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kzn, your whole argument can be refuted by the following scenario:
Imagine if MBS and automine were patched into brood war. By your logic, this would decrease the amount of actions players need to take to execute their strategies, leaving the players with a set of unused actions which they could spend on greater multitasking, micro and other things.
However, it would not change their build order, their unit composition goal, their timings or anything else that we could agree is "strategy." Those factors are all limitations of the game itself. Just because the players would have more time to harass, micro and use other TACTICS doesn't mean the game suddenly gets more strategically deep. It would still have all the exact same strategies that BW has right now, regardless of how much APM it takes to execute them.
Therefore, requiring more or less APM does not add or subtract from the strategic depth of a strategy game. The strategic depth is a limitation of the game itself, and personally I think BW and SC2 are fairly close strategically (right now) so this whole argument is worthless.
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16978 Posts
Just because something is the biggest doesn't mean it's particularly successful. SC2 may have sold well in the states and in Europe, but it's simply not selling as well as it was projected to in Korea.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea
You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010.
my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here.
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On August 06 2010 14:00 Kennigit wrote:OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010. my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here.
I simply don't see OP's issue as being an "issue".
SC2 is free for WoW player subscription. It can be bought on time cards. It can finally be bought on retail for 60 USD.
Obviously most players would go for timecards. The sales figures don't include timecards. Therefore, the sale projections are inaccurate with regard to Korea.
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On August 05 2010 13:43 OHtRUe wrote:
If you even argue that SC BW is 10x the game SC2 will ever be then you are dumb. End of discussion, there is no factor that makes SC2 more fun then BW other than "LOL ITS EASIER"
How to sell a modern day video game: Make it as easy and accesible as possible no matter how bad it makes the game. I mean look at CoD, Halo 2,3 , any mmorpg, its about time that Blizzard is catching on and it seems like it has worked
I'm not even going to join the argument, but things like this really annoy me.
"There is no way you can even debate this. If you try, you are stupid because I am obviously right. Can we all go home now"?
You can feel the smugness miles away. Please please please stop acting superior. If you really think that there is nothing to discuss, then please stop discussing. If your views on this are really so set in stone, posting here is nothing but trolling.
By the way: I would think that the best and most objective way to quantify a game's suitability as a sport would be the number of people willing to watch it. You can debate your skill caps and your graphics and your micro and your macro all you want, but what makes a spectator sport are the spectators, not the players. I could make up 10 games which require 10 times more skill than either Starcraft, but none of that matters if no one cares to watch. We'll just have to see.
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![[image loading]](http://funny.picturepie.com/images/arguing_internet_retarded.jpg)
I'm probably going to get warned by a humorless mod but ah well; I think that should lighten the tension.
And as a person who loved Brood Wars... I can honestly say I enjoy Starcraft 2 way more than I ever did, than the predecessor. Of course you SC:BW TL vets would obviously object that, but that should come as no surprise, since you've played BW all these years. Either way, SC2 is more user-friendly to newer plays- is that so wrong? Whether it becomes popular or not in S.Korea, the newly announced GomTV tournament is going to spark mass interests to the world if not S.Korea.
User was warned for this post
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On August 06 2010 14:06 nihoh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2010 14:00 Kennigit wrote:OP: Starcraft 2 had a meek launch in Korea You: Starcraft 2 had the biggest PC launch in 2010. my instinct is to copy and paste that over and over until you get it. instead, i implore you to F5 till you see the issue here. I simply don't see OP's issue as being an "issue". SC2 is free for WoW player subscription. It can be bought on time cards. It can finally be bought on retail for 60 USD. Obviously most players would go for timecards. The sales figures don't include timecards. Therefore, the sale projections are inaccurate with regard to Korea.
We are not talking about sales figures in Korea. We are talking about time spent playing games by players, which is how Korea rates games since 1/2 the games at PC Bangs are free anyways. Seriously, if you go into a PC room here you will find 2 maybe 3 people playing. Hell, I see more people playing Kart Rider~
**Edit**
But I do agree with people saying that once, if, SC2 games start appearing on TV here then more people will play. You cannot believe how "bandwagony" Koreans are.
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Quite honestly, if it does very well in the rest of the world, it may not need to do amazingly well in Korea for it to succeed.
Sure, that'd be nice, but from what we've seen so far it will be able to support itself quite well outside of Korea.
I'd also like to point out that if you compared Starcraft 1, pre-Brood War, a week after its release to Starcraft 2 a week after its release the comparison would likely be much more in SC2's favor.
You can't reasonably compare a game with 12 years of balancing behind it aimed solely at making it as even a playing field as possible to a game that's been playable for a matter of months.
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I would just like to point out that in South Korea, SC2 is free to play at the moment with the open beta thing that they are doing.
I would imagine it has a pretty big impact on sales when people can just make a b.net account and play it for free.
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There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
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someone posted on the Odds and Ends
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=139557
that PC Bang owners are complaining about SC2 because instead of paying $60USD (or whatever the Korean price was) to purchase the game, blizzard forced them to purchase game time just like WoW subscription. the fee for SC2 alone was 20% of the normal fee charged at PC Bang, which is ridiculously high from a business perspective.
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On August 06 2010 20:30 wholegrain wrote:
There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
That makes absolutely NO sense at all. I don't know if you were trying to be funny or what but yes, they took out some spells. They also added more than BW ever had, this is including the queen and larvae, Terran mules, Protoss chrono boost, and unit spells in general. Holy cow, have you even played the game?
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On August 06 2010 20:30 wholegrain wrote:
There's actually less strategy because they removed things like dark swarm, lurkers and put some uber imba units like thors, which really serve no purpose at all.
also mutalisk micro, tank hold fire micro, patrol micro~
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Calgary25979 Posts
Why do we still look to Korea? They're no more relevent in SC2 than China or the internet or any other country at this point.
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On August 06 2010 20:35 koOma wrote:
GomTV.
Yeah, no shit. That is great news.
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On August 06 2010 22:34 Chill wrote:
Why do we still look to Korea? They're no more relevent in SC2 than China or the internet or any other country at this point.
Chill you make a fairly interesting point here... I still look to Korea because they are like the holy land for e-sports.
to the OP- Isn't a week after release a bit early to be callin the game a flop?
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yes it's only been a week which is too early to conclude anything.
Not to mention the fact that there are two expansions to come with who knows how many patches that will follow.
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Korea is not as important as people believe. Even though Starcraft was a very successfull as an e-sport in Korea it never spread abroad. Starcraft II as an e-sport is not dependet on a huge success in Korea, its dependet on a success as an e-sport in the US and Europe, probably more US than Europe since they are the biggest market for video games.
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EPT
