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I'm not really intending this to be whiny, but more since I'm new to Starcraft I wanted to see if teh hardkorez communitiez thinks this is an intended mechanic, or something kind of clunky that's just a holdover from the original game.
I like the Terran tech building add-ons. I think they're a neat feature of the race, with upsides like being able to switch buildings around, and downsides like being able to target fire a Tech Lab while it's researching an upgrade.
However, I don't like that the add-ons must spawn on the right hand side of the building. The reasoning being that this single feature makes where you spawn on a given map important in regards to building a wall. For TvT and TvP it's not super important because walls are not super important, but for TvZ it can be a big deal, especially in regards to Baneling busts.
Lets say we're playing on Desert Oasis. If I spawn on the left hand side, I can complete a wall with my add-on, but if I spawn on the right hand side, I can't. I have to build a second supply depot. Not really an enormous deal, if I'm worried about early Zerglings or Zealots I may have to drop that second depot a tad earlier than I want to.
But if it's TvZ and I'm trying to defend against Banelings, spawning on the right hand side I actually have to place more buildings to create a Baneling proof wall than if I spawn on the left hand side. This in turn changes Banelings effectiveness dependent on my spawn location, and it's like that on every single map in the ladder pool. (Except maybe Scrap Station?)
I think this is a little odd, and while it's not a super gigantic deal, it does annoy me a little. I was wondering if it annoys anybody else.
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Another good example is Kulas. If you spawn on the bottom right, you can complete your wall with a sd+rax, and your tech lab will pop inside your base. If you are on the top left, your tech lab will be shootable by stalkers, which is actually really annoying because there is no ramp.
I do think it's a bit of a legitimate issue, because games are won and lost by small things, and there's no doubt that luck of the spawn will determine the winner in some games.
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I totally have issues with this too. It fucks your walls up if you get a bad spawn location, and makes your tech lab EXTREMELY vulnerable.
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On steppes of War (bottom position) you can wall in with a Tech lab as well,
1 supply depot, 1 rax, and techlab to finish it off, however this makes baneling busting exceptionally strogner
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Map position helps and hinders other races as well, it's not just Terran, although I'll admit this is not a particular issue I had ever thought of
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How can your spawn position on a two player map affect the other two races?
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you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them.
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I have to say that I've lost a game because of spawn positions with addons where he was able to kill my reactor because it was exposed where if i got top position this wouldnt have been a problem. But still I don't think this is a big issue
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BTW starting positions also matter for Z because of the retarded larva placement always below the hatch. For P it shouldn't matter for anything though.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Wrong forum. Personally I don't think that this is a big deal. Repair, build a bunker behind the thing if you're worried about Baneling busts, and you're golden.
Oh, and on a sort of "realistic" level, it makes more sense to only have accommodations for the add-on on one spot of a building.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them.
Uh, it does affect the game enormously.
Compare having your techlab on the outside or inside of the wall (kulas) and you'll see why.
Compare having your add-ons pointing out towards the edge of your base, and inwards - pretty huge difference vs harass later on in the game.
It's a pretty big deal and I'd prefer if you could choose side.
On August 12 2010 19:37 Mystlord wrote:
Wrong forum. Personally I don't think that this is a big deal. Repair, build a bunker behind the thing if you're worried about Baneling busts, and you're golden.
Oh, and on a sort of "realistic" level, it makes more sense to only have accommodations for the add-on on one spot of a building.
That's silly, why would you want there to be positional imbalances in maps?
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i posted about it on the official bnet forums and it got deleted
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Zerg has this too, seeing as the larvae spawns "under" the hatchery, so if you spawn with minerals above the hatch your drones will have to travel a lot further than they would have to otherwise. Just deal with it, imo.
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On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them.
Obvious troll is obvious.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 12 2010 19:51 Naught wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them. Obvious troll is obvious.
not really... i mean what kind of fail whine goes on about terran being unfairly gimped on kulas ravine, seriously?
there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them. if there was no such thing as positional imbalance then why doesn't blizzard just remove the maps and just use one universal map?
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United States42638 Posts
On August 12 2010 20:00 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 19:51 Naught wrote:On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them. Obvious troll is obvious. not really... i mean what kind of fail whine goes on about terran being unfairly gimped on kulas ravine, seriously? there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them.
They exist because nobody foresaw them when bw was made or they were unavoidable in mapmaking (for example units spawning at the bottom of buildings). Just because we accepted the limitations of the game in bw doesn't mean we should emulate the same problems in sc2.
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On August 12 2010 20:02 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:00 tarsier wrote:On August 12 2010 19:51 Naught wrote:On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them. Obvious troll is obvious. not really... i mean what kind of fail whine goes on about terran being unfairly gimped on kulas ravine, seriously? there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them. They exist because nobody foresaw them when bw was made or they were unavoidable in mapmaking (for example units spawning at the bottom of buildings). Just because we accepted the limitations of the game in bw doesn't mean we should emulate the same problems in sc2.
part of the strategy is adapting your build. if you constantly lose because your techlab is 3 units closer to the enemy then you should consider not putting your techlab in the wall.
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On August 12 2010 20:09 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:02 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2010 20:00 tarsier wrote:On August 12 2010 19:51 Naught wrote:On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them. Obvious troll is obvious. not really... i mean what kind of fail whine goes on about terran being unfairly gimped on kulas ravine, seriously? there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them. They exist because nobody foresaw them when bw was made or they were unavoidable in mapmaking (for example units spawning at the bottom of buildings). Just because we accepted the limitations of the game in bw doesn't mean we should emulate the same problems in sc2. part of the strategy is adapting your build. if you constantly lose because your techlab is 3 units closer to the enemy then you should consider not putting your techlab in the wall.
You're missing the point. Yeah, as players we should adapt to whatever flaws the games have. You are right, of course, if we keep losing the tech lab we simply shouldn't build it there.
But that doesn't mean this should be in the game, it's an unnecessary imbalance that really doesn't add anything to the match ups. It definitely wouldn't hurt if Blizzard provided a fix for it and I highlyh doubt it was intended by Blizzard in the first place. it's a bit like if one of the backdoors on Blistering had 5% more hp, sure it's not a big difference and we can adapt a bit but hell, itshouldn't have been like that in the first place.
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United States42638 Posts
On August 12 2010 20:09 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2010 20:02 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2010 20:00 tarsier wrote:On August 12 2010 19:51 Naught wrote:On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
it doesn't effect the game in the slightest tbh... if you're against stalkers then you should have at least a second rax with tech lab which you can use for upgrades.
personally i only wall off against protoss... against zerg i build compact and bunker, hide marines behind buildings and the lings/banelings can't get to them. Obvious troll is obvious. not really... i mean what kind of fail whine goes on about terran being unfairly gimped on kulas ravine, seriously? there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them. They exist because nobody foresaw them when bw was made or they were unavoidable in mapmaking (for example units spawning at the bottom of buildings). Just because we accepted the limitations of the game in bw doesn't mean we should emulate the same problems in sc2. part of the strategy is adapting your build. if you constantly lose because your techlab is 3 units closer to the enemy then you should consider not putting your techlab in the wall.
Obviously. But that doesn't mean it adds something to the game. I'm not saying this is a huge, impossible to get over, balance issue. I'm saying it's a situation that makes otherwise good maps have favourable and unfavourable base sites. The question is whether that's something that improves gameplay or not. If it only detracts from the game then it should be fixed, even if players can get around it.
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there were many positional 'imbalances' like this in broodwar, you don't see any decent players whining about them
Well nobody was really whining, but:
Not quite sure but I think it was Jaedong vs Sea on Dreamliner? And then we basically saw a repeat of that game in Zero? vs someTerran with the Zerg spawning on the other side this time.
The first game was kinda close the second game was a onesided slaughter. Sea himself said (afaik) after the game that he woulda been in some more trouble had he spawned on the other side.
I'd say Jaedong does care that he lost his OSL game.
Barracks, factories and ports are quadratic anyways, no reason not to allow making the addon on either side. Just press the hotkey and then the lab gets built with a click of the mouse on whatever side of the facility your cursor happens to be - that way you can quickly build addons and still decide where you want them to be.
SB
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I too would very much like to choose the side the addon appears on, but I don't think it's gonna happen, it's not big enough of an issue for Blizzard to spend time and money on.
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On August 12 2010 19:47 qoiN wrote:
Zerg has this too, seeing as the larvae spawns "under" the hatchery, so if you spawn with minerals above the hatch your drones will have to travel a lot further than they would have to otherwise. Just deal with it, imo.
I didn't think of this, this also seems a little odd.
I'm not sure it's as big of a deal though, since it will only delay their mining time for one trip, whereas the add-on is there forevers.
Plus, the trade-off you get for the larva sitting around like that is when Marines are retarded and stand there shooting the larva for 10 seconds after the hatch blows up.
Sometimes if I know I'm going to win I sit there and let the larva tank my entire army, just because it's funny.
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On August 12 2010 19:47 qoiN wrote:
Zerg has this too, seeing as the larvae spawns "under" the hatchery, so if you spawn with minerals above the hatch your drones will have to travel a lot further than they would have to otherwise. Just deal with it, imo.
Yeah, no, being unable to properly wall off and drones taking another second to start mining is totally the same. Now without the condescending tone; being unable to properly wall off is not the same as having larvae spawn a second further away from the mineral line.
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On August 12 2010 18:15 tarsier wrote:
you have to build a second supply depot anyway, so why not in the wall (and move your rax back to place tech lab)?
you could also complete wall with a bunker or put a tech lab on your second rax.
A second SD at the wall, why is that bad? Because my favorite thing to do in the entire game is to have a force that beats his initial defense back, then supply block the guy because he walled off with 2 or more supply depots and press the attack with him being unable to reinforce until his standing forces are killed off.
If you walled off with pylons I'd do the exact same thing.
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You also generally have to build the second supply depot a bit earlier than you want to finish the wall, which can delay your build order by 10 seconds or so.
Which is usually not a gamebreaking 10 seconds, but it's a big deal from time to time, and it feels silly that you may or may not lose 10 seconds based on where you spawn.
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I understand both sides of the argument. However, after thinking about it for a minute, I kind of like it how it is. Starcraft is a strategy game in which you have to adapt to your environment in order to be successful. While it may seem unfair that the person spawning at the upper-left position has a different environment as the person on the bottom-right, there is nobody forcing you to put your tech lab at the front of your base. It is a problem with an easy fix, don't pursue a strategy that is not well-suited to the environment you find yourself in.
Before I get flamed, I do not have incredibly strong feelings on this, and would probably support Blizz adding in the ability to choose sides, I just feel like on the margin its not a big deal.
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Map position isn't really supposed to be unimportant.
It's supposed to be a dynamic factor that you need to pay attention to and take advantage of. Terran add-ons are just one thing that helps reinforce this idea.
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I think it's fine. It gives you a more intriguing view of the architecture of the terrans base. Correct placed buildings can/is be the difference between a win or a loss against a banelingbust.
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I kinda like this mechanic, If I'm going for stalkers and I see a tech lab, I'm going to go for it first. It just makes more sense. Terran players should learn to either use the building without an addon (Day[9] talks about this OFTEN) or just not make a barracks in the wall. A really good wall-in is a bunker and two supply depots. Thant said, if you see a two gate or banelings, you probably wont want to get a fast tech lab anyway...so it getting sniped by blings or zealots is really just your fault for not scouting a proxy gate or bling bust.
Late and mid game, however, it really isn't a problem as you've probably expanded by then and have a sizeable force. If they break the tech lab at that point, it's pretty much gg anyway. I played terran in beta, and I experimented with different wall ins vs early agression, and honestly the best thing was bunker/rax/depot and slowly tech to tanks as pressure allows. It stopped everything.
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EPT
