EPTSC2 Race Stats (tournament games, no ladder) - Page 2
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Kinky
United States4126 Posts
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TzTz
Germany511 Posts
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Tak3r
United Kingdom749 Posts
 it all has to wait until the coder is back next week though and he also has like 30 other ToDos from me at the moment hehe but in some months everything should be done | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
I don't like the way it factors in mirrors. If a tournament has a large number of mirror matches, then the race's win percentage is going to go up no matter what. someone already pointed out the flaw in this logic, but I will give an example. lets say in a tournament T was 20 - 10 against other races. That is a 67% win percent. Lets say there were 10 TvTs. That brings the new T record to 30 - 20 for the tournament, which is actually a 60% ratio win percent. Therefore, more mirrors actually will bring a your win percent closer to 50(no matter if it is higher or lower beforehand). | ||
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fallore
United States143 Posts
On August 19 2010 07:30 Necrosjef wrote: Zerg espicially have hit the ceiling for getting better I think, I doubt there is much more strategies out there that no one has considered yet. imagine saying that there are no more strategies to be worked out one month into starcraft: brood war. ridiculous | ||
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Kinky
United States4126 Posts
On August 19 2010 08:41 petered wrote: someone already pointed out the flaw in this logic, but I will give an example. lets say in a tournament T was 20 - 10 against other races. That is a 67% win percent. Lets say there were 10 TvTs. That brings the new T record to 30 - 20 for the tournament, which is actually a 60% ratio win percent. Therefore, more mirrors actually will bring a your win percent closer to 50(no matter if it is higher or lower beforehand). The way you added those 10 TvT's is assuming that every match went 1-1, whereas the matches against the other races went 2-1. That obviously brings the win percentage for Terran closer to 50%. The op already edited the way mirrors are counted from Note: The system counts every single map in the games of our Matchticker, so for example if there is a Terran mirror with 2-1, the Terran stats will get 2 wins and 1 loss added to their score. to Note: The system counts every single map in the games of our Matchticker, so for example if there is a Terran mirror with 2-1, the Terran stats will get 3 wins and 3 loss added to their score. Clearly it was wrong before. | ||
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Tak3r
United Kingdom749 Posts
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petered
United States1817 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/user/AskJoshy#p/f/3/RwtLeW3TxBc on JoshSuth's youtube channel, and I have to say that game is pretty idiotic, in my opinion. Before I was kinda neutral about the whole TvZ imbalance, but this game has made me a believer of idra/dimaga/sheth etc. The harass from maka barely cost him anything. It wasn't an all in or something that dramatically reduced his economy, just a fairly normal opening with fast gas. He was able to cancel unfinished bunkers and salvage bunkers that were just about to be killed. If idra went one base roaches, it would severely hurt his economy since he would be so far behind in drone production, and then even if he was able to kill the reapers(which they shouldn't be with good micro) and kill the bunker, it is the easiest thing in the world to get a few marauders, a bunker, and expand, getting your second expansion before the zerg. If idra had gone mutas it would have once again hurt his economy, it would have been scouted considering the free reign the reapers have in idra's base (not to mention it is the only possible explanation for a fast lair) and it is very easy to defend with turrets and marine, meaning he would have once again been way ahead. Now, don't get me wrong, not just any terran can pull that off. But for professionals, how many do you think wouldn't be able to get to that level? Maka definitely isn't some super player, any current BW terran could pull off that build in a couple months of practice. The nice thing is that this imbalance is hardly apparent at my skill level, since I don't think most casual players can do that and would probably just sacrifice reapers. But tournament TvZ is going to get stupid very fast if this catches on. | ||
TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
It's also good to see the number of mirror matches just to see how often a race gets picked and plays. If Zergs eliminate each other playing ZvZ all the time, it just looks like Zergs never make deep into the tournaments or make it in at all. The number of participants counts and how deep they play counts for something. It's too early to say anything about imbalance based off of stats and we're all probably too bad to talk about it from an experience or skill point of view. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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Gunman_csz
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
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StupidFatHobbit
United States98 Posts
On August 19 2010 08:52 fallore wrote: this is really interesting, and will be even more so when the mirror bug is worked out. imagine saying that there are no more strategies to be worked out one month into starcraft: brood war. ridiculous I'm getting really sick of this fallacious analogy. Things are a lot different than they were a month into BW. First off, the entire playerbase is much more experienced as a whole with RTS gaming than at that time, not to mention it is orders of fucking magnitude larger. Second off, the community is a lot more integrated and active than it ever was, and with how fast replays/etc spread compared to back then new strategies populate far faster than they used to. Necrosjef is right, zerg are more or less capping out on how "good" they can actually get because the skill ceiling of the race is much much lower than it is for Terran. In addition, time absolutely favors terran in this sense since their units have far more synergy (and there's a hell of a lot more of them) than there are for zerg. You can practically throw any two terran units together and make a good comp, while some zerg units simply cannot be used in tandem (lings + ultras, lings + broods, etc). Look at the top ladder/tournament spots, watch the games, etc. Or better yet, switch from T to Z or vice versa and actually try to get good at it and see what happens. I went from Z to T because I figured I could argue with bullheaded Terrans who are happy with their overpowered race and want to keep it that way, or I could join them and stop losing to players who were far below me in skill level. I'm now higher than I ever was with Z and 90% of TvZ's are free wins with ANY kind of solidly executed midgame push. | ||
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stepover12
United States175 Posts
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Sha[DoW]
Canada110 Posts
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Tak3r
United Kingdom749 Posts
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Tak3r
United Kingdom749 Posts
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Backtothemars
United States14 Posts
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Grokken
Sweden245 Posts
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andyrichdale
New Zealand90 Posts
On August 19 2010 07:07 ChickenLips wrote: Stats = useless The game is way too young and the strategies are by no means anywhere near refined enough to allow these kinds of statistics to have much if any meaning. If you want to discuss TvZ or whatever imbalance use rational arguments and not statistics that are only based on the status quo that is subject to ever-lasting change. That's pretty ignorant. Stats are definately not useless. Also, rational arguments are always subjective and very prone to bias. At least with stats you can present definative findings - the conclusions of the findings is sometimes up to the observer but the numbers themselves can be argued against. | ||
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CynanMachae
Canada1459 Posts
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