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On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing?
Yeah, you have a valid point about competitive games having their own bag of tricks that require knowledge of the interface.
So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel.
The interface for Brood War is aged. We tend to overlook this simply by the fact that there are people who have spent years of their lives mastering it. I've been playing starcraft & brood war continuously since its release, and comparing the UI to RTS games released in the last 5 years, it is clunky as hell. Doesn't mean it is bad, just that there is tons of room for improvement.
I think Starcraft2 does a very good job of updating the UI. Again, it is no where nearly as developed as the SCBW interface (when did muta stacking become popular? When did people figure out how to glitch around mineral patches? When did people actively start to use magic boxes? This didn't happen until much after the last balance patch.). Being overly critical of the game and lack of features from its predecessor is not being fair to the engine or the game.
Did people seriously think that all the aspects of SCBW were going to carry over into SC2? This is not a flame or attack on anyone but just what were people expecting from the UI?
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On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel.
Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had?
People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it?
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On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it?
Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
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On May 25 2010 10:45 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it? Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
This. Everyone starts on a clean slate so that we are all on the same terms with regards to the new UI.
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On May 25 2010 10:45 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it? Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
That point has been refuted a thousand times over. SC2 is different in the sense that thousands of experienced RTS gamers are coming in to analyze every nook and cranny of the game, whereas SC1 didn't have the same experience until much later in its lifespan.
In addition, you can't just hope that SC2 will magically have a set of glitches/bugs that will make it just as competitive as SC1. Brood War is a unique beast, and numerous other RTSs also had the chance to have their "special tricks that add depth", but none of them have reached SC1's success. In others words, you can't just cross your fingers and hope that SC2 will be the same way. It has to look at what SC1 did right and use it in the sequel. SC2 has already done this for most of its gameplay decisions, so I see no reason why they aren't allowed to do it for the more advanced features.
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On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_-
3 years later and we still have the MBS and automine whining!
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On May 25 2010 06:22 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. the only bullshit here is your post. and its obscure that you think a function, that would improve control in micro management is not needed.
haha i liked your effort, but that use of obscure was a little bit off.
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I would love for the magic box functionality to be reintroduced into Starcraft 2. I already addressed this in many many many of my previous posts about how the game could be improved, among other things.
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Magic box = a glitch that people learned to make use of
Purposely putting a glitch into a new game, just because people are nostalgic for if is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Gameplay features in sc2 should be based on skill, not taking advantage of failures in programming.
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just remember most of these people never played sc1, let alone iccup
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My biggest problem with the pathing/movement system in brood war is it's got some really weird bugs.
If a unit is surrounded by other units and you want them all to move, they'll carry the other one with it.
The thing that comes to mind is having a group of hydralisks surrounding drones or something, and i tell the hydras to move and the drones to go harvest and the drones magically get moved along with the hydras. It looks like a beach ball floating down a river.
Brood war's magic box was... decent... But I prefer the balls over brood war's AI because BW's AI was bordering on retarded. Try marching 6 dragoons up a ramp, good luck with that.
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Magic box was broodwar's solution to auto-casting. Since 6 templars all cast storm with a single hotkey, you could at least position them around a bit to cast outside.
I think it's not really obscure since I found out myself way in the early days when trying to place spider mines around. BUT it is not a great system. If you could select all your units in broodwars like you do in SC2, they would all clump up into a giant ball as well since the magic box doesn't exactly fit 200/200 armies. The reason units are spread is mostly because you couldn't control more than 12 units at a time.
I think for them to implement the magic box into SC2, they'll have to make it less obscure and more reasonable to control, maybe with a hotkey to create formations or something. It'll be like Wave Dashing in Smash versus animation cancelling in competitive fighting games. One is created for the purpose of competition and the other is an abuse of mechanics.
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On May 25 2010 12:15 DrSmoke wrote:
Magic box = a glitch that people learned to make use of
Purposely putting a glitch into a new game, just because people are nostalgic for if is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Gameplay features in sc2 should be based on skill, not taking advantage of failures in programming.
Are you slightly retarded? If it's put in on purpose then it's no longer a glitch, it's a function. This isn't a nostalgia issue it's a real and pressing army CONTROL issue. The magic box is a tool that allows for more precise army control, so why not implement it?
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On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:
Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good.
You answered your own question: because it is not good. There is a difference between something that works and something that is good. A particular interaction of source code can have a beneficial effect on play (by players who know about it) without being a good way to go about achieving that effect. There are a lot of things in SC1 that work out well enough but aren't good.
If what you want is a way to keep units in relative formation, then clearly there needs to be an actual command for this. It puts the functionality in the core game, rather than hiding it as an arbitrary command modifier. Whether it means putting units in a certain mode or just having formation move/attack-move commands or however it should be implemented.
Using the SC1 magic box is not the proper way to put formation commands into the game.
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On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
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Zurich15366 Posts
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