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I finally got a Beta Key! Yay! Found out about the GameStop pre-order deal, and haven't left my computer chair since Saturday.
So far, in spite of tanking my ranking games and getting placed first in bronze =(, I absolutely love the game. But in all its newness, I'm finding that BW build orders don't hold up so well, and new ones, at least in my experience, seem awfully prone to nerd-rage.
Playing Zerg, and in an atmosphere rife with cheese, I've been 10 pooling virtually every game and matchup, simply because it feels so safe. Often times, my first 6 lings show up before the other guy even has units outs. (lol silver is hard)
In fact, it's happened so often that I'm starting to wonder if 10 pool is "cheesey". I played BW to C (nothing special) but I didn't cheese my way there, and I don't want to cheese my way to Platinum, either.
Of course, this whole thread is just a veiled attempt to brag about a game I just played where some angry nerd raged on me for twenty minutes for being "scrubby"... But my questions still stand.
Check out the replay for rage and lulz.
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/4643
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One person's definition of cheese will differ from another's.
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Cheese is generally defined as an all-in maneuver where your win chance in the game becomes a black and white "0% or 100%" situation.
Of course, it's deviated a ton XD
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cheese is an overused term that should be banned from this website
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"One man's cheese is another's standard."
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I always just thought that cheese was an all-in attack that either
a) wins you the game
b) puts you at such a high advantage that you have a transition from your risky maneuver or
c) fails and you lose the game because the move was so risky and so costly that you're not at too much of a disadvantage to come back.
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I would say SC2 10 pool is closer to BW 9 pool in terms of speed. It's not really cheese, unless you pump nonstop lings and make it allin.
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10pool is definitely not a cheese, its a very easy opening to transition out of. a 10pool into roach allin or baneling bust allin would be cheese, but even 10poolspeed can transition into an economic build.
6pool, on the other hand...
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Cheese is anything that kills me before i'm ready to die.
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Mr. Bitter got to C on iccup?
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Cheesing doesn't necessarily mean all-in.
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Should ask idra bout that topic
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The standard definition of cheese is any strategy that relies on not being discovered, and which fails dramatically if discovered. I don't think cheese requires that there to be no follow-up - it is entirely possible to go fast DT rush and then to follow it up with high templars. However, since the effectiveness of DT rush relies on the tech not being discovered, it is considered a form of cheese.
In addition to cheese, there is also the concept of an all-in. An all-in is a strategy that has no follow-up, or at least very limited follow-up. Bringing all your scvs in an early push is an all-in, whether the opponent discovers it or not.
All-in and cheese are not mutually exclusive. A cheesy all-in would be 6-pool: the opponent has to know it's not coming, and there is no real follow-up because you're so economically behind if you don't cripple or destroy your opponent. By contrast, proxy cannons in your opponent's base is clearly a cheese, but it is not necessarily an all-in if you also forge expand.
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United States44372 Posts
It's a new game, is there any chance we could just dodge all this cheese bullshit this time round. We could use different descriptions of builds, like good or bad for example.
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On May 11 2010 10:31 Azarkon wrote:
The standard definition of cheese is any strategy that relies on not being discovered, and which fails dramatically if discovered. I don't think cheese requires that there to be no follow-up - it is entirely possible to go fast DT rush and then to follow it up with high templars. However, since the effectiveness of DT rush relies on the tech not being discovered, it is considered a form of cheese.
In addition to cheese, there is also the concept of an all-in. An all-in is a strategy that has no follow-up, or at least very limited follow-up. Bringing all your scvs in an early push is an all-in, whether the opponent discovers it or not.
All-in and cheese are not mutually exclusive. A cheesy all-in would be 6-pool: the opponent has to know it's not coming, and there is no real follow-up because you're so economically behind if you don't cripple or destroy your opponent. By contrast, proxy cannons in your opponent's base is clearly a cheese, but it is not necessarily an all-in if you also forge expand.
Well said!
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On May 11 2010 10:29 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
Should ask idra bout that topic
LOL.
My definition of cheese:
A strat/build order that either
A) Attempts to win completely by surprise or timing (Early attack)... eg. the 6 pool.
B) That if failed, put you in a position where you cannot come back if the opponent knows about your situation.
C) A last ditch attempt counter something someone has done by using A).
Probably wrong, but thats off the top of my head
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On May 11 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Mr. Bitter got to C on iccup?
Damn straight. Granted it was as P, so maybe I should just say D-. =p
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I believe a so-called "cheese" is basically playing strategically while downplay mechanics.
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On May 11 2010 10:37 KwarK wrote:
It's a new game, is there any chance we could just dodge all this cheese bullshit this time round. We could use different descriptions of builds, like good or bad for example.
It's just a way to characterize strategies. Cheesy builds are not necessarily bad. They just depend more on chance and mind gaming. I think the choice between whether to cheese or not is a personal one. JF was known in BW for his cheese (and reaver micro). Idra, by contrast, hated JF's play-style and cheesy builds in general. Yet they both succeeded in their own ways in tourneys.
Although, Idra has a different definition of cheese than the standard one. To him, almost anything that beats him - except standard play - is cheese. 
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EPT
