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Hi,
In BW, we had a pathfinding system working with « magic box ». I will not explain you again what is a magic box, as long as it is really well explaind in liquidpedia : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Magic_Boxes
The magic box allow us to make some formations with our units and units keep the formation given some condition.
In SC2, unit seems to always make some kind of big balls. This make the battle look like big ball vs big ball, which isn't really nice.
Why not having a similar functionnality in SC2 ? The magic box system was even mentionned on the starcraft CD case as a new revolutionnary functionnality. Tjis isn't revolutionnary now ?
What do you think ?
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I think you're suffering from one ctrl grp syndrome, and that you should start setting up controls for more than just one big blop of units
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The whole pathing system would have to be reworked which isn't going to happen. But I agree, I did like the magic box thing more.
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On May 25 2010 05:22 Lovin wrote:
I think you're suffering from one ctrl grp syndrome, and that you should start setting up controls for more than just one big blop of units
This is quite unrelated. If you make 2 groupe, you'll have two balls of units :D And if you make 3 groups, you'll get with 3 balls.
That's way différent from the magic box concept.
Darpinion > Sure if the whole stuff have to be recoded, this is unrealistic. But as wehave see with the micro project, the engine is really permissive and maybe allow for these kinf of tweak. (I trully don't know)
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I was never much of a BW player but this looks really cool. I think it would be great to have this functionality in SC2. They could even have it be an option so people could turn it off if they want.
Really shows how much thought was put into the gameplay of SC1... I wish the current developers had the same mindset 
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Blizzard might have gone a little overkill with the improved AI. Not just stuff like selecting all your units but with shit like auto focusing workers and zergling auto surrounds. These AI improvements are being abused (morrow build anyone?) by good players.
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On May 25 2010 05:23 Darpinion wrote:
The whole pathing system would have to be reworked which isn't going to happen. But I agree, I did like the magic box thing more.
I don't think the whole pathing system would have to be reworked, just which coordinates are given for units to move to when they have been selected under different group conditions. The code for telling the unit to go from x1, y1 to x2, y2 could remain the same.
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Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
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On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
This is true. It's pretty noticeable with air units, but it seems to be "nerfed" in regards to ground units, probably due to the units clustering up more.
I'm still not a fan of the whole units cluster up thing though. It's annoying knowing that no matter how you handle them, units will always form into a tight ball when you order them to move. It makes strategic positioning much more annoying to do, so most people just give up and resort to ball vs. ball.
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On May 25 2010 05:49 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. I'm still not a fan of the whole units cluster up thing though. It's annoying knowing that no matter how you handle them, units will always form into a tight ball when you order them to move. It makes strategic positioning much more annoying to do, so most people just give up and resort to ball vs. ball.
It makes tanks so freakin good 
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On May 25 2010 05:23 Darpinion wrote:
The whole pathing system would have to be reworked which isn't going to happen. But I agree, I did like the magic box thing more.
Yes I've mostly noticed that with small air armies and zergling micro. I haven't been able to use it to effect though.
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Everything so far seems to me that there is a magic box in SC2 as well. Select a group of 10 or so air units, move them somewhere, hold shift, press P, click a bit further away. They will all start patrol dancing in the same grid before they started moving. Try that with more units and it won't work.
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good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box.
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On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box.
the only bullshit here is your post. and its obscure that you think a function, that would improve control in micro management is not needed.
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WC3 TFT had one and it was awesome especially for Huntress micro. I really hope there is one in SC2 that we haven't noticed as in both BW and W3 it made for some very interesting positional micro, that can't be achieved without such a system.
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![[image loading]](http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4347/screenshot003z.jpg)
Epic image coming in this post! :D
On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size.
However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only:
# Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings
# Multiple transport drop
It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect):
+ Show Spoiler +
No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX)
+ Show Spoiler +
If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit!
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND:
+ Show Spoiler +
Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler +
This was really interessting thanks man! I really hope that they decide to makke it bigger before release :D
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In Warcraft 3, units are actually forced into formation in a similar way that they are in age of empires. This is not the same as the magic box, which is designed to preserve the formation the units start moving in.
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On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box.
You mean everything that made the first game great?
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On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box.
why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_-
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On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler +
Nice read, thx.
So how the hell it always ends up with balls of units ? It shouldn't if order is given outside the box :/
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On May 25 2010 07:14 deadalnix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler + Nice read, thx. So how the hell it always ends up with balls of units ? It shouldn't if order is given outside the box :/
you only get a ball if the box itself is too big
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On May 25 2010 07:19 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 07:14 deadalnix wrote:On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler + Nice read, thx. So how the hell it always ends up with balls of units ? It shouldn't if order is given outside the box :/ you only get a ball if the box itself is too big
Yep, the magic box is usually too small for any considerably big army, so they will almost always clump up.
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On May 25 2010 07:34 firebound12 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 07:19 clickrush wrote:On May 25 2010 07:14 deadalnix wrote:On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler + Nice read, thx. So how the hell it always ends up with balls of units ? It shouldn't if order is given outside the box :/ you only get a ball if the box itself is too big Yep, the magic box is usually too small for any considerably big army, so they will almost always clump up.
I think this is a good thing. It'll force players to get out of the 1-ctrl group syndrome if they want any form of formations and such.
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On May 25 2010 07:38 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 07:34 firebound12 wrote:On May 25 2010 07:19 clickrush wrote:On May 25 2010 07:14 deadalnix wrote:On May 25 2010 06:36 firebound12 wrote:Epic image coming in this post! :D On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box. This is absolutely true. I have tested it plenty of time in the editor. I can safely say that the magic box have considerably been reduced in SC2 for both air and ground, as both air and ground magic boxes in SC2 are approximately the same size. However, due to the smart cast and the anti-clumping mechanism in SC2, I do not see this as a necessity in SC2. I could see the uses in these only: # Laying Spider Mines burrowing banelings # Multiple transport drop It is almost impossible to cast multiple spells at the same time, due to the fact that only one caster will move at a time. However, if you move while casting the spells without using the shift button, you get this (sorry this isn't perfect): + Show Spoiler +No matter how tiny it is, the magic box works and units will stay in formation as long as you click outside of their box (NOT THE UNIVERSAL MAGIC BOX) + Show Spoiler +If we click INSIDE the box, the formation fall. The minimum unit selection box is the box of the current selected unit! + Show Spoiler +Here is the maximum magic box for BOTH AIR AND GROUND: + Show Spoiler +Again, the magic box doesnt need to be in a rectangular fashion: + Show Spoiler + Nice read, thx. So how the hell it always ends up with balls of units ? It shouldn't if order is given outside the box :/ you only get a ball if the box itself is too big Yep, the magic box is usually too small for any considerably big army, so they will almost always clump up. I think this is a good thing. It'll force players to get out of the 1-ctrl group syndrome if they want any form of formations and such.
Oh gosh, imagine the possibilities for baneling and ghosts positioning with the magic box :o!!
and of course the doom drop! :3
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On May 25 2010 06:52 Maginor wrote:
In Warcraft 3, units are actually forced into formation in a similar way that they are in age of empires. This is not the same as the magic box, which is designed to preserve the formation the units start moving in.
Only if you played with formations on which nobody did.
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I don't agree that you need the magic box for skill.
By that I mean that it probably was a good feature, but this way in Starcraft 2 to micro your units you have to move them each individually! Isn't that more skill?
If units clump up too much it probably is a problem, but the solution isn't necessarily to make everything the same as in Brood War.
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On May 25 2010 06:52 Maginor wrote:
In Warcraft 3, units are actually forced into formation in a similar way that they are in age of empires. This is not the same as the magic box, which is designed to preserve the formation the units start moving in.
Ignorant War3 posts seem to be the norm around here. Formation movement was not "forced" there was a toggle switch to turn it off. Good players played with it turned off. And it doesn't "preserve the formation the units start moving in." It puts melee units infront of ranged/caster units. The ranged units will actually slow down so that the melee units can catch up and get in front of them.
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On May 25 2010 08:02 Redmark wrote:
I don't agree that you need the magic box for skill.
By that I mean that it probably was a good feature, but this way in Starcraft 2 to micro your units you have to move them each individually! Isn't that more skill?
If units clump up too much it probably is a problem, but the solution isn't necessarily to make everything the same as in Brood War.
...
We didn't necessarily say that you need the magic box. Controlling individuals units is in both starcraft 1 and 2. The big implication that magic box has in SC2 is that you can still make doom drop. Magic box is crucial for those drops because you can drop from each transport in a formation, instead of all your transports dropping on one point. This is true for SC1, and I am glad that we can still do that in SC2, even though the magic box has been drastically reduced in SC2.
If you haven't this, then you don't know how cool it is to storm simultaneously with the magic box. In SC2 it is harder, but possible as I have just demonstrated.
![[image loading]](http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4117/screenshot005nm.jpg)
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On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_-
I think the only reason why we think it's 'good' is because we are used to it from SC1. Ask a player who never played BW and you'll probably see that they think the units in bw move too clunky.
I don't think the magic box is necessary. How can you say 'removing everything that requires skill' yet ask for something that actually you to do less. Imagine casting 4 storms in a box, even the idea seems imba.
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i saw it in a day9 daily and was amazed. i have a feeling the magic box is pretty small, if in existence. i've had minimal success keeping small numbers of units in formation. the concept is very useful in countering the mighty baneling with rines, and any other aoe attacks
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I think the only reason why we think it's 'good' is because we are used to it from SC1. Ask a player who never played BW and you'll probably see that they think the units in bw move too clunky.
Actually units un BW acted like retarded. But the magic box was one of the only stuff they did well :D
Now they can found theyre own way but end up in balls. I'm not sure this is really better.
I don't think the magic box is necessary. How can you say 'removing everything that requires skill' yet ask for something that actually you to do less. Imagine casting 4 storms in a box, even the idea seems imba.
I do not believe that we should keep some old crap just because they require skill. I'm sure we can do thing that require skill and aren't stupid. So I see no reason to keep units acting like retarded ones.
reavers or lurker where units that prove you can introduce in a game stuff that require skill without having morons units.
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On May 25 2010 08:54 eLiE wrote:
i saw it in a day9 daily and was amazed.
What did you was in day9 daily ? And which one ?
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They didn't look retarded! We loved those units and our magic box!
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i have a feeling the magic box is pretty small
Imagine casting 4 storms in a box, even the idea seems imba.
the way this thread is going discourages me = =;;
1. I just showed that the magic box is indeed smaller.
2. You can still cast 4 storms in a "box fashion" in sc2, and that's why it was so cool in sc1. Stop calling stuff imba. It wasnt in sc1 and it wont in sc2 (also due to the fact that sc2 storm is weaker)
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It's still there in SC2, but it could stand to be bigger. It's a lot harder to pull off the neat micro tricks you could do with it. It also made positioning your army easier, which will definitely help in SC2 against banelings.
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On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
man i wish you'd post more often 
thanks for your gems.
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On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_-
The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game.
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On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game.
Wait, you mean those obscure, weird and archaic mechanism that made SC1 pro-scene so awesome? No more muta micro sniping off those scourge? It is not that big of a "secret" if you dig just a little bit. I agree some things have to be improve from sc1, but the magic box is a basic skill that people use even if they are not aware of it.
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On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game.
The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing?
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On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing?
Yeah, you have a valid point about competitive games having their own bag of tricks that require knowledge of the interface.
So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel.
The interface for Brood War is aged. We tend to overlook this simply by the fact that there are people who have spent years of their lives mastering it. I've been playing starcraft & brood war continuously since its release, and comparing the UI to RTS games released in the last 5 years, it is clunky as hell. Doesn't mean it is bad, just that there is tons of room for improvement.
I think Starcraft2 does a very good job of updating the UI. Again, it is no where nearly as developed as the SCBW interface (when did muta stacking become popular? When did people figure out how to glitch around mineral patches? When did people actively start to use magic boxes? This didn't happen until much after the last balance patch.). Being overly critical of the game and lack of features from its predecessor is not being fair to the engine or the game.
Did people seriously think that all the aspects of SCBW were going to carry over into SC2? This is not a flame or attack on anyone but just what were people expecting from the UI?
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On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel.
Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had?
People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it?
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On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it?
Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
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On May 25 2010 10:45 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it? Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
This. Everyone starts on a clean slate so that we are all on the same terms with regards to the new UI.
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On May 25 2010 10:45 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 10:26 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 10:04 Spawkuring wrote:On May 25 2010 09:34 junemermaid wrote:On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_- The magic box was obscure. We were all used to it in brood war, but "secret" things like this is what made sc1 too unapproachable without deep knowledge of how to use the archaic interface. I'm glad SC2 does not have such reliance on these weird properties that were inherent to the first game's engine, although I'm sure we'll find out quirks in the SC2 interface that works for the design of the game. The magic box is no more obscure than any other "hidden trick" in most competitive games out there. Even the casual Super Smash Bros. has plenty of hidden tricks for people to take advantage of. It's not even the result of an "archaic interface", which is honestly becoming an overused term with this game. It's just a nice part of the game that adds depth and builds community around trying to master it. Since when is that a bad thing? So why is it so unrealistic that we have to discover a new set of glitches and tricks for a new game? Just because we're used it to and it works for SCBW doesn't mean it should be in the sequel. Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good. Remember that this is Starcraft 2 we're talking about. It's was already labeled a rehash the moment it was announced, and no amount of changes will remove that label unless we start seeing heroes and creeps. You ask us why SC2 should have something that SC1 had. Well my questions to you is why shouldn't SC2 have things SC1 had? People don't want the magic box "just because", they want it because it was a nice feature that added depth and was fun to use. Every game/sport has little obscure tricks to take advantage of, and it has never bothered people for hundreds of years, so I don't know why it's so bad to have them now. Finding new things is part of the fun. SC1 would be pretty boring if every single strategy was discovered on day 1, wouldn't it? Missed the point of his post altogether it looks you did. He is saying that there is likely things in SC2 that are in the same regard as features we're used to in SCBW, they are just different features, a different game engine that will take years to fully explore.
That point has been refuted a thousand times over. SC2 is different in the sense that thousands of experienced RTS gamers are coming in to analyze every nook and cranny of the game, whereas SC1 didn't have the same experience until much later in its lifespan.
In addition, you can't just hope that SC2 will magically have a set of glitches/bugs that will make it just as competitive as SC1. Brood War is a unique beast, and numerous other RTSs also had the chance to have their "special tricks that add depth", but none of them have reached SC1's success. In others words, you can't just cross your fingers and hope that SC2 will be the same way. It has to look at what SC1 did right and use it in the sequel. SC2 has already done this for most of its gameplay decisions, so I see no reason why they aren't allowed to do it for the more advanced features.
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On May 25 2010 06:57 nurle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. why is that bullshit? sc2 could atleast have something good from sc1, since they are removing everything that requieres skill-_-
3 years later and we still have the MBS and automine whining!
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On May 25 2010 06:22 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2010 06:14 0mar wrote:
good god, the last thing this game needs is obscure bullshit like the magic box. the only bullshit here is your post. and its obscure that you think a function, that would improve control in micro management is not needed.
haha i liked your effort, but that use of obscure was a little bit off.
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I would love for the magic box functionality to be reintroduced into Starcraft 2. I already addressed this in many many many of my previous posts about how the game could be improved, among other things.
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Magic box = a glitch that people learned to make use of
Purposely putting a glitch into a new game, just because people are nostalgic for if is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Gameplay features in sc2 should be based on skill, not taking advantage of failures in programming.
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just remember most of these people never played sc1, let alone iccup
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My biggest problem with the pathing/movement system in brood war is it's got some really weird bugs.
If a unit is surrounded by other units and you want them all to move, they'll carry the other one with it.
The thing that comes to mind is having a group of hydralisks surrounding drones or something, and i tell the hydras to move and the drones to go harvest and the drones magically get moved along with the hydras. It looks like a beach ball floating down a river.
Brood war's magic box was... decent... But I prefer the balls over brood war's AI because BW's AI was bordering on retarded. Try marching 6 dragoons up a ramp, good luck with that.
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Magic box was broodwar's solution to auto-casting. Since 6 templars all cast storm with a single hotkey, you could at least position them around a bit to cast outside.
I think it's not really obscure since I found out myself way in the early days when trying to place spider mines around. BUT it is not a great system. If you could select all your units in broodwars like you do in SC2, they would all clump up into a giant ball as well since the magic box doesn't exactly fit 200/200 armies. The reason units are spread is mostly because you couldn't control more than 12 units at a time.
I think for them to implement the magic box into SC2, they'll have to make it less obscure and more reasonable to control, maybe with a hotkey to create formations or something. It'll be like Wave Dashing in Smash versus animation cancelling in competitive fighting games. One is created for the purpose of competition and the other is an abuse of mechanics.
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On May 25 2010 12:15 DrSmoke wrote:
Magic box = a glitch that people learned to make use of
Purposely putting a glitch into a new game, just because people are nostalgic for if is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Gameplay features in sc2 should be based on skill, not taking advantage of failures in programming.
Are you slightly retarded? If it's put in on purpose then it's no longer a glitch, it's a function. This isn't a nostalgia issue it's a real and pressing army CONTROL issue. The magic box is a tool that allows for more precise army control, so why not implement it?
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On May 25 2010 10:43 Spawkuring wrote:
Why not? What's so bad about including something from the original if it's good.
You answered your own question: because it is not good. There is a difference between something that works and something that is good. A particular interaction of source code can have a beneficial effect on play (by players who know about it) without being a good way to go about achieving that effect. There are a lot of things in SC1 that work out well enough but aren't good.
If what you want is a way to keep units in relative formation, then clearly there needs to be an actual command for this. It puts the functionality in the core game, rather than hiding it as an arbitrary command modifier. Whether it means putting units in a certain mode or just having formation move/attack-move commands or however it should be implemented.
Using the SC1 magic box is not the proper way to put formation commands into the game.
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On May 25 2010 05:36 CowGoMoo wrote:
Magic Boxes are totally in SC2, its just a fairly small box.
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