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In defense of hard counters... - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
April 14 2010 21:01 GMT
#181
Soft counters are best, and STILL require that you react to your opponent. Hard counters are terrible imo. And it's even better when a unit counters another BECAUSE of another unit.

For example, goons soft counter lurkers. If you have a bunch of lurkers bunched up near each other, they are actually quite effective vs goons. But because you know there are going to be high templar, you have to space your lurkers about, making goons a very good counter to lurkers, so much taht in a 1v1 fight goons will straight up rape spaced out lurkers.

And we're talking a unit with like ~180 hp (goon) dealing 20 dmg vs a unit with 125 hp dealing 20 dmg that has splash and is burrowed. It's not the goon dealing 40-50 dmg or some retarded shit to the lurker.

Imo, the Immortal should be completely revamped. Have it do something like 20+15 instead of 20+30 (or even 25+15), and have it slightly cheaper, and more emphasis on shields. Like 200 shields and 50 hp. But the shields reduce dmg by 50% at dmgs over 10 (meaning large attacks like siege tanks still do a lot more dmg). Just my opinion.
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
April 14 2010 21:08 GMT
#182
I think if Immortal damage is nerfed too hard, it won't any more uses compared to the Colossus,
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
April 14 2010 21:56 GMT
#183
On April 15 2010 06:08 buhhy wrote:
I think if Immortal damage is nerfed too hard, it won't any more uses compared to the Colossus,


Countering mech? Aka it's unit design? And being cheaper?
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
April 14 2010 22:13 GMT
#184
Well, if it becomes cheaper, with smaller bonuses against armor, wouldn't it be a stronger Stalker that doesn't attack air, but has a hardened shield?
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
April 14 2010 22:16 GMT
#185
On April 15 2010 07:13 buhhy wrote:
Well, if it becomes cheaper, with smaller bonuses against armor, wouldn't it be a stronger Stalker that doesn't attack air, but has a hardened shield?


And that doesn't have blink and is much less mobile? And wouldn't it thus be a COMPLETLEY different unit? And still a relatively hard counter to mech with like 2x the HP?

Differences between the two would be...

Stalker - Lower HP, more mobile, blink ability, able to be warped in, anti air, not a good counter vs armored (14 dmg total), multipurpose unit, medium range

Immortal - Very high HP unit, slow moving, no antiair ability, cannot be warped in, hardened shields reduce high damage attacks, incredibly high attack (35) vs armored (whoever says 35 isn't a high attack is ridiculous), short range

How in the world are those two descriptions similar at all? Besides the fact the two units are quadrapeds? That's literally all I can think of.
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
April 15 2010 23:02 GMT
#186
On April 15 2010 05:42 buhhy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2010 00:26 beetlelisk wrote:
This is the exact opposite of strategically deep, there is a lot of less stress put on scouting and decision making.

All it takes to negate damage bonuses is throw in units that aren't affected by them yet so many people want damage bonuses to be drastically reduced or removed.
How is Immortal doing 30+10 supposed to be balanced? How is it role supposed to be defined?
How is it supposed to be strategically deep when it matters what it attacks that much less?

People 1A armies of 2 types of units so they get boring games, it all depends on them.
I ask you to quote and reply to what I wrote on the previous page please.


You need to change your mindset from "I've seen everything and there isn't anything else people can come up with".




Show nested quote +
On April 15 2010 01:42 duckhunt wrote:
i guess people want 1-2 unit armies every single game vs anything the opponent has ;(


You missed my point, I wasn't commenting on SC2 concepts or balance. What I'm talking about is how the people in general will react when encountering a problem. Humans attempt to simplify, it's how we become efficient. If there is a simple solution (massing 2 units) that gives good results and a slightly better but more complicated solution (having 4 different units) that give slightly better results, most people would choose the simpler solution.

For an example, look at the Queen in SC1, people have found ensnare can be very useful but people rarely build it because it's too much effort for the bonus. It's also the reason why people put their army in 1 control group; because they can, and it won't hurt them that much to do it. It may be more exciting to watch, but the returns on effort is not large enough justify complicating a task.

Now, what methods can you use to encourage people to use more units? You can improve their return on investment (make tanks stronger), reduce the investment needed (reduce costs/build times), or make them necessary (detection etc). The problem with the marauder and roach mainly, is that they fulfill too many roles. There is little investment on them and huge returns, plus they overlap in roles with other units. It's hard to justify using different units when these guys can cover almost every role, and don't even pale in comparison to units that specialize in that role.

Case in point, let's compare Marines to Marauders, units that are supposed to complement each other. Marauders have higher DPS, higher survivability, higher range and a ground slow. Marines just have an air attack and costs less. As you can see, there is rarely a need to build Marines since Marauders are just so much better. All you need now are spellcasters like the Medivac and the Ghost and your army is pretty much complete.



If you have a solution, I'll consider it. Regarding Immortals actually, if they stay in the game as-is, they need a ridiculous bonus like 20+30, otherwise, people won't use them.

I also prefer having 1-2 core units than some random chain of counters. Metagame leads to guessing and luck, and should be minimized.


TBH I can't really argue with that, it's just that 1-2 core units seem low to me and I don't like assuming that everything else is "random chain of counters".
I want to believe that the whole talk about Roaches and Marauders is like pulling BW Siege Tanks and Dragoons out of context and claiming BW is boring because of that as if there is nothing else to see, I believe there is a lot we just haven't seen yet.

You touched my softspot talking about SC1 Queen ;D


Talking about Immortals, they are so different to fight against when they do and do not have their shields. Can't be ways to take their shields down called mechanics?
wwww
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