to know something about it. But scouting patterns in later stages of the game shouldn't in my opinion be considered a chance. Same with higher number of units or a better concave - being it a conscious decision, a habit or a feeling in the gut, the player's action had to occur to let him gain that slight edge. If you scouted a proxy and it saved you the game then yeah, it probably was luck. Or was it really? Proxies most often are designed to gain you some kind of an advantage, being it time, distance or surprise one, most often also happen to be involved in winning tactics. But they have their disadvantages and you can prepare for them. It's not like they are that common, and if you study a player's game, you will learn about his tendencies and such. Here comes the element of surprise from people, but wasn't it involved in SCBW?
On the other hand, I'm feeling the similar way as you guys. The economy system in SC2 in my opinion lets you get away with strictly having more, or better against your opponent, units and securing an income needed to outmass him, not really forcing you to gain those slight edges over him in order to actually win the game outright. Obviously, without a proper formation and position your army will get crushed by an experienced opponent, but the amount of unit control you need to do is way, way smaller than it was in SCBW, mostly due to the army numbers, that are increasing very quickly over time, and income you can secure quite quickly. Build order wins in my opinion occur because of lack of really good scouting (which in case of certain timing pushes can be really difficult, I am aware of that), but I can guess that even if we get to the point where it becomes actually the most important aspect of the gameplay and we get used to the concept of 20 minutes long games with 45 seconds long micro periods in them, we won't enjoy it anyway.
Aside from all this bs,
It's good to see you guys back. Can't wait for another episode.
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I cannot agree with that. I might be an ignoramus here; Tyler said it, he has to know something about it. But scouting patterns in later stages of the game shouldn't in my opinion be considered a chance. Same with higher number of units or a better concave - being it a conscious decision, a habit or a feeling in the gut, the player's action had to occur to let him gain that slight edge. If you scouted a proxy and it saved you the game then yeah, it probably was luck. Or was it really? Proxies most often are designed to gain you some kind of an advantage, being it time, distance or surprise one, most often also happen to be involved in winning tactics. But they have their disadvantages and you can prepare for them. It's not like they are that common, and if you study a player's game, you will learn about his tendencies and such. Here comes the element of surprise from people, but wasn't it involved in SCBW?
I think it ultimately boils down to the fact that Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. No matter how good you are, no matter how well you know your opponent's tendencies, no matter how hard you try to scout everything, there are going to be things you miss. Without even going into the issue of build order losses (which I do think are real, especially in mirror matchups), every decision you make in Starcraft is really a gamble because you can never know exactly what your opponent's doing or wants to do.
Let's use an example. It's TvT on TDA, you scout your opponent, and you see a barracks and depot wall and no gas (you got in before the 2nd depot went up). The marine kills you while the orbital's in progress, and he didn't build anything else. What's he doing? Well, he could be going for a 1rax gasless FE, he could be proxying a barracks or two, or he could be doing some sort of marine allin like the TLO/mango build. What's the safest way to play this out?
You can send an SCV poking around to scout for proxies, which loses you mining time, and you have a chance of finding his proxies (if they exist). Even if you know the common proxy spots, you can't cover all of them in time to react properly, and your opponent is certainly aware of the usual proxy spots and may avoid them anyway. This gives you a chance of spotting his proxy, at the cost of minerals. If he didn't proxy (or, worse, you didn't scout it), you're now slightly behind, and still don't really know for sure what he's doing. You're playing safe, remember, so you don't want to expand, because he could still be going for an allin or have a proxy you missed.
You can then use your second 50 energy on the orbital to scan, which should be in time to spot if he's expanding (his gases should be going up by then) or if he's doing a marine allin (he probably would have cut SCVs by that time, and no gas is a huge tell anyway). This obviously costs 270 minerals, which is a lot, but there's really no other way to tell if he's going allin, right?
Well, let's say your scan sees that he has two gas up, meaning he expanded. If you didn't expand because you were nervous about proxies, you're now way behind, and have to rely on hellions or banshees to bring you on even economic footing while you start your own CC. You were as safe as you could be, you didn't take any gambles, and now you're behind because he took the gamble/chance of expanding really fast, and you didn't.
Basically, the rambling point I'm trying to make here is that if you don't take risks and play ultra-"safe," you can and will end up way behind your opponent that took risks and had them pay off. Any decent player will make calculated gambles, such as being greedier against a player like IdrA, or playing more defensive against a notorious cheeser like TheBestfOu. If you don't take those risks, if you don't do something chancey based on what little information you managed to collect, you will lose a hell of a lot no matter how good you are.
That's the "luck" factor I think Tyler is talking about. You have to gamble to get ahead of an equal opponent, so some of winning a game/series/tournament ends up coming down to whether those bets you made pay off or not.
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On July 07 2011 03:24 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:00 nvs. wrote:I kind of felt bad for Naniwa always being cut off. That and I'd kill for a charismatic Terran player to make a regular appearance on SotG. Name one! terran players have no charisma; they hide behind walls.
TLO?
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On July 07 2011 03:39 Hargol wrote:The show was pretty good overall, but am I the only one really bothered by Tyler talking about how 20% of all tournament wins are just luck? That just keeps nagging at me
Tournaments almost always have a poor format to allow the best player to succeed. It has a lot to do with luck of the draw. Groups/brackets are arbitrarily made up.
Actually, I never understood why is doesn't bother more people that formats aren't more rational.
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On July 08 2011 05:13 oskarla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 03:24 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 07 2011 03:00 nvs. wrote:I kind of felt bad for Naniwa always being cut off. That and I'd kill for a charismatic Terran player to make a regular appearance on SotG. Name one! terran players have no charisma; they hide behind walls. TLO?
QXC. Keen. Tarson etc.. Lame comment.
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On July 08 2011 05:22 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 05:13 oskarla wrote:On July 07 2011 03:24 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 07 2011 03:00 nvs. wrote:I kind of felt bad for Naniwa always being cut off. That and I'd kill for a charismatic Terran player to make a regular appearance on SotG. Name one! terran players have no charisma; they hide behind walls. TLO? QXC. Keen. Tarson etc.. Lame comment.
Well none of those could realistically appear regularly on sotg.
I don't know why some people obsess so much about the races the hosts happen to play. You're all a bunch of racists.
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On July 08 2011 05:38 flodeskum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 05:22 tdt wrote:On July 08 2011 05:13 oskarla wrote:On July 07 2011 03:24 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 07 2011 03:00 nvs. wrote:I kind of felt bad for Naniwa always being cut off. That and I'd kill for a charismatic Terran player to make a regular appearance on SotG. Name one! terran players have no charisma; they hide behind walls. TLO? QXC. Keen. Tarson etc.. Lame comment. Well none of those could realistically appear regularly on sotg. I don't know why some people obsess so much about the races the hosts happen to play. You're all a bunch of racists.
hm. doesn't TLO has a hand insury and can't play for a while? I could see him joining sotg a few times
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On July 08 2011 05:56 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 05:38 flodeskum wrote:On July 08 2011 05:22 tdt wrote:On July 08 2011 05:13 oskarla wrote:On July 07 2011 03:24 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 07 2011 03:00 nvs. wrote:I kind of felt bad for Naniwa always being cut off. That and I'd kill for a charismatic Terran player to make a regular appearance on SotG. Name one! terran players have no charisma; they hide behind walls. TLO? QXC. Keen. Tarson etc.. Lame comment. Well none of those could realistically appear regularly on sotg. I don't know why some people obsess so much about the races the hosts happen to play. You're all a bunch of racists. hm. doesn't TLO has a hand insury and can't play for a while? I could see him joining sotg a few times
He also lives in Sweden and sotg is on in the middle of the night in Europe. So I doubt any european player will be able to be on sotg regularly.
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Is it just me or does Tyler always come off as bitter lol
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Australia8532 Posts
On July 08 2011 12:35 TooN wrote:
Is it just me or does Tyler always come off as bitter lol
Nah he's not bitter; he's just chill bro. I liked this episode of SotG - DayJ was still around to provide comic relief and Artosis really needs to unmute his mic haha  So glad it is back!
For some strange reason i couldn't stop staring at Nani's v neck.. so very low!
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On July 08 2011 03:16 SMD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 04:37 rotegirte wrote:On July 07 2011 02:56 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 06 2011 19:25 Koshi wrote:
Best fucking show in the world:
-Artosis micro muted
-Naniwa: "Don't worry, I got the ball"
Naniwa: "How cool would it be to beat MC and type /dance"
On a date with Artosis, Day[9] would have a hard time choosing between HSC and Nothing Hill.
Day[9] looking back at TvT: "Suddenly somebody made a Marauder and shit he was the Bonjwa"
1 downside. 3 Protoss 0 Zergs 0 Terrans How can you make a "best of the show" list and NOT include Tyler's reaction to DRG Oh my god no, keep him away! Tyler had a valid reaction - DRG is now 6-0 this season in GSTL lol.
I know right, DRG is out of this world good. His games against oGs, holy shit man he dominated.
Anyway I love Artosis as the new pillar, but does anyone feel like its just not the same chemistry without Geoff? Its still awesome, but some of that magic has gone, I think it will take a little while for them to regain that, oh well I will enjoy the Artosis shenanigans nonetheless....
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I know right, DRG is out of this world good. His games against oGs, holy shit man he dominated.
You don't fuck around with The Dong. On a serious note it would be great if he DID get invited to Anaheim, for one he gets a shot at Code S, and for two someone might make a cheerful with a bunch of dicks on it at MLG like they did for gsl!
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On July 08 2011 12:44 Rasun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 03:16 SMD wrote:On July 07 2011 04:37 rotegirte wrote:On July 07 2011 02:56 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 06 2011 19:25 Koshi wrote:
Best fucking show in the world:
-Artosis micro muted
-Naniwa: "Don't worry, I got the ball"
Naniwa: "How cool would it be to beat MC and type /dance"
On a date with Artosis, Day[9] would have a hard time choosing between HSC and Nothing Hill.
Day[9] looking back at TvT: "Suddenly somebody made a Marauder and shit he was the Bonjwa"
1 downside. 3 Protoss 0 Zergs 0 Terrans How can you make a "best of the show" list and NOT include Tyler's reaction to DRG Oh my god no, keep him away! Tyler had a valid reaction - DRG is now 6-0 this season in GSTL lol. I know right, DRG is out of this world good. His games against oGs, holy shit man he dominated. Anyway I love Artosis as the new pillar, but does anyone feel like its just not the same chemistry without Geoff? Its still awesome, but some of that magic has gone, I think it will take a little while for them to regain that, oh well I will enjoy the Artosis shenanigans nonetheless....
It's a different show, idk about better or worse or "magic". As knowledgable as Geoff is, to me his role in the show was more of a color guy or jokester- think ranting, horses, who is artosis?, etc. He was really the "comedian" of the group, and with Artosis in you now have JP as the host and 3 analysts. It's a more serious show, and I think i'll need more time to see if I like it better or not. He's certainly capable of providing insight, especially about Korea since he knows alot of the players there, even up and coming ones not really seen in GSL, which is a great perspective to have on the show. I'd like a dedicated Terran player but I don't really know who you'd invite.
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It's a different show, idk about better or worse or "magic". As knowledgable as Geoff is, to me his role in the show was more of a color guy or jokester- think ranting, horses, who is artosis?, etc. He was really the "comedian" of the group, and with Artosis in you now have JP as the host and 3 analysts. It's a more serious show, and I think i'll need more time to see if I like it better or not. He's certainly capable of providing insight, especially about Korea since he knows alot of the players there, even up and coming ones not really seen in GSL, which is a great perspective to have on the show. I'd like a dedicated Terran player but I don't really know who you'd invite.
I dunno how much "seriousness" Artosis brings to the show. If you have ever seen him stream he curses like sailor and is probably the only player more BM on his stream than Idra lol.
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It seems to me like their really just aren't many great foreigner terran. QXC has been busy with his study abroad. TLO is injured and I thought he plays random anyway. I think Tarson might just be a flash in the pan, though I could be wrong. The only one I can think of is Thorzain, but again we'll have to wait and see if he continues to do well.
Well, I guess there are some good european terran, but are their any Americans/Canadians? I can't think of any
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EPT
