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I finally got a Beta Key! Yay! Found out about the GameStop pre-order deal, and haven't left my computer chair since Saturday.
So far, in spite of tanking my ranking games and getting placed first in bronze =(, I absolutely love the game. But in all its newness, I'm finding that BW build orders don't hold up so well, and new ones, at least in my experience, seem awfully prone to nerd-rage.
Playing Zerg, and in an atmosphere rife with cheese, I've been 10 pooling virtually every game and matchup, simply because it feels so safe. Often times, my first 6 lings show up before the other guy even has units outs. (lol silver is hard)
In fact, it's happened so often that I'm starting to wonder if 10 pool is "cheesey". I played BW to C (nothing special) but I didn't cheese my way there, and I don't want to cheese my way to Platinum, either.
Of course, this whole thread is just a veiled attempt to brag about a game I just played where some angry nerd raged on me for twenty minutes for being "scrubby"... But my questions still stand.
Check out the replay for rage and lulz.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4643
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One person's definition of cheese will differ from another's.
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Cheese is generally defined as an all-in maneuver where your win chance in the game becomes a black and white "0% or 100%" situation.
Of course, it's deviated a ton XD
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cheese is an overused term that should be banned from this website
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"One man's cheese is another's standard."
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I always just thought that cheese was an all-in attack that either
a) wins you the game
b) puts you at such a high advantage that you have a transition from your risky maneuver or
c) fails and you lose the game because the move was so risky and so costly that you're not at too much of a disadvantage to come back.
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I would say SC2 10 pool is closer to BW 9 pool in terms of speed. It's not really cheese, unless you pump nonstop lings and make it allin.
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10pool is definitely not a cheese, its a very easy opening to transition out of. a 10pool into roach allin or baneling bust allin would be cheese, but even 10poolspeed can transition into an economic build.
6pool, on the other hand...
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Cheese is anything that kills me before i'm ready to die.
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Mr. Bitter got to C on iccup?
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Cheesing doesn't necessarily mean all-in.
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Should ask idra bout that topic
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The standard definition of cheese is any strategy that relies on not being discovered, and which fails dramatically if discovered. I don't think cheese requires that there to be no follow-up - it is entirely possible to go fast DT rush and then to follow it up with high templars. However, since the effectiveness of DT rush relies on the tech not being discovered, it is considered a form of cheese.
In addition to cheese, there is also the concept of an all-in. An all-in is a strategy that has no follow-up, or at least very limited follow-up. Bringing all your scvs in an early push is an all-in, whether the opponent discovers it or not.
All-in and cheese are not mutually exclusive. A cheesy all-in would be 6-pool: the opponent has to know it's not coming, and there is no real follow-up because you're so economically behind if you don't cripple or destroy your opponent. By contrast, proxy cannons in your opponent's base is clearly a cheese, but it is not necessarily an all-in if you also forge expand.
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United States42978 Posts
It's a new game, is there any chance we could just dodge all this cheese bullshit this time round. We could use different descriptions of builds, like good or bad for example.
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On May 11 2010 10:31 Azarkon wrote:
The standard definition of cheese is any strategy that relies on not being discovered, and which fails dramatically if discovered. I don't think cheese requires that there to be no follow-up - it is entirely possible to go fast DT rush and then to follow it up with high templars. However, since the effectiveness of DT rush relies on the tech not being discovered, it is considered a form of cheese.
In addition to cheese, there is also the concept of an all-in. An all-in is a strategy that has no follow-up, or at least very limited follow-up. Bringing all your scvs in an early push is an all-in, whether the opponent discovers it or not.
All-in and cheese are not mutually exclusive. A cheesy all-in would be 6-pool: the opponent has to know it's not coming, and there is no real follow-up because you're so economically behind if you don't cripple or destroy your opponent. By contrast, proxy cannons in your opponent's base is clearly a cheese, but it is not necessarily an all-in if you also forge expand.
Well said!
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On May 11 2010 10:29 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
Should ask idra bout that topic
LOL.
My definition of cheese:
A strat/build order that either
A) Attempts to win completely by surprise or timing (Early attack)... eg. the 6 pool.
B) That if failed, put you in a position where you cannot come back if the opponent knows about your situation.
C) A last ditch attempt counter something someone has done by using A).
Probably wrong, but thats off the top of my head
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On May 11 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Mr. Bitter got to C on iccup?
Damn straight. Granted it was as P, so maybe I should just say D-. =p
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I believe a so-called "cheese" is basically playing strategically while downplay mechanics.
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On May 11 2010 10:37 KwarK wrote:
It's a new game, is there any chance we could just dodge all this cheese bullshit this time round. We could use different descriptions of builds, like good or bad for example.
It's just a way to characterize strategies. Cheesy builds are not necessarily bad. They just depend more on chance and mind gaming. I think the choice between whether to cheese or not is a personal one. JF was known in BW for his cheese (and reaver micro). Idra, by contrast, hated JF's play-style and cheesy builds in general. Yet they both succeeded in their own ways in tourneys.
Although, Idra has a different definition of cheese than the standard one. To him, almost anything that beats him - except standard play - is cheese. 
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Cheese is indeed an overused term and I hear a lot of casters use the term for situations that are clearly not cheese. For instance "ohh that's some banshee cheese, right there" or "wow, nice zealot cheese" (out of 1 standard gate).
People need to learn the difference between an aggressive opening and cheese, imo.
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Here's a scenario
When you bunker rush a protoss player without taking their build into consideration, it is cheese.
When you bunker rush a protoss player because you scouted an early expo, it is standard play.
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that was not cheese. if you where going 9 pool thats more cheese then 10 pool 
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There is no cheese. There is only the whine of a dying Idra.
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If Idra is bming you and cussing you out, then the strat is cheese.
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Cheese = ONLY something fishy under 10 supply (6pool, 8reaper, proxy gateway on 9).. or anything ultimately super earlygame that involves a proxy or building your pool under 9..
NOTHING ELSE IS CHEESE.
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Cheese: something people complain about regardless of why they lost
I mean really, people have the audacity to go for greedy econ builds and then complain about being rushed? Get over it...
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Like the OP I just got sc2 key recently (Sun) and after playing about 60 odd games as T, 10 pool in sc2 is definately NOT cheese. I played z where they pooled earlier than 10, and despite my bunker was able to transition smoothly to roaches so quickly if I was 2 maruaders short (had about 8 marine and 2 mauraders on ramp when 6 roaches showed up, barely defended then the next ling/roach wave 10 sec later just overwhelmed me, all from 1 hat....
I however sometimes do proxy 6 rax reaper rush vs p, and if they didn't gate early it's almost auto GG. That is cheese I think.
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definition of cheese si useless tbh. No matter wether the other guy cheesed or not, he still beat you.
If you think it makes you feel better to discard that loss as "well he cheesed, i'm better than him anyway" you'll have a hard time getting better and better with that mindset.
Early rushes are part of the game, getting to know how to deal with them is way more important than labelling them as `newbie` or `cheesy`.
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On May 11 2010 10:25 blyn wrote:
Cheese is anything that kills me before i'm ready to die.
Life is cheese.
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i feel like you've mostly been playing with nubs
a standard 13pool can hold off 10 pool easily :x
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On May 11 2010 16:34 zLnoEk wrote:
i feel like you've mostly been playing with nubs
a standard 13pool can hold off 10 pool easily :x
This goes without say. I got facerolled in my placement games by virtue of having never touched SC2 before. I literally booted up the game and jumped right into ladder. This resulted in me losing hilariously to void rays like 8 times in a row before finally figuring out the basics of the game.
Since then I've been winning consistently against gold and even a couple platinum players, and am currently at the top of my silver ladder.
That said, I posted the thread in hopes of getting a better feel for what is and isn't cheesey these days. In BW, pools before 9, most proxies, and even things like 4 gate goon all-in could be called cheese. I was just wondering what builds are becoming susceptible to the label now.
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EPT
