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This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. Right now, voidray is the counter to viking and viking is the counter to voidray, this is not working at all. Protoss can no longer simply mass voidrays against terran (before there is no choice).
It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change.
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The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
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On June 02 2010 19:21 shawabawa wrote:
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
I guess we need a "medium" type then.
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I actually think this change is actively good. thors actually doing something against them would definately change up TvT a little bit.
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How can landed vikings fight hydra better with light armor?:|
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On June 02 2010 19:21 shawabawa wrote:
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
u dont use vikings as main ground force ;D - now tanks and marauders own them.
but still i dont get why ppl keep crying about hard counters and then when they have chance to show thier skill in mirror there is even bigger cry why there are no hard counters in mirrors :d
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On June 02 2010 19:25 Butigroove wrote:
How can landed vikings fight hydra better with light armor?:|
fixed.
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On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
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I don't think Vikings are imba in any of the MU's and thors are still pretty good against vikings. It's the strength of tanks that make the tank/viking style so strong, not the armour type of vikings :p
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On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
Vikings will still be useful for the sight range, so it will be viking+tank vs thor+tank or viking+thor+tank, or perhaps thors will making vikings completely useless, but something else with counter thor+tank. Either way it opens up a lot more options
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On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
It is very different.
Right now, only vikings can fight vikings; only tanks can fight tanks.
Thor kill vikings but it is targetable by tanks. thor can take a few hits from tanks but you still need the viking to get the sight range. Much more dynamics here.
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So you suggest making TVT a thor/banshee fest?
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On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change.
terran is good ground-to-air if air unit's armor is light (thors and ghosts do bonus dmg to light, while marines and turrets have no bonus dmg)
terran is good ground-to-ground because of siege tanks's range and huge damage. While what you say is right for TvT, the game would be completely broken in PvT and ZvT.(think about vikings vs hydras, or just the thought than sentry can bo bonus dmg vs viking is ridiculous). Also vikings don't look light in the 1st place
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It would make viking blobs better in TVT because unsieged tanks and marauders wouldn't do extra damage against them on the ground and siege tanks can easily handle thors
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On June 02 2010 19:49 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change. terran is good ground-to-air if air unit's armor is light (thors and ghosts do bonus dmg to light, while marines and turrets have no bonus dmg) terran is good ground-to-ground because of siege tanks's range and huge damage. While what you say is right for TvT, the game would be completely broken in PvT and ZvT.(think about vikings vs hydras, or just the thought than sentry can bo bonus dmg vs viking is ridiculous). Also vikings don't look light in the 1st place
Sentry does bonus v. Biological so that is unaffected
Hydras do Flat damage
If it was only the Viking in Air mode, The match up affected (and the bonus) would be
Vik v. Thor*/Ghost*
Vik v. Phoenix*
Vik* v. Void Ray/Stalker
If the vking was light in ground mode as well
....Vik* v. Tank/Marauder
....Vik v. Hellion*/Reaper*
....Vik* v. Ultralisk/Spine
....Vik v. Bane*
....Vik* v. Immortal
So I'd say Light in air/Armored on ground would be the best.
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Bonus damage =/= counter. With just 1 exception(thor AA) every unit that has a bonus vs light is light itself and every unit that has a bonus vs armored is armored itself.
Currently vikings rape void rays and win slightly vs phoenixes. Having vikings with light wouldn't be a fair fight with phoenixes, they will get raped really bad and it's very likely that a Phoenix/Carrier mix will counter everything a terran can throw at it(Corsairs/Carriers are similar in that, but terrans have goliaths in BW).
Btw, Sentries haven't had a bonus of any kind during the whole beta.
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Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) [see edit] The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter.
edit: In my original post I forgot that Vikings do 10x2 damage, so Phoenix do slightly less damage, but still have enough hp do come out on top with even numbers of Vikings and Phoenix.
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On June 02 2010 21:24 Number wrote:
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) and higher DPS (same damage but with almost 2x the attack speed). The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter.
can you please show me a replay where vikings do not stomp pheonix?
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If you wanna fix the Viking, start by reducing the range from 9 then make other adjustments to compensate. A basic air-to-air unit with 9 fucking range is a massive game design flaw.
You can't change the Viking's armor type to Light without also changing the Phoenix. The two units' strength is comparable right now, and if the Viking's armor type were Light it would fuck up the dynamic.
aside:
My intuition tells me that the only reason the Viking has 9 range is because of the Colossus's 9 range (upgraded). If Terran can't deal with the Colossus other than with 9 range Vikings then there needs to be a major overhaul of the whole Colossus to Terran relationship.
On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
Your reasoning is horrible.
On June 02 2010 21:29 Mr.Eternity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 21:24 Number wrote:
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) and higher DPS (same damage but with almost 2x the attack speed). The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter. can you please show me a replay where vikings do not stomp pheonix?
No. Anyone with a brain and the ability to do basic math can figure out that the units are basically comparable without even playing SC2.
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Correction: Void Rays only counter Vikings with Flux Veins AND they were fully-charged off something.
Without Flux-Veins and uncharged: Vikings just kite the VRs and they get rocked. Victor: Viking
With Flux-Veins and uncharged: Vikings can no longer kite and the VRs close distance quickly, but cost-to-cost (at least in gas) they still die before they can charge. Victor: Viking
Without Flux-Veins and Charged: While the Void Rays can deal tremendous damage to the Vikings, the long range of the Vikings makes it possible to kite the VRs to death. Victor: Viking
With Flux-Veins and Charged: Cost-to-cost, the Void Rays raaaaape the Vikings. BIG TIME. Victor: Void Ray
Its an interesting unit-unit interaction. A unit that counters another suddenly becomes incapable of it after an upgrade and a specific situation, which is in the Protoss' control. You can sneak into their base and charge off something, then rape the Vikings when they arrive to help, or charge off one of your own buildings if they come to you.
I can't think of any other instances where upgrades/mechanics suddenly make a counter almost useless. Chargelots don't suddenly own Roaches, for instance.
At any rate, as to the OP, I dunno about making them Light. It wouldn't help the situations where your Collossi get fucking steamrolled by a handful of Vikings and Siege Tanks hanging out with a MM blob. If Phoenixes were the counter, Terrans would just get some Thors instead of some Tanks and then you've still got the 'massively, insanely long reach of the Terran army' problem.
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EPT
