EPTwhy does Z always try BLB against T? - Page 3
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Redunzl
862 Posts
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Runnin
208 Posts
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MrArmStrong
United States4 Posts
Burrow is normally never worth it, I prefer carapace and speed upgrades...Tier 3 units lmao...Infestors I usually have but never use, MC can occasionally make itself useful but that would be relying on your opponent messing up. I've never played a ZvT match, where my BLB failed, that didn't take 40 minutes and consisted of one epic battle followed by a GG (mostly from the terran xD), not my preferred match style but hey, what happens happens. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
I'm going to die in mid game, so the only alternative left for me is to win before it gets to that point against Terran. See this is exactly why I hate the "oh terran is so OP crowd" (coming from a random player)... Does the TvZ MU favor terran? Yes. It does. But so did it in BW fyi. But at the same time, we're nowhere near our skill cap. You make thousands of mistakes every game, very noob mistakes you'd expect from a non-competitive diamond player. 20 hours of TvZ will actually improve your performance in an MU then any reasonable change blizzard could implement. You're basically just giving up and whining instead of consciously trying to improve your incredibly flawed play. Does that mean you can't vocalize your concerns on the forum? No, of course not. But if you tried consciously improving your play instead of whining, not only would the result be far more tangible then some buff, you'd also be able to make less retardedly whiny sounding feedback. :/. You guys watch TLOwnage? Funny shit right? Remember "Watewer"? Let me jog your memory. FUCKING GAY LAGS. See thats how I perceive zerg whiners. Did the MU impact your performance? Probably. Did lag impact his performance? Quite possibly. In either case..."FUCKING GAY LAGS" is an inappropriate response, because your play was so flawed you should focus on improving that before looking for something to scapegoat your loss on. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:11 Half wrote: See this is exactly why I hate the "oh terran is so OP crowd" (coming from a random player)... Does the TvZ MU favor terran? Yes. It does. But so did it in BW fyi. You players are nowhere near your skill cap. You probably make thousands of mistakes every game, very noob mistakes you'd expect from a non-competitive diamond player. 20 hours of TvZ will actually improve your performance in an MU then any reasonable change blizzard could implement. You're basically just giving up and whining instead of consciously trying to improve your incredibly flawed play. Does that mean you can't vocalize your concerns on the forum? No, of course not. But if you tried consciously improving your play instead of whining, not only would the result be far more tangible then some buff, you'd also be able to make less retardedly whiny sounding feedback. :/. Another thread, another insulting post that adds nothing and just basically says...nothing but "your noobs" Seriously, stop posting. Maybe your awesome but so far all you are is the awesome of "noobers hahha you suck" | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On August 08 2010 13:44 shiNe. wrote: I'm a diamond level terran player, and i find that 80-90% of the time against zerg they try to baneling bust, fail, and then complain about terran being OP. Honestly, it's VERY easy for terran to stop a bust.. As T, you scout, if they arent expanding, and have gas/spawning pool they are most likely doing a BLB. If they are, then simply bunker behind your supply depots, this way you have two layers of structure that the zerg needs to get through, if there is still a hole, fill it... ^_^ Sometimes I even float my factory over/build it as a part of my wall.(BTW i do mech against zerg, like everyone should) If this baneling bust fails (which it will), salvage your bunkers, the zerg will most likely try to tech to mutas to harass you, by this time you should have 2 thors up. Get an engi bay and turret up your minerals and gg push the zerg. (you should have approx. 8 marines, 2 tanks and 2 thors). While you are doing this push, your CC should be landing in your natural. Now, why is it that EVERY zerg i play against trys an all in BLB? I know a lot of zerg players are complaining about zvt being imbalanced, but honestly BLB does not work, so stop trying. Really curious what the forum has to say about why BLB is so popular, especially the zerg's perspective whether it is regarding BLB, balance issues or whatever. I might just be crazy or something and you guys will be all like "those are just noob zergs", but legitimately 80-90% of zerg will try to BLB. But tbh, I find zerg to be a push over as a mech based terran player. because out of all the strats that inevitably fail against T the BLB has a higher win %. I personally don't use teh BLB because I know that it's cheesy play and easy to counter but it can get you quite a bit of wins | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:14 Synwave wrote: Another thread, another insulting post that adds nothing and just basically says...nothing but "your noobs" Seriously, stop posting. Maybe your awesome but so far all you are is the awesome of "noobers hahha you suck" Did you even read? Because your comment made zero sense lol.. I'm saying getting better at the game is a more productive use of energy for 90% of the players then whining on the forums that doing the latter just seems to be looking for an easy way out. (also its you're noobs :/) I hear hellions / marauder / banshee are extremely slow. Oh wait... I hear terran can transition from a late game mech army into hellions/marauder/banshee in like a minute or something lul. owai. | ||
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Anon06
United States203 Posts
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:18 Half wrote: Did you even read? Because your comment made zero sense lol.. I'm saying getting better at the game is a more productive use of energy for 90% of the players then whining on the forums that doing the latter just seems to be looking for an easy way out. (also its you're noobs :/) I hear terran can transition from a late game mech army into hellions/marauder/banshee in like a minute or something lul. owai. Do you even read? Because your comment made zero sense lol... I'm saying getting better at the game is more productive use of energy for 90% of the players then whining in the forums that doing the latter seems to be... holy crap...!.. Your right... Im you! shit! must stop now! | ||
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Azile
United States339 Posts
On August 08 2010 14:50 chrisSquire wrote: i play random. have played maybe 2000 games zvt since beta .. No you didn't. Sorry i'm calling bullshit on that, you haven't played 2000 games of one matchup in a couple months of beta and 2 weeks of release. You'd be fairly hard pressed to play 2000 1v1 games of any matchup period in that timeframe unless you're a pro who does nothing but play the game. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Do you even read? Because your comment made zero sense lol... I'm saying getting better at the game is more productive use of energy for 90% of the players then whining in the forums that doing the latter seems to be... holy crap...!.. Your right... Im you! shit! must stop now! wut. (also its "you're right) | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On August 08 2010 13:57 shiNe. wrote: terran mech army is SO immobile and zerg armies are RIDICULOUSLY mobile. Why don't you try some roach burrow play, nydus worm, infestor mind control, expand and tech to ultras or something like that? this is like the cliche of the week. burrow roach's don't work against a competent player, you loose two attack volleys as they destroy your roach's w/ sweeps n such. nydus worm takes a long time to build in their base and pops out 1 dude at a time (Ie it doesn't work against really anyone). MC is cool and is used in comp play (too bad they nerfed one of zergs only moderate units). Zerg does expand and teching to ultras is easier said than done (also not very effective). tbh w/ tank ground power and thor/viking air power it's kind of silly to expect a zerg player to beat T in any way except macro, and even then zerg has to take at least 1 base more than the T and has to harass mineral lines and such. Someone mentioned that terrans have a lot more all ins and that their all ins are better and this is true. While something like this wouldn't matter too much normally, because T can wall in extremely effectively and there is no reason to not wall their isn't any danger of a back stab from z. | ||
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Jintetsu
Sweden152 Posts
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Zerksys
United States569 Posts
On August 08 2010 13:57 shiNe. wrote: terran mech army is SO immobile and zerg armies are RIDICULOUSLY mobile. Why don't you try some roach burrow play, nydus worm, infestor mind control, expand and tech to ultras or something like that? I'm so tired of posts like this. Let me give it to everyone straight right now. This is going to be a long one so prepare yourself for a long read. To all the people terran players who have said in the past that tvz is not the SLIGHTEST bit inbalanced, let me ask you this. Have you ever played tvz in large quantities from the zerg side of the equation? Let me tell you. It is very very frustrating. Like many people have said in the various posts; playing against a macro terran as zerg is basically a game of let's see how well I can out-expand him and how hard I can keep bashing my head against a wall and from how many different angles. At the same time I'm bashing my head against the wall, I have to make sure not to bash too hard or else he'll walk his army into my base and take it out. Let's walk through a typical game of tvz. Early game: You have to drone scout. I don't care what anyone says about this on this subject. You absolutely have to drone scout. Terran just has way too many options to cheese and take the game (oh wait it's not cheese because it's not ALL IN). If he's going to bunker rush you, you have to know it. If he's going early reapers, you have to know. If he's going a 2 rax marine rush, you have to know. If he's going to proxy buildings, you have to know. Also the scout has to be early because if you send out a scout too late, the wall will be up. Then guess what you have to do to scout? Wait for that overlord to slowly hover its way slower than my 72 year old grandmother with joint problems to get a look at terran's base. Then in order to get a good look at what terran's doing you have to loose 100 minerals and suicide that overlord into his base. If he placed his tech well, you may not even get a chance to see that if you don't come from the right direction. All the while you have to be wary that he has not sent out some a reaper anywhere on the map. Also how you have to know exactly when is the right time to take your expansion because everyone knows that a 1 base terran can easily overwhelm a single base zerg. During the process of taking your natural or some other expansion you must make sure he doesn't have an all in infantry army sitting in the shadows behind his base. Now what does terran have to do to scout you? Scan your base using an OC which terran won't skip anyways. What does terran have to watch out for? One thing: baneling busts. I'll talk more on the subject of baneling busts later Early Midgame: Ok so now assuming you've survived the early game harass that terrans almost always go for (it's so easy to do that I don't blame terrans for going early harass). You have your first expansion up. You're now in a good position to be fighting against the terran army. Now what do you have to do? You have to attack. This is the part that is up for debate. It has been in my experience that you have to attack and at least take out some of the terran's army because if you let him amass a big ball of terran army, then one good push and you loose. I haven't had any experience in not attacking and trying to outmacro a terran before, so please tell me if I'm wrong. You have to IMO at least do some sort of army trade. Now how do you do this? Well ground units are out of the question because chances are early mid game he's probably sitting on 1 base still or is attempting to take his second expansion. Now this is a critical time where I win a lot of my games against terran. If I can push out from my base and push my 2 base army against his one base army I can probably with good micro win this little skirmish (keep in mind that this is not taking into account that your army composition is good) and delay his expansion. It is at this point I try to deny him his expansion for as long as possible and if I can succeed, then I'm in a good position. Trouble is that what he can a this point do is say, "you know what screw this I'm going to throw down a planetary fortress." It is at this point that this gives a zerg player a VERY hard time. The zerg player has to think about the possibility of late game and take an additional expansion. All the while making sure that terran doesn't drop a medivac full of marauders to deny the expansion going up. What does the terran player do? He sits in his base with tanks on the ridge and his army in his natural. He does have to worry about mutas, but hey 2 turrets takes care of that problem, and honestly who doesn't get at least 1 thor in tvz. Late midgame: At the point where terran has turrets and thors, mutas become useless as a harassment unit. Basically there comes a point where you're throwing away more resources in making the mutas than you're taking away from the terran. All the while terran's sitting on 2 bases relaxing and macroing. Now what can the zerg player do to combat this turtle style? You could take double expand and take a 3rd and a 4th, but if terran spots it he pushes and you die. You could try to fast tech to hive, but then that also puts a zerg player in a place of extreme vulnerability. You can't just attack head on into his army because of that planitary fortress and all the tanks will just obliterate anything you send at him. Then if you loose your army he counterpushes and then the zerg player just looses. The zerg player has to find a way to attack this growing ball of terran mech and sometimes bio. So he turns to as the quote at the beginning says: nydus worms, burrowed roaches, drops, mutas, and infestor mind control. As explained before, a decent terran will have missile turrets everywhere. Burrowed roaches can at best get you some decent scouting. Tell me what kind of terran player doesn't have at least one missile turret for either roaches or mutas. It has to be a REALLY TERRIBLY placed missile turret to not detect a huge mass of burrowed roaches under the feet of the terran's main army. Also once the terran player figures out that the roaches are there, all they have to do is get one good scan off and half the roaches die. Nydus worms are great. I've used the many times, but tell me all you zerg players out there. In all the times that you've ever used nydus worms. Has it once ever been something of a reliable strategy? The answer is that most of the time it relies on total secrecy. If the terran player finds out that there is a nydus worm coming up, you may as well just cancel it because a nydus worm is very easy to focus down and the units don't come up fast enough to really defend it. Also a nydus worm is not free. For every nydus worm you kill that is 100/100 lost. For the last time terrans. Nydus worming is not a reliable strategy, especially since when you're on 2 base and we have to nydus inside your base and hope you don't spot it. Mutas are very mobile, but get shut down completely by thors and missile turrets. AND WOULD SOME PLEASE TELL ME what infestor mind control has to do with the mobility of a zerg army. Late game: Ok so assuming you've lasted this long the terran player has probably expanded. I'm going to assume for arguments sake that you are still somehow 1 expo up on him. So terran now is on 3 base whereas zerg is on 4. It is at this point that the efficiency of terran mech does go down because of hive tech units, but quite honestly it takes zerg players such an investment to get here in the first place that it relies on a very well played game for the zerg player. So for all you terran players out there who say terran mech is countered so easiliy by ultras and brood lords. Let me ask you this. If ultras cost the same as thors and ultras are extremely effective against terran mech then why do we have to be a base up? I mean seriously we already have taken the time and energy to get to hive tech, why should we still have to be a base up. The answer is simple. Ultras aren't as effective as you think they are. The only reason terran players think ultralisks are effective is because we zerg players can produce them seemingly a lot faster than terran players can produce thors. The fact can simply not be ignored though that thors and ultralisks cost the exact same amount to make. Zerg has to burn through so many resources to stop a late game terran. It is this reason why the zerg must have a lot of expansions. Now admittingly in late game where terran has 4 bases and zerg has 5 it becomes easier to abuse the mobility of the zerg army. The problem lies in the fact that if a drop gets taken out it's a lot of resources to loose. If a zerg army gets cornered, it's a lot of resources to loose. All the while you have to be wary of terran sending 4 hellions into a base to toast your drones into fried up little crisps. Brood lords are hardcountered by vikings plain and simple. If the terran reacts well enough to the zerg's tech switches then it's just game over. The fight: Terran players tell us zerg players to flank and micro and not to just A move an entire army of roaches, lings, banelings, ultras, mutalisks, and whatever else you may have into their army. At the same time what are terran players doing? They're A moving their armies into ours! Sure sieging tanks, and stimming infantry does take some micro, but seriously it's a lot easier than terran players make it out to be. In summary a zerg player has a harder time microing an army than the terran players do. The conclusion: The match up itself is very hard for both sides. I won't sell terran players short. They do have to deal with a bunch of stuff from a zerg player. I believe though that because of all the shortcomings of the zerg as a whole that a zerg player does have to play significantly better and make nearly no mistakes in order to take a game from a terran player. It is also psychologically demanding for the zerg player to see his army destroyed time and time again trying to break your army of equal food count and apparent size. The only time that a zerg player has to really press an advantage is that small window of opportunity where terran does not have tanks and terran is walled in. The baneling bust is a one way for us to achieve an easy victory. Don't blame us for using it when you as terran have multiple tricks of the same kind. This is basically a summary of all the zerg arguments for why terran "better" than zerg at this present stage. Counterarguments now. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
awesome way to feel better about yourself bravo | ||
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On August 08 2010 15:11 Half wrote: See this is exactly why I hate the "oh terran is so OP crowd" (coming from a random player)... Does the TvZ MU favor terran? Yes. It does. But so did it in BW fyi. But at the same time, we're nowhere near our skill cap. You make thousands of mistakes every game, very noob mistakes you'd expect from a non-competitive diamond player. 20 hours of TvZ will actually improve your performance in an MU then any reasonable change blizzard could implement. You're basically just giving up and whining instead of consciously trying to improve your incredibly flawed play. Does that mean you can't vocalize your concerns on the forum? No, of course not. But if you tried consciously improving your play instead of whining, not only would the result be far more tangible then some buff, you'd also be able to make less retardedly whiny sounding feedback. :/. You guys watch TLOwnage? Funny shit right? Remember "Watewer"? Let me jog your memory. FUCKING GAY LAGS. See thats how I perceive zerg whiners. Did the MU impact your performance? Probably. Did lag impact his performance? Quite possibly. In either case..."FUCKING GAY LAGS" is an inappropriate response, because your play was so flawed you should focus on improving that before looking for something to scapegoat your loss on. zerg also had burrowing units that raped bio and a spell that made their units invulnerable to all of terrans units.. TvZ wasnt very favored in Bw, not the way it is in SC2 | ||
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Gnax
Sweden490 Posts
Anyways, after killing his SCV I put down the nest, and if he scans my nest I just expand, knowing he'll prepare for a baneling bust. I also abort my baneling bust if I see that he walled off with rax and engineering bay (yeah one guy actually did this while playing blind, I just loled and thought about how many other zergs must've done BLB against him before me.) In my opinion baneling nest is a pretty solid opener, and I prefer it over fast expand and getting harrassed to death. There's nothing "all in" with it, unless you actually try to bust in when it's clearly not even possible. I only lost one game where I went through with it and that was a really close call, I busted down his wall and killed most of his army but he was able to kill off my zerglings without losing any workers. He didn't have enough to counter push and prevent my expansion and I wasn't able to finish him. So it became a pretty long game where he outplayed me and won. I think I'm something like 6-1 against Terran with baneling bust. And my only loss was against a guy who was better than me, so that seems right. There's many factors that play in, and you can't just mindlessly baneling bust every game no matter what, that's just pathetic. Lately I've been cheesed before I can even do a baneling bust so you have to adapt. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Mech army is not bad until you reach the top level of players where they have basic mechanics down. Why is that you ask? Most of the terrans at your rank got there by 1 base all-ins every single fucking game. At least 80% of the terrans I played in a management game had the mechanics of a D scrub and don't actually deserve their rank. So when I'm pitted against a terran mech in a macro game, I'm content. | ||
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Lazix
Australia378 Posts
Can someone please give me an example of a Terran all-in build? Terran can absolutely transition out of all their early harassment builds, and very safely too I'll add. A baneling bust on the other hand is a true all-in build, because if it fails - leave, you're too far behind and you're not coming back. | ||
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