|
This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. Right now, voidray is the counter to viking and viking is the counter to voidray, this is not working at all. Protoss can no longer simply mass voidrays against terran (before there is no choice).
It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change.
|
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
|
On June 02 2010 19:21 shawabawa wrote:
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
I guess we need a "medium" type then.
|
I actually think this change is actively good. thors actually doing something against them would definately change up TvT a little bit.
|
How can landed vikings fight hydra better with light armor?:|
|
On June 02 2010 19:21 shawabawa wrote:
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying?
u dont use vikings as main ground force ;D - now tanks and marauders own them.
but still i dont get why ppl keep crying about hard counters and then when they have chance to show thier skill in mirror there is even bigger cry why there are no hard counters in mirrors :d
|
On June 02 2010 19:25 Butigroove wrote:
How can landed vikings fight hydra better with light armor?:|
fixed.
|
On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
|
I don't think Vikings are imba in any of the MU's and thors are still pretty good against vikings. It's the strength of tanks that make the tank/viking style so strong, not the armour type of vikings :p
|
On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
Vikings will still be useful for the sight range, so it will be viking+tank vs thor+tank or viking+thor+tank, or perhaps thors will making vikings completely useless, but something else with counter thor+tank. Either way it opens up a lot more options
|
On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
It is very different.
Right now, only vikings can fight vikings; only tanks can fight tanks.
Thor kill vikings but it is targetable by tanks. thor can take a few hits from tanks but you still need the viking to get the sight range. Much more dynamics here.
|
So you suggest making TVT a thor/banshee fest?
|
On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change.
terran is good ground-to-air if air unit's armor is light (thors and ghosts do bonus dmg to light, while marines and turrets have no bonus dmg)
terran is good ground-to-ground because of siege tanks's range and huge damage. While what you say is right for TvT, the game would be completely broken in PvT and ZvT.(think about vikings vs hydras, or just the thought than sentry can bo bonus dmg vs viking is ridiculous). Also vikings don't look light in the 1st place
|
It would make viking blobs better in TVT because unsieged tanks and marauders wouldn't do extra damage against them on the ground and siege tanks can easily handle thors
|
On June 02 2010 19:49 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
This will actually helps the overall balance:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
TvP: now pheonix can actually do damaage against viking, but the range of viking still make it a fair fight. It give protoss some way to protect his collosus from viking, but terran also can counter that with thor or marine protecting the vikings.
Landed viking is not instantly killed by stalkers and immortals.
TvZ: muta and viking still fight normally, viking can still kill broodlords. Landed viking can fight zerg without much change. terran is good ground-to-air if air unit's armor is light (thors and ghosts do bonus dmg to light, while marines and turrets have no bonus dmg) terran is good ground-to-ground because of siege tanks's range and huge damage. While what you say is right for TvT, the game would be completely broken in PvT and ZvT.(think about vikings vs hydras, or just the thought than sentry can bo bonus dmg vs viking is ridiculous). Also vikings don't look light in the 1st place
Sentry does bonus v. Biological so that is unaffected
Hydras do Flat damage
If it was only the Viking in Air mode, The match up affected (and the bonus) would be
Vik v. Thor*/Ghost*
Vik v. Phoenix*
Vik* v. Void Ray/Stalker
If the vking was light in ground mode as well
....Vik* v. Tank/Marauder
....Vik v. Hellion*/Reaper*
....Vik* v. Ultralisk/Spine
....Vik v. Bane*
....Vik* v. Immortal
So I'd say Light in air/Armored on ground would be the best.
|
Bonus damage =/= counter. With just 1 exception(thor AA) every unit that has a bonus vs light is light itself and every unit that has a bonus vs armored is armored itself.
Currently vikings rape void rays and win slightly vs phoenixes. Having vikings with light wouldn't be a fair fight with phoenixes, they will get raped really bad and it's very likely that a Phoenix/Carrier mix will counter everything a terran can throw at it(Corsairs/Carriers are similar in that, but terrans have goliaths in BW).
Btw, Sentries haven't had a bonus of any kind during the whole beta.
|
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) [see edit] The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter.
edit: In my original post I forgot that Vikings do 10x2 damage, so Phoenix do slightly less damage, but still have enough hp do come out on top with even numbers of Vikings and Phoenix.
|
On June 02 2010 21:24 Number wrote:
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) and higher DPS (same damage but with almost 2x the attack speed). The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter.
can you please show me a replay where vikings do not stomp pheonix?
|
If you wanna fix the Viking, start by reducing the range from 9 then make other adjustments to compensate. A basic air-to-air unit with 9 fucking range is a massive game design flaw.
You can't change the Viking's armor type to Light without also changing the Phoenix. The two units' strength is comparable right now, and if the Viking's armor type were Light it would fuck up the dynamic.
aside:
My intuition tells me that the only reason the Viking has 9 range is because of the Colossus's 9 range (upgraded). If Terran can't deal with the Colossus other than with 9 range Vikings then there needs to be a major overhaul of the whole Colossus to Terran relationship.
On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
Your reasoning is horrible.
On June 02 2010 21:29 Mr.Eternity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 21:24 Number wrote:
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) and higher DPS (same damage but with almost 2x the attack speed). The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter. can you please show me a replay where vikings do not stomp pheonix?
No. Anyone with a brain and the ability to do basic math can figure out that the units are basically comparable without even playing SC2.
|
Correction: Void Rays only counter Vikings with Flux Veins AND they were fully-charged off something.
Without Flux-Veins and uncharged: Vikings just kite the VRs and they get rocked. Victor: Viking
With Flux-Veins and uncharged: Vikings can no longer kite and the VRs close distance quickly, but cost-to-cost (at least in gas) they still die before they can charge. Victor: Viking
Without Flux-Veins and Charged: While the Void Rays can deal tremendous damage to the Vikings, the long range of the Vikings makes it possible to kite the VRs to death. Victor: Viking
With Flux-Veins and Charged: Cost-to-cost, the Void Rays raaaaape the Vikings. BIG TIME. Victor: Void Ray
Its an interesting unit-unit interaction. A unit that counters another suddenly becomes incapable of it after an upgrade and a specific situation, which is in the Protoss' control. You can sneak into their base and charge off something, then rape the Vikings when they arrive to help, or charge off one of your own buildings if they come to you.
I can't think of any other instances where upgrades/mechanics suddenly make a counter almost useless. Chargelots don't suddenly own Roaches, for instance.
At any rate, as to the OP, I dunno about making them Light. It wouldn't help the situations where your Collossi get fucking steamrolled by a handful of Vikings and Siege Tanks hanging out with a MM blob. If Phoenixes were the counter, Terrans would just get some Thors instead of some Tanks and then you've still got the 'massively, insanely long reach of the Terran army' problem.
|
On June 02 2010 21:29 Mr.Eternity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 21:24 Number wrote:
Why does everyone thing Vikings beat Phoenix? They don't.
Phoenix have more HP (60 shields and 120 hp vs 125 hp) and higher DPS (same damage but with almost 2x the attack speed). The only advantage Vikings have is the range bonus, but Phoenix are ridiculously fast so that's sort of negated as the Vikings will only get one volley off before the Phoenix close in; furthermore you cannot micro a Viking against a Phoenix as they are not only faster but can move and shoot at the same time.
I like the idea of making Vikings light while in the air but it wouldn't drastically change the outcome of Viking vs. Phoenix just make what would be barely a win into a slaughter. can you please show me a replay where vikings do not stomp pheonix?
I don't have a replay but I have tested it using the Unit Tester custom map (basically an arena where you can spawn units at will) and this website:
http://www.sinfulgaming.com/starcraft2/deathchart.php
Do note that Phoenix cost 25 more gas than Vikings and are thus harder to mass and if the Vikings outnumber the Phoenix the Vikings will win. My point was that it was a much closer fight than most people were implying.
If Vikings were light armored in the air, a smaller number of Phoenix would be able to rip through a much larger Viking force. Which would make Phoenix a valuable addition to an army with Colossi against a player trying to counter the Colossi with Vikings, this in turn would make the PvT match up more dynamic.
|
On June 02 2010 19:22 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:21 shawabawa wrote:
The biggest problem I can see with that is hellions would own them, which just seems wrong to me. Maybe only light while flying? I guess we need a "medium" type then.
We should move to a cloth, leather, plate system.
To be serious for a moment I think more units than the Viking need to be looked at like this.
Archons probably should be massive.
Stalkers should probably not be regarded as either armored or light.
Buildings should not be looked as either armored (which all of them are) or light, maybe massive.
|
On June 02 2010 21:33 Bibdy wrote:
At any rate, as to the OP, I dunno about making them Light. It wouldn't help the situations where your Collossi get fucking steamrolled by a handful of Vikings and Siege Tanks hanging out with a MM blob. If Phoenixes were the counter, Terrans would just get some Thors instead of some Tanks and then you've still got the 'massively, insanely long reach of the Terran army' problem.
So you're saying this change will make both Phoenixes and Thors more useful in PvT? That's awesome, cause that's the whole point of the change =)
On June 02 2010 19:28 Piy wrote:
I don't think Vikings are imba in any of the MU's and thors are still pretty good against vikings. It's the strength of tanks that make the tank/viking style so strong, not the armour type of vikings :p
Vikings give sight to Tanks. Without them you either need scan or will be raped, since opponent's tanks will just outrange yours and blow them up straight away without a fighting chance. Viking is a key unit here.
Thors DPS against vikings is 12,8
It takes 10 seconds to kill viking.
That's not pretty good. That's awful in fact, because it doesn't let Thors to scare Vikings away and stop them from giving sight at all. Stimmed marauders have 13,3 DPS against Immortals shields for comparison, that's how bad it is.
Changing armor type will double Thors damage against Vikings
On June 02 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:
Currently vikings rape void rays and win slightly vs phoenixes. Having vikings with light wouldn't be a fair fight with phoenixes, they will get raped really bad and it's very likely that a Phoenix/Carrier mix will counter everything a terran can throw at it(Corsairs/Carriers are similar in that, but terrans have goliaths in BW).
Viking isn't only terran's air unit though, in case you forgot about battlecruiser. One BC rips apart 5 phoenix without using Yamato.
Vikings have same inherit advantage over Phoenixes as Mutalisks - they are significantly easier to mass and we know how good Mutalisks are against Phoenixes in cost2cost fight, so it's perfectly fine for Phoenixes to be stronger unit than Vikings.
On June 02 2010 21:31 Failsafe wrote:
You can't change the Viking's armor type to Light without also changing the Phoenix. The two units' strength is comparable right now, and if the Viking's armor type were Light it would fuck up the dynamic.
Phoenix is like never used in PvT, dude. Fucking up this "dynamic" is an improvement =)
On June 02 2010 19:37 Loverman wrote:
So you suggest making TVT a thor/banshee fest?
Banshee range 6, Vikings range 9, Thors range 10.
What that means is that Banshee should be almost right above the Thor, or else Viking could land free shots on it. So at the very least there's absolutely no friggin' way for TvT to turn into thor/banshee fest because of this change.
|
Sweden33719 Posts
On June 02 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:
Bonus damage =/= counter. With just 1 exception(thor AA) every unit that has a bonus vs light is light itself and every unit that has a bonus vs armored is armored itself.
Currently vikings rape void rays and win slightly vs phoenixes. Having vikings with light wouldn't be a fair fight with phoenixes, they will get raped really bad and it's very likely that a Phoenix/Carrier mix will counter everything a terran can throw at it(Corsairs/Carriers are similar in that, but terrans have goliaths in BW).
Btw, Sentries haven't had a bonus of any kind during the whole beta.
That might work out OK, if the Thor was changed to do full damage to all unit types. In general, I'm a bit annoyed that almost all serious AA units (for all races) are... flying units themselves.
|
On June 02 2010 19:27 lew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 19:18 DarkwindHK wrote:
TvT: now thor can counter vikings, no more viking + tank war for 30 minutes.
yep, and then you get a nice tank + thor fight... Come on, there will be always XY vs XY... Is thor + tank vs thor + tank more interesting? I don't think so...
Tank + thor will never ever happen, 1 battlecruiser wins over 3 thors even without using yamatogun so the only way to counter them is vikings.
|
On June 03 2010 03:47 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 21:31 Failsafe wrote:
You can't change the Viking's armor type to Light without also changing the Phoenix. The two units' strength is comparable right now, and if the Viking's armor type were Light it would fuck up the dynamic. Phoenix is like never used in PvT, dude. Fucking up this "dynamic" is an improvement =)
What? Phoenixes are used all the time vs mech, they make tank/hellion totally worthless.
|
On June 03 2010 04:02 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 03:47 InRaged wrote:On June 02 2010 21:31 Failsafe wrote:
You can't change the Viking's armor type to Light without also changing the Phoenix. The two units' strength is comparable right now, and if the Viking's armor type were Light it would fuck up the dynamic. Phoenix is like never used in PvT, dude. Fucking up this "dynamic" is an improvement =) What? Phoenixes are used all the time vs mech, they make tank/hellion totally worthless.
Yeah, let's talk about all kind of strategies that doesn't involve Viking in response to Viking/Phoenix dynamics dialog
Though, it's probably my own fault for wording it like that
|
Korea (South)922 Posts
On June 03 2010 03:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2010 21:08 lololol wrote:
Bonus damage =/= counter. With just 1 exception(thor AA) every unit that has a bonus vs light is light itself and every unit that has a bonus vs armored is armored itself.
Currently vikings rape void rays and win slightly vs phoenixes. Having vikings with light wouldn't be a fair fight with phoenixes, they will get raped really bad and it's very likely that a Phoenix/Carrier mix will counter everything a terran can throw at it(Corsairs/Carriers are similar in that, but terrans have goliaths in BW).
Btw, Sentries haven't had a bonus of any kind during the whole beta. That might work out OK, if the Thor was changed to do full damage to all unit types. In general, I'm a bit annoyed that almost all serious AA units (for all races) are... flying units themselves.
hehe your love with the thor is amusing sometimes. i do agree it's stupid that a thor with them big antiair cannons can't take down a fucking battlecruiser or a broodlord.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
