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The unit AI in SC2 is vastly superior to its predecessor in BW, which is a welcome change. One contentious issue with the AI is the lack of overkill with siege tanks, and the difficulties this creates in approaching a sieged tank line that is defended by a good balance of units (particularly for Zerg).
In BW, you could take advantage of siege tank overkill and swarm tank lines with good timing, good unit placement and sufficient numbers. Unfortunately, SC2 is a different story, and it does not help that terran mech has air and ground range superiority as well.
Now, in no way am I suggesting that the situation is unbalanced or cannot be overcome. The game isn't even live yet, and we can't make any assumption based on the beta alone. I do have a suggestion though that would add a bit more strategy, create more viewer tension, and make sense lore-wise.
My idea is that tanks be given a passive ability that makes it so that only tanks who are within a predetermined distance from each other exhibit smart-targeting behaviour. A separate range circle would be displayed around each sieged tank that would denote this area (and could also mark the minimum range of the tank - something that should already be in the game). Tanks who are "linked" would be able to form a chain - meaning that as long as a tank is in range of one other tank that is "linked" they would benefit from the AI boost. The "link" circle could change colour when activated, and the tank model itself could have a light on it go from say, red to green, to warn the opposing player of the tank positioning. This ability would make tank placement more important, and would also open up sieged tanks to any AoE attacks and abilities that can hit them (although there are admittedly few units with AoE that survive getting within tank range).
This wouldn't change Terran army placement too much. Tanks are usually grouped together anyways, but in the case of some tanks not being "linked", it would make a difference, and add some more strategy to tank engagement (catching opponent off-guard, force field etc.). EMP could temporarily disable the link ability as it does with cloaking, but TvT isn't really the matchup in which this is needed.
Its a little late in development to be generating new ideas for units but I think its at least an interesting concept. Correct me if I'm terribly, terribly wrong.
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Burrowed infestors using infested terran, or unburrown them and neural parasite (after fungal growthing the rest of the army). The AI is totally teh suck when you spawn infested terrans and your infestors never actually get targeted.
Or burrowed roaches, if you don't mind them getting wasted.
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I actually like this idea, it dosent take away much from the tanks while definatly making things a bit better for the other races. Honestly the only ONLY place i see tanks being imba currently is vs hydralisks. hydras are only 50/75/1 cheaper than a tank. A group of 4 tanks should kill 3+ hydralisks on the first volley with smartfire. Thats pretty insane to me.
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On July 10 2010 04:56 Zoltan wrote:
I actually like this idea, it dosent take away much from the tanks while definatly making things a bit better for the other races. Honestly the only ONLY place i see tanks being imba currently is vs hydralisks. hydras are only 50/75/1 cheaper than a tank. A group of 4 tanks should kill 3+ hydralisks on the first volley with smartfire. Thats pretty insane to me.
starcraft doesn't work that way.
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I really like these ideas.
I don't think the opposing player should be warned about the Tanks being linked, though. They should have to gauge that based on their experience.
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On July 10 2010 05:07 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 04:56 Zoltan wrote:
I actually like this idea, it dosent take away much from the tanks while definatly making things a bit better for the other races. Honestly the only ONLY place i see tanks being imba currently is vs hydralisks. hydras are only 50/75/1 cheaper than a tank. A group of 4 tanks should kill 3+ hydralisks on the first volley with smartfire. Thats pretty insane to me. starcraft doesn't work that way.
What he said ^^
You can have less food/mineral/gas army and lose to a much greater one, this is why looking at those stats when watching/casting a game isn't amazing.
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I'm aware, i just think that the differential between siege tanks and what they can kill is a smidgen too great when you talk about hydras.
I think its the same with storm vs terran bio tbh. just my opinion... im not on the design team yankow  , its not like im gonna go change it.
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just give tanks projectile attax kinda like marauders, and tank imba overkill problem solved
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The approach to terran mech as a zerg is much like in starcraft 1, you never ever attack a siege line head on, like you said they are too strong for that. try counter attacks and taking out expos where there is little defending, mech is still isn't mobile. so long as you never attack it head on, expand like crazy, and harrass him, the terran war machine will fall.
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It's an interesting idea, and definitely adds to the lategame... Siege mode just seems too easy to get, and tanks just never die
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if you bring in overkill for tanks then you've got to bring in overkill for banelings and all other units.
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Siege attack should just be slower, if anything...
There's tons that needs to be changed with T with respect to the TvZ matchup. The only way a Zerg can "win" is if the Terran does a stupid strat or completely messes up one of the 5-10 different variations of strategies they can do.
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On July 10 2010 05:56 tarsier wrote:
if you bring in overkill for tanks then you've got to bring in overkill for banelings and all other units.
this.
Of units that benefit from smart-fire tanks are just the ones that you stupidly run at the most.
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On July 10 2010 05:59 Amber[LighT] wrote:
Siege attack should just be slower, if anything...
There's tons that needs to be changed with T with respect to the TvZ matchup. The only way a Zerg can "win" is if the Terran does a stupid strat or completely messes up one of the 5-10 different variations of strategies they can do.
Explain why zerg and protoss are winning all the top tournies if terran is so tough. Balance tweaks definitely need to be made, but IMO terran is the weakest race right now. They have no mobility and that is abused repeatedly by the high level players. Listen to the pros talk, none claim that their own race is the strongest ever.
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On July 10 2010 04:10 Frobert wrote:
The unit AI in SC2 is vastly superior to its predecessor in BW, which is a welcome change. One contentious issue with the AI is the lack of overkill with siege tanks, and the difficulties this creates in approaching a sieged tank line that is defended by a good balance of units (particularly for Zerg).
In BW, you could take advantage of siege tank overkill and swarm tank lines with good timing, good unit placement and sufficient numbers. Unfortunately, SC2 is a different story, and it does not help that terran mech has air and ground range superiority as well.
Now, in no way am I suggesting that the situation is unbalanced or cannot be overcome. The game isn't even live yet, and we can't make any assumption based on the beta alone. I do have a suggestion though that would add a bit more strategy, create more viewer tension, and make sense lore-wise.
My idea is that tanks be given a passive ability that makes it so that only tanks who are within a predetermined distance from each other exhibit smart-targeting behaviour. A separate range circle would be displayed around each sieged tank that would denote this area (and could also mark the minimum range of the tank - something that should already be in the game). Tanks who are "linked" would be able to form a chain - meaning that as long as a tank is in range of one other tank that is "linked" they would benefit from the AI boost. The "link" circle could change colour when activated, and the tank model itself could have a light on it go from say, red to green, to warn the opposing player of the tank positioning. This ability would make tank placement more important, and would also open up sieged tanks to any AoE attacks and abilities that can hit them (although there are admittedly few units with AoE that survive getting within tank range).
This wouldn't change Terran army placement too much. Tanks are usually grouped together anyways, but in the case of some tanks not being "linked", it would make a difference, and add some more strategy to tank engagement (catching opponent off-guard, force field etc.). EMP could temporarily disable the link ability as it does with cloaking, but TvT isn't really the matchup in which this is needed.
Its a little late in development to be generating new ideas for units but I think its at least an interesting concept. Correct me if I'm terribly, terribly wrong.
Tanks are already weak. They are extremely slow, immobile, cannot attack air, and countered hard by melee. They need buffs if anything.
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On July 10 2010 05:56 tarsier wrote:
if you bring in overkill for tanks then you've got to bring in overkill for banelings and all other units.
Agreed. Either it applies to all races or none at all.
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On July 10 2010 05:56 tarsier wrote:
if you bring in overkill for tanks then you've got to bring in overkill for banelings and all other units.
This is already the case. Please get your facts straight before throwing around wild suggestions.
Every ranged unit in starcraft 2 does already overkill. (Try shooting a zergling with 20 stalkers, they will all shoot if in range)
Banelings don't because they are considered melee, and considering that they suicide themselves just to kill 1 zergling ... we could call this overkilling.
The reason that tanks are the only unit not overkilling is that their shots hit instantly.
Their shots hit the target at exactly the same point in time they shoot. The other tanks then "recognize" that the target is dead before shooting at it themselves.
They are not in any way smarter than the other units, their projectiles are just instantly hitting the target.
The "solution" to delay the impact for just a fraction of a second, and tanks would overkill again.
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On July 10 2010 06:19 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 04:10 Frobert wrote:
The unit AI in SC2 is vastly superior to its predecessor in BW, which is a welcome change. One contentious issue with the AI is the lack of overkill with siege tanks, and the difficulties this creates in approaching a sieged tank line that is defended by a good balance of units (particularly for Zerg).
In BW, you could take advantage of siege tank overkill and swarm tank lines with good timing, good unit placement and sufficient numbers. Unfortunately, SC2 is a different story, and it does not help that terran mech has air and ground range superiority as well.
Now, in no way am I suggesting that the situation is unbalanced or cannot be overcome. The game isn't even live yet, and we can't make any assumption based on the beta alone. I do have a suggestion though that would add a bit more strategy, create more viewer tension, and make sense lore-wise.
My idea is that tanks be given a passive ability that makes it so that only tanks who are within a predetermined distance from each other exhibit smart-targeting behaviour. A separate range circle would be displayed around each sieged tank that would denote this area (and could also mark the minimum range of the tank - something that should already be in the game). Tanks who are "linked" would be able to form a chain - meaning that as long as a tank is in range of one other tank that is "linked" they would benefit from the AI boost. The "link" circle could change colour when activated, and the tank model itself could have a light on it go from say, red to green, to warn the opposing player of the tank positioning. This ability would make tank placement more important, and would also open up sieged tanks to any AoE attacks and abilities that can hit them (although there are admittedly few units with AoE that survive getting within tank range).
This wouldn't change Terran army placement too much. Tanks are usually grouped together anyways, but in the case of some tanks not being "linked", it would make a difference, and add some more strategy to tank engagement (catching opponent off-guard, force field etc.). EMP could temporarily disable the link ability as it does with cloaking, but TvT isn't really the matchup in which this is needed.
Its a little late in development to be generating new ideas for units but I think its at least an interesting concept. Correct me if I'm terribly, terribly wrong. Tanks are already weak. They are extremely slow, immobile, cannot attack air, and countered hard by melee. They need buffs if anything.
No, tanks are very powerful and should not need buffs. Your points are only valid if you mass only tanks, any player would have a mix of units that complement the tanks. There is no better offensive support unit than the tank.
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Please stop taking away things that makes starcraft the great game it is.
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EPT
