EPTCasual Balance - Updated May 30 - Page 11
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
However I feel that the people who really keep the games alive are the hardcore gamer, so to me I think that balance should be more for the hardcore gamers. Broodwar for instances has basically no real entry for casual gamers ( Most people who pick it up usually do it for ladder and bounce onto ICCUP.) yet it still strives due to it's hardcore fan base. | ||
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Edmon
United Kingdom259 Posts
This thread got really epic really fast. I've so far managed to read every single post, but I don't have the time just yet to address the mountain of questions that have been directed at me. But don't worry, I will sit down this weekend and write a proper response to try and include everyones discussion points and drive the topic forward. Thank you all for taking the time to post your views. | ||
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Kyouya
Mexico318 Posts
What was the thing i do? learned from my mistakes, i realize i dont have a solid opening, so i used the cheat to remove the fog of war, and see what the ia do, the ia even dt rush you, so i learned that opening (build order), and others (yeah i know the ia sucks but i was a totally noob). A couple of years passed, and finally got my first PC, so i installed my beloved SC and go to battle net. What happened? i got stomped again, for "cheeses" (i dont like this term, everything is strategy), 4 pool, proxys, dt/lurker/wraith rushes, and i got discouraged? NO. I LOVE the game so much that i REALLY want to got better. So i watched the replays when i lose, to see what "strategy" my opponent used and LEARN from that. This whole issue of "please blizz make the game balanced for the casual gamer" is bullshit, its just LAZY people who dont even put effort in a GAME they "love", its just people who wants the things easy for them. If you really love the game, and have fun with it, im pretty sure you dont complain, you will watch tons of replays, read forums, etc etc. Jesus, in my times we dont have the awesome "liquipedia", youtube to watch all the progamers play and the girls cry for them, even an excellent community like TeamLiquid. Sorry for my awful english. Good Game, Good Luck & Have Fun. | ||
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Sadist
United States7291 Posts
Even after replays DID come out you had to find replay cafes which werent always easy to find if you didnt know someone. I know one of the very first ones I went to was Cosmo's. Liquipedia, TL, everything is sooooooomuch better than the broodwar.com days. You cant really "balance" something for bad players anyway......because how do you define where the imbalance is anyway....when is it imbalanced or the player just simply being better. Its much more difficult to do at the low levels. Id imagine at the lower tier the skill level varies wildly (honestly who can really quantify the difference between incredibly bad players?) Im sure people will be playing comp stomps, ums, and bgh style games anyway. So save the doom and gloom for the newbs and "casuals" since this is still the beta. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
If they lose to a strat that has a counter, the fix isn't to nerf the strat, it's for them to learn the counter. | ||
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jusayO
Canada60 Posts
Street Fighter... Beloved fighting game, simple enough for your average person to play, win, play with their friends and win/lose to their hearts content. With complexity to make it one of the most competitive games we've ever seen. I don't play DoTA/HoN/LoL but they seem to follow suit in my mind given the limitations, and roles their hero system has. Accessible by everyone, yet it's very apparent when there's skill differences involved... And I'm sure this is how SC2 will end up, whether the 5,000 people on TL daily want it to or not. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
 . I disagree nonetheless, even in your analogy, a player would have to buy that turret at their expansion and worry about it (more money to spend), a player could get the CC down to red then infest it, etc. The point I'm making is that the mere THREAT of the existance of things like the reaper cheeses and shit balances the game in itself. For example, a Protoss can play a Terran in SC1 without DTs the entire game, but the looming threat of a DT forces Terran to buy an ebay, etc. when it could be getting something else. So merely the threat of something being there has many consequences on the balance of the game and removing things for casuals will have tons of unforeseen (and seen) negative consequences. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:38 jusayO wrote: I would also like to add one more point to my response... Street Fighter... Beloved fighting game, simple enough for your average person to play, win, play with their friends and win/lose to their hearts content. With complexity to make it one of the most competitive games we've ever seen. Projectile spam is enough to beat anyone that's "casual." How is that different from something like void rays or banshees? Blizzard has already made a ton of concessions to that group, and every single person that's played both can tell you SC2 is much, much easier to get into than BW. How much further do you expect them to go? Also, lol @ millions playing CSS and even more at being NightFall's bitch. ^^ | ||
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:41 FabledIntegral wrote: For example, a Protoss can play a Terran in SC1 without DTs the entire game, but the looming threat of a DT forces Terran to buy an ebay, etc. when it could be getting something else. So merely the threat of something being there has many consequences on the balance of the game and removing things for casuals will have tons of unforeseen (and seen) negative consequences. This is 1 of the many reasons why balance is so difficult. Related specifically to the DT example, most detectors in SC2 have a larger detect radius than they did in SC. This doesn't really hurt competitive play but it helps the noobs. /casual balance | ||
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Kyouya
Mexico318 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:38 jusayO wrote: I would also like to add one more point to my response... Street Fighter... Beloved fighting game, simple enough for your average person to play, win, play with their friends and win/lose to their hearts content. With complexity to make it one of the most competitive games we've ever seen. I don't play DoTA/HoN/LoL but they seem to follow suit in my mind given the limitations, and roles their hero system has. Accessible by everyone, yet it's very apparent when there's skill differences involved... And I'm sure this is how SC2 will end up, whether the 5,000 people on TL daily want it to or not. Well, SF have tiers, an broken chars, and you need time, effort and investigation some terms like pokes, frames, chains, priority, etc. In GGPO i was able to start ST from 0 to a competitive level in 4 months, i even played "pros" like Jason Cole and Alex... (hum i forget his last name, maybe "Valle" i dont remember) why? because i love ST since i was child. And i put the time and effort to be a good player (but well, every american i played, asked me why the mexicans are so good in the fighting games). You can say "SF" is balanced at the casual base, and i will agree with you, but in the competitive level a couple of chars are broken, how is that fair? Well... fighting games are the most broken and imbalanced. This is WHY i retired from the fighting games, EVERYONE in 3rd Strike played Ken, Yun or Chun Li, and thats is pretty BORING. My point is, if you play SF you need to some knowledge that is "not" in the game, and you learn that playing, playing, playing, reading and studying your favorite game. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Good players all share something in common: dedication/desire to be better. You lose x amount of times and you educate yourself to get better. Casuals on the other hand, just want to have fun. Ok fine. That's why there are divisions. A copper player has the same chance of excelling as another copper player. I mean come on man. RTS games are a whole different world from other games. That's why it's calle RTS. | ||
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jusayO
Canada60 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:48 Jibba wrote: Projectile spam is enough to beat anyone that's "casual." How is that different from something like void rays or banshees? Blizzard has already made a ton of concessions to that group, and every single person that's played both can tell you SC2 is much, much easier to get into than BW. How much further do you expect them to go? Also, lol @ millions playing CSS and even more at being NightFall's bitch. ^^ I personally think they've gone a bit too far lately, Patch 10 is where I would have left the game if I had it my way, don't take me the wrong way... Unfortunately, I'm not everyone and neither are any of us in this thread. We've all adapted to the new changes, and have no say in the matter. On a REAL related note, Blizzard seeming to balance and rework units due to survey responses about "Favorite" and "Least Favorite" was the most garbage thing I have ever seen. P.S. I was never NightFall's bitch, every single time that asshole opened his mouth it was to tell some stupid story about a shooting happening outside, "hax", or how bad someone else was when he was baiting them. Don't get me started... Most annoying, obnoxious, chubby kid I ever had the displeasure of knowing. You wouldn't believe how many MSN accounts I have gone through to get him to STOP trying to get me to play again, and how many friends of mine he's contacted to get this information... Truly, the most annoying person on the internet. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 27 2010 07:04 jusayO wrote: Ah, I think we're actually in near complete agreement then. I personally think they've gone a bit too far lately, Patch 10 is where I would have left the game if I had it my way, don't take me the wrong way... Unfortunately, I'm not everyone and neither are any of us in this thread. We've all adapted to the new changes, and have no say in the matter. On a REAL related note, Blizzard seeming to balance and rework units due to survey responses about "Favorite" and "Least Favorite" was the most garbage thing I have ever seen. P.S. I was never NightFall's bitch, every single time that asshole opened his mouth it was to tell some stupid story about a shooting happening outside, "hax", or how bad someone else was when he was baiting them. Don't get me started... Most annoying, obnoxious, chubby kid I ever had the displeasure of knowing. You wouldn't believe how many MSN accounts I have gone through to get him to STOP trying to get me to play again, and how many friends of mine he's contacted to get this information... Truly, the most annoying person on the internet. Haha, sorry for the low blow. He's pretty damn annoying as an outsider, and I instamuted him the few times I ended up on vent with him. I can't imagine having to listen to him for the team. ._. Then again, I had someone similar. | ||
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Kyouya
Mexico318 Posts
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:38 jusayO wrote: I would also like to add one more point to my response... Street Fighter... Beloved fighting game, simple enough for your average person to play, win, play with their friends and win/lose to their hearts content. With complexity to make it one of the most competitive games we've ever seen. I don't play DoTA/HoN/LoL but they seem to follow suit in my mind given the limitations, and roles their hero system has. Accessible by everyone, yet it's very apparent when there's skill differences involved... And I'm sure this is how SC2 will end up, whether the 5,000 people on TL daily want it to or not. I'm confused by your examples. You give street fighter, and say its balanced for both casuals and competitive play, and then bring up dota/HoN/LoL, which at a casual level is completely pointless to play. Dota/HoN have such a high learning curve that there is almost no point to playing casually, because you will get rolled by someone even marginally better than you, or someone who actually plays as a team. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
There really is nothing to argue about with that. It's a straightforward and logical statement. The problem is such a scenario does not exist. Yes, the overlord ability example shows that we should balance that ability because it doesn't affect competitive players at all while it would definitely help new players. Is there really such an ability in SC2 right now that is compatible with the 'if this then that' scenario? Will there ever be a balance problem such as this? Is there right now? Will there ever be? If the answer is no, then this is an unfounded point. If the example does not apply then the example does not justify anything but your personal point. In this case the overlord example does justify that we should help if we could, but it does not apply to SC2 right now. I may be wrong, but I don't think there will ever be an applicable example. Someone threw in a possible example to justify your point that it is applicable. This example is the forge nerf which increases the build time in order to help new players and not affect competitive players. This example is surely applicable to current SC2 balance, but it does not realistically justify the same point. In the actual game, conversely, new players are not affected by this at all, while competitive players are. Little changes such as these rarely affect lower level games while it drastically affects high level games. To accommodate the prolonged build time, players will need to spend that money for the forge that much earlier to have protective canons or upgrades. The example states that this nerf is to prevent cannon cheese to new players. In most cases new players lose to cannon cheese because they do not see it coming. The problem here is that they lack skills such as scouting, timing, and game sense which they get through practice. If you're not going to scout the cannon cheese, you will fall for it because you won't know it until it hits you (the cannons are attacking you). How can a delay of the cheese by 10 seconds change the game at lower levels? Perhaps you will have 1 more unit to attack those cannons with? Maybe someone else can think of a justification that the delay does in fact help new players. Either way, it still remains that such a balance change does drastically affect competitive players which is not the point the OP is trying to make. Now the question still remains whether such a balance tweak exist that fits the criteria that satisfies the point. Edit: let me just say that all this is subjective. just as some may argue that a larger detection radius does not hurt competitive players but help noobs, other may argue that it in fact does hurt competitive players. I just keep thinking about mr. bisu with corsair dts and how dts escape overlords detection. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
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InRaged
1047 Posts
On May 27 2010 06:50 CowGoMoo wrote: This is 1 of the many reasons why balance is so difficult. Related specifically to the DT example, most detectors in SC2 have a larger detect radius than they did in SC. This doesn't really hurt competitive play but it helps the noobs. /casual balance And how does it helps noobs specifically? Are they misplacing their turrets/scanner sweeps so horribly that increased range fixes their mistake? I just can't imagine scenario where this change helps noob more than good player. It makes it easier to deal with cloaked stuff for everyone. | ||
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