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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 17 2010 22:05 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:01 FrozenArbiter wrote:No kid, Please stop calling people kid, it's a bit disrespectful. mmk. sorry just a bit grumpy tdaaay. Anyway....yeah. I seriously don't get the logic of pre-emptively defending a corperations right to charge you more money. I mean, I have some serious respect for almost everyone who works at Blizzard, I'm a huge blizzard fan, and doing what you're doing is just absurd and counterproductive.
Don't know if you mean me or Blizzard by "you", I'm definitely on your side here :p
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On June 17 2010 22:05 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 21:49 Half wrote:Load of bullshit. If operating SC2 was anything but overwhelmingly profitable, it would not have been made. Realize you are now suggesting in order for SC2 to be profitable 1% of the population needs to purchase a service that is going to cost a fraction of the games total price. That would mean that SC2 was operating so close to the middle line that a 1% difference in profit will make or break the product. That kind of operating ethic is not something Blizzard would do. tremendous amount of ongoing cost What operating costs? I'll be fair, it could require a substantial amount of development costs. But operating costs? No. Right there are no operating costs once you operate something. Hardware won't fail you. Ever. Admin staff, technicians? Blah, you can do it all on your own. Your superman. Kiddo. Wee, now I see what your about. Calling others kid makes you feel more mature eh? Besides I never claimed what you said. I said that Blizz, like any company, has to make sure that they maximize their profits. Thats basic economics for you right there. If that means cutting costs and not providing service X for free then that is what will be done. Tough real world out there I know. That has nothing to do with if the development of SC2 is profitable at all. Blizz is still doing way more than any other company out there. BNet 2.0s main features (though its a small list) are still free - and no that does not mean Blizz can run this for free on their end.
Realize that they're are more ways of maximizing profit then charging consumers more for core features. You look at Starcraft, that games among the highest selling PC games...period. They didn't do that by charging consumers for patch 1.24 to offset development costs for it.
I have nothing wrong with Blizzard making some cool new service up and charging us for it. Premium maps (as long as they're good), whatever else they cook up I'm all for it. Personally I think all the stuff they sold for WoW was right on the money with the sole exception of not requiring players to pay 100g for that flying unicorn mount.
I do have something wrong with just being cheap, and charging for stuff we've had as an integral community and gameplay function for fifteen years.
Don't know if you mean me or Blizzard by "you", I'm definitely on your side here 
Yeah I know, just came back from a morning class after barely finishing a 12 page assignment through the night (curse u tl :D), I probably was a bit out of line.
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On June 17 2010 22:08 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:05 nyshak wrote:On June 17 2010 21:49 Half wrote:Load of bullshit. If operating SC2 was anything but overwhelmingly profitable, it would not have been made. Realize you are now suggesting in order for SC2 to be profitable 1% of the population needs to purchase a service that is going to cost a fraction of the games total price. That would mean that SC2 was operating so close to the middle line that a 1% difference in profit will make or break the product. That kind of operating ethic is not something Blizzard would do. tremendous amount of ongoing cost What operating costs? I'll be fair, it could require a substantial amount of development costs. But operating costs? No. Right there are no operating costs once you operate something. Hardware won't fail you. Ever. Admin staff, technicians? Blah, you can do it all on your own. Your superman. Kiddo. Wee, now I see what your about. Calling others kid makes you feel more mature eh? Besides I never claimed what you said. I said that Blizz, like any company, has to make sure that they maximize their profits. Thats basic economics for you right there. If that means cutting costs and not providing service X for free then that is what will be done. Tough real world out there I know. That has nothing to do with if the development of SC2 is profitable at all. Blizz is still doing way more than any other company out there. BNet 2.0s main features (though its a small list) are still free - and no that does not mean Blizz can run this for free on their end. Realize that they're are more ways of maximizing profit then charging consumers more for core features. You look at Starcraft, that games among the highest selling PC games...period. They didn't do that by charging consumers for patch 1.24 to offset development costs for it.
If cross-realm play is a core feature, yes. Its just that I doubt that. Core features are what the core or majority of players will use. Most players will play SC2 for fun and will be content playing in their region only. This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. In that scenario, maximizing profits probably means providing the basics for free to keep a constant stream of new players over the years (by selling boxes) and charging for extra features. I don't like that too, I'd love to have everything in my life for free but sadly thats not how things work. I'm not trying to defend Blizz, I'm trying to put things in perspective. Blizz are not the evil doers some here make them out to be. They are a company.
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Wont be paying an online fee for rts its ridiculus.
Spare me with blizzard making no money out of games , what do you think they are , unicef or something.
Just because they might not overcharge a game , which thats the way is happening right now , alpha protocol 60 euros any1 for that shitty game ? , doesnt mean they selling it for free to help the african kids or something.
blizzard started the bnet , ages ago when it was a small company and could have sustained it no prob , heack hackers could play for free with garena meaning it had so much unused badwith.
2010 and internet technology is basically lightyears ahead , heh in some countries is free , yet some blue posters come with idiotic arguments about players have to pay to play into another region , cause their problems that we dint have in the past , when net was in stone age Oo.
Add the th ing that there gonna be 2 more expansion for this game , meaning we get to have to buy the VERY SAME GAME 3 TIMES Oo just to play some different single campaign - like anyone give a f$uck about it - and it gets more funny
It seems to me that they just want to milk consumers beyond belief cause having a ferrari and a pool isnt enough nowdays and some want more .
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On June 17 2010 22:17 nyshak wrote:
If cross-realm play is a core feature, yes. Its just that I doubt that. Core features are what the core or majority of players will use. Most players will play SC2 for fun and will be content playing in their region only. This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. In that scenario, maximizing profits probably means providing the basics for free to keep a constant stream of new players over the years (by selling boxes) and charging for extra features. I don't like that too, I'd love to have everything in my life for free but sadly thats not how things work. I'm not trying to defend Blizz, I'm trying to put things in perspective. Blizz are not the evil doers some here make them out to be. They are a company.
Then could we charge for editor then?
Why don't we?
You'll find much of the same reasons apply to to Cross-Realm play.
The only people who would ever use it should have it for free anyway. I mean seriously. Who are the people your penalizing? Pro Gamers, people in the armed services, people who travel a lot, people who are thoroughly integrated into the global community.
Who aren't you exploiting? That guy in his basement.
Amazing. You're like exploiting among the most respected customers in the world. And almost every one of the contributes to the value of your product indirectly.
Charging pro-gamers more is perhaps the most stupidest decision Blizzard could make. It would be like charging mapmakers for more. They're contributing hugely to the value of you're product. It would be to the point where if I bet collectively the mapmaking community has generated more customers then copies they have bought, and to a lesser, but still large extent, the progaming community.
The other people you'd be detrimenting are not audience base you should target for "explotation". Seriously. Thats a really asshat move you know? That frequent flier now has to pay a premium just to have some chill time when hes already away from family and friends, that guy with friends from all across the world who has this really open worldview now pays a premium, and that guy who just wants a little bit of chill time in Afghanistan. wtf.
And that slightly overweight suburban middle class dude in some American small large town who wants a flying pony? Fuck no, he doesn't give a shit.
You want positive exploitation. (lol). Give that downtrodden guy some instant gratification and satisfaction in exchange for money, and reward the progammer, the mapmaker, the internationalist, the guy in armed services, and that businessman who still plays games, all people who contribute to the value of you're product substantially and the gaming community at large just this extremely high quality game without any monetization schemes and other stuff they don't want to put up with.
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On June 17 2010 22:05 nyshak wrote:Besides I never claimed what you said. I said that Blizz, like any company, has to make sure that they maximize their profits. Thats basic economics for you right there. If that means cutting costs and not providing service X for free then that is what will be done. Tough real world out there I know. That has nothing to do with if the development of SC2 is profitable at all.
Be careful not to get carried away to strange conclusions while focusing on the flame exchange with Half. While it is true that the interest of companies is maximizing their profits, the interest of customers is getting the best service or good for their money.
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This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide.
Do you not enjoy watching the sc bw // 2 competitive scene`?
Would you not lend your voice to these players ?
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
YOU SHOULD SUPPORT THE ELITE BECAUSE WITHOUT THEM SC2 will just be another fad on the wall of esports.
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Why do you think they making 3 sc2 ?
Thus buy the same game 3 times lol think about it
the very same game will be purchased 3 times , who here cares about single campaigns.
then the same bandwidth is been used with D games and do they share with wow now ?
since they merge all acounts with bnet or something
If thats the case they have offset their maintenance costs and hardware ones x10
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@ Half:
The other people you'd be detrimenting are not audience base you should target for "explotation". Seriously. Thats a really asshat move you know? That frequent flier now has to pay a premium just to have some chill time when hes already away from family and friends, that guy with friends from all across the world who has this really open worldview now pays a premium, and that guy who just wants a little bit of chill time in Afghanistan. wtf.
Sadly thats how it ends up most of the time doesn't it? You can only exploit someone if hes got an interest. That guy with friends all across the globe might be the nicest person in history, but the thing is he's got an interest in playing worldwide, something the majority of your customers don't have in my eyes. Yes it sucks, but charging money for X because Y amount of people want it is just how things work on this planet. Utopia won't arrive for quite some time I'm afraid 
Ofc, there's the possibility of increasing your profits by creating positive incentive to buy the game. BNet for one. Its always a trade of: will feature X create enough influx of new players (ie more profits) if its free so that the money we earn > we charge some of our existing playerbase for feature X.
Lets wait and see what Blizz will decide when the time comes. Ofc, showing Blizz that you really really really hate what they might be doing might keep em from doing it ; I did not want to stop anybody from telling them that.
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Nice, the latency also improved when they changed to UDP, went from 700-800 to around 550ms to the Asia server without using any proxy services, US/EU improved a bit too.
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On June 17 2010 22:44 nyshak wrote:@ Half: Show nested quote +
The other people you'd be detrimenting are not audience base you should target for "explotation". Seriously. Thats a really asshat move you know? That frequent flier now has to pay a premium just to have some chill time when hes already away from family and friends, that guy with friends from all across the world who has this really open worldview now pays a premium, and that guy who just wants a little bit of chill time in Afghanistan. wtf.
Sadly thats how it ends up most of the time doesn't it? You can only exploit someone if hes got an interest. That guy with friends all across the globe might be the nicest person in history, but the thing is he's got an interest in playing worldwide, something the majority of your customers don't have in my eyes. Yes it sucks, but charging money for X because Y amount of people want it is just how things work on this planet. Utopia won't arrive for quite some time I'm afraid Ofc, there's the possibility of increasing your profits by creating positive incentive to buy the game. BNet for one. Its always a trade of: will feature X create enough influx of new players (ie more profits) if its free so that the money we earn > we charge some of our existing playerbase for feature X. Lets wait and see what Blizz will decide when the time comes. Ofc, showing Blizz that you really really really hate what they might be doing might keep em from doing it ; I did not want to stop anybody from telling them that.
Look, I'm not argueing ethics. I'm argueing business. Its just a shitty business practice. You have a group of people who basically aren't contributing to the community except as a consumer, and they demand more things to consume. You "exploit" (utilize) them, and sell them monetized things in which they actually want.
Then you have people who are more reciprocal. They are producers, and form the backbone of the community, and are just generally more productive within the context of the game community. These people don't want to be exploited. Moreover, by not exploiting them and fostering there interests, you make the game better because they PRODUCE THINGS FOR FREE. Whether literally (A map or progaming replay), or figuratively (An important community member).
These are going to be the people producing love after you've stopped, and will be providing incentives for your group of consumers to consume long after you've stopped.
Moreover, the second group as a minority. So selling to them is going to produce limited results. I mean, how many people are actually going to buy this? 1% maybe?
For instance, the Korean progaming scene has easily generated more copies for Blizzard then they themselves have actually bought. (or didn't buy )
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On June 17 2010 22:31 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. Would you not lend your voice to these players ?
I would if said players would stop crying about how evil Blizz is and how the sky is falling and kept things in perspective. It won't help us to bitch about Blizz. I believe in constructive criticism. Arguing with Blizz about how cross-realm play would support eSports and utimately will earn them more money than charging for it is great. Telling them to f*** off if they are going to charge money AT ALL won't get us nowhere.
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
So hate me. I can live with that 
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On June 17 2010 22:54 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:31 Madkipz wrote:This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. Would you not lend your voice to these players ? I would if said players would stop crying about how evil Blizz is and how the sky is falling and kept things in perspective. It won't help us to bitch about Blizz. I believe in constructive criticism. Arguing with Blizz about how cross-realm play would support eSports and utimately will earn them more money than charging for it is great. Telling them to f*** off if they are going to charge money AT ALL won't get us nowhere. Show nested quote +
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
So hate me. I can live with that
You haven't provided any constructive criticism this entire thread. Instead, you've rallied against people that have.
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On June 17 2010 22:54 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:31 Madkipz wrote:This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. Would you not lend your voice to these players ? I would if said players would stop crying about how evil Blizz is and how the sky is falling and kept things in perspective. It won't help us to bitch about Blizz. I believe in constructive criticism. Arguing with Blizz about how cross-realm play would support eSports and utimately will earn them more money than charging for it is great. Telling them to f*** off if they are going to charge money AT ALL won't get us nowhere. Show nested quote +
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
So hate me. I can live with that
To be honest, the criticism here of Blizz is far more tame than it was prior to announcing chat-channels would be in the game. There were people talking about walking to their local Blizzard office and firebombing it back then.
It's perfectly rational and fair for people to talk about what this functionality is worth to them. To some it's only worth free. For some it's worth more. For some it's worth a monthly fee.
Personally, I'd be willing to endure $10 for it. Anything more and be as irate as Half. I don't want to have to pay for it. I don't think I should. No one should think they should. But as they all say, we all have a price.
It's good to raise a fuss about the pricing because it'll cause Blizzard to realize there is a sensitivity to these things. WoW just released a poll the other day that asked if players were open to paying extra for an extra character slot. Blizz is definitely feeling out the community in terms of what it'll bear for the cost of the feature. It's just not worth being overly hyperactive about it. It's not like they're deciding pricing this morning. The feature isn't even implemented yet. We'll know more in the future.
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On June 17 2010 22:54 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:54 nyshak wrote:On June 17 2010 22:31 Madkipz wrote:This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. Would you not lend your voice to these players ? I would if said players would stop crying about how evil Blizz is and how the sky is falling and kept things in perspective. It won't help us to bitch about Blizz. I believe in constructive criticism. Arguing with Blizz about how cross-realm play would support eSports and utimately will earn them more money than charging for it is great. Telling them to f*** off if they are going to charge money AT ALL won't get us nowhere.
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
So hate me. I can live with that You haven't provided any constructive criticism this entire thread. Instead, you've rallied against people that have.
Most people on these forums are bashing Blizzard as of late, there's no arguing that I think. "OMG there won't be chat channels (which turned out to be not true), OMG no cross-realm play!!! I AM SO NOT going to buy that game, BLIZZ SUCKS!" etc. yadayada.
I tried to explain why Blizz do what they do and that there's nothing inherently evil in there. So that, once we got past the bashing, we could come up with something better. If you look at the first guy I quoted, he's one of those guys who jump to conclusions. The rest of this has been our private argument.
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I believe many of us here have made constructive criticism. Stop blowing things out of proportion.
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On June 17 2010 23:03 nyshak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 22:54 Half wrote:On June 17 2010 22:54 nyshak wrote:On June 17 2010 22:31 Madkipz wrote:This "core" feature of yours actually caters to a small number of players (in comparison) who are, for instance, into eSports and thus have a reason to play world-wide. Would you not lend your voice to these players ? I would if said players would stop crying about how evil Blizz is and how the sky is falling and kept things in perspective. It won't help us to bitch about Blizz. I believe in constructive criticism. Arguing with Blizz about how cross-realm play would support eSports and utimately will earn them more money than charging for it is great. Telling them to f*** off if they are going to charge money AT ALL won't get us nowhere.
I am severly starting to hate on people who argue against these issues or try to invent reasons for why these things are not core bnet features.
So hate me. I can live with that You haven't provided any constructive criticism this entire thread. Instead, you've rallied against people that have. Most people on these forums are bashing Blizzard as of late, there's no arguing that I think. "OMG there won't be chat channels (which turned out to be not true), OMG no cross-realm play!!! I AM SO NOT going to buy that game, BLIZZ SUCKS!" etc. yadayada. I tried to explain why Blizz do what they do and that there's nothing inherently evil in there. So that, once we got past the bashing, we could come up with something better. If you look at the first guy I quoted, he's one of those guys who jump to conclusions. The rest of this has been our private argument.
They have a right to bitch. I hate it too, but the fact is, regardless of how moronically illogical there ideas are, they are doing so because they feel let down. Because they no longer feel like they can trust Blizzard. Because they don't like the direction of the industry.
And this is the direction of the industry
The ideas and goals they've valued in gaming are being eroded more and more with every passing generation. Developers like Blizzard are literally among the only companies in the entire freakin industry that will cater to them. Cater to a mode of play and entertainment they've valued their entire lives. And they feel like bit by bit, they too are slipping away. The last vestige of Geertz's Deep Play in mainstream gaming.
You cannot blame them for being angry.
And their voice is every bit as valid as yours.
What are you going to say? You're mode of entertainment is not valid? Passive consumption is better? You can't. They're delaying the inevitable. And passion is the least of their vices.
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On June 17 2010 23:08 StarStruck wrote:
I believe many of us here have made constructive criticism. Stop blowing things out of proportion.
I'm pretty sure we can apply this to half's above post as well. Sounds like a Braveheart speech. You can take our monthly fees, but you can never take, OUR FREEDOM!
Rhetoric on both sides needs to calm down. There's a false sense of urgency present in all these arguments. There's no need to "win now". Nothing's changing today.
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On June 17 2010 23:16 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 23:08 StarStruck wrote:
I believe many of us here have made constructive criticism. Stop blowing things out of proportion. I'm pretty sure we can apply this to half's above post as well. Sounds like a Braveheart speech. You can take our monthly fees, but you can never take, OUR FREEDOM! Rhetoric on both sides needs to calm down. There's a false sense of urgency present in all these arguments. There's no need to "win now". Nothing's changing today.
Posts like this just piss me off. I don't even agree with those peoples perspective, but it is a valid perspective. I'm trying to illustrate how they feel.
Is that perspective invalid? I don't get it.
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On June 17 2010 23:10 Half wrote:The ideas and goals they've valued in gaming are being eroded more and more with every passing generation. Developers like Blizzard are literally among the only companies in the entire freakin industry that will cater to them. Cater to a mode of play and entertainment they've valued their entire lives. And they feel like bit by bit, they too are slipping away. The last vestige of Geertz's Deep Play in mainstream gaming. You cannot blame them for being angry.
I don't blame them for being angry. But you said it yourself: Blizz is one of the only companies that care about their fans still. Insulting them will, if anything, speed up the process your describing. Noone likes to listen to the angry nerd-kid flaming. Yes, there's good reason to be angry, but venting that anger on forums does not help. Instead our valid concerns get drowned in a torrent of gibberish.
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