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Who at Blizzard decided that sensor towers should show the enemy what they cover? Is there a point to designing something and then making it as completely useless as possible? Let's see -- I can't build a sensor tower anywhere that's not in my sphere of protection, because my opponent will see it on the minimap and then just go kill it. I can't build a sensor tower near an expansion that my opponent hasn't scouted yet or I'll tip him off that that expansion is there.
How about lowering their radius and making them secret?
While we're at it, Terran's detection sucks, how about stripping detection from missile turrets and putting it on the sensor tower, so Terran gets a detection option that's not nearly a carbon copy of the other races defensive structures, and Terran gets a much needed boost in scouting which is also novel, since you can see troop movements but not what they have.
It's really fun to stare at an observer following around my units and knowing that it costs more money to kill it than it does to make another one.
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i like the Sensor tower /shrug only thing i would like to see change is price and maybe make it so that a tank can shoot the red dots if they are in range : P
Hate having to have spotters for the Def tanks hehe
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I do agree that Sensor Towers should be changed a bit. It is pointless for them to see the area it covers since they can just avoid that area completely, or now where to take it out. It totally eliminates the possibility of putting one in the center of the map to see incoming attacks.
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I like the detection idea.
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Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
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On March 31 2010 12:21 xnub wrote:
i like the Sensor tower /shrug only thing i would like to see change is price and maybe make it so that a tank can shoot the red dots if they are in range : P
Hate having to have spotters for the Def tanks hehe
I heard that already happens
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You can't catch a Terran by surprise once they have Sensors up. Of course, smart players wouldn't place them on secret expos.
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I like the sensor tower. It's great for catching flanks and drops.
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I also agree with FREEloss with the fact that Terran detection does not suck. There are plenty of things that can detect, especially with scans. I don't think Sensor Towers should be detectors.
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On March 31 2010 12:19 ilnp wrote:
Who at Blizzard decided that sensor towers should show the enemy what they cover? Is there a point to designing something and then making it as completely useless as possible? Let's see -- I can't build a sensor tower anywhere that's not in my sphere of protection, because my opponent will see it on the minimap and then just go kill it. I can't build a sensor tower near an expansion that my opponent hasn't scouted yet or I'll tip him off that that expansion is there.
How about lowering their radius and making them secret?
While we're at it, Terran's detection sucks, how about stripping detection from missile turrets and putting it on the sensor tower, so Terran gets a detection option that's not nearly a carbon copy of the other races defensive structures, and Terran gets a much needed boost in scouting which is also novel, since you can see troop movements but not what they have.
It's really fun to stare at an observer following around my units and knowing that it costs more money to kill it than it does to make another one.
what league are you in?
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oh my god ilnp
where is nextel/hovz
i feel old
No but seriously I feel that sensor towers are fine they way they are.
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On March 31 2010 12:24 fulmetljaket wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:19 ilnp wrote:
Who at Blizzard decided that sensor towers should show the enemy what they cover? Is there a point to designing something and then making it as completely useless as possible? Let's see -- I can't build a sensor tower anywhere that's not in my sphere of protection, because my opponent will see it on the minimap and then just go kill it. I can't build a sensor tower near an expansion that my opponent hasn't scouted yet or I'll tip him off that that expansion is there.
How about lowering their radius and making them secret?
While we're at it, Terran's detection sucks, how about stripping detection from missile turrets and putting it on the sensor tower, so Terran gets a detection option that's not nearly a carbon copy of the other races defensive structures, and Terran gets a much needed boost in scouting which is also novel, since you can see troop movements but not what they have.
It's really fun to stare at an observer following around my units and knowing that it costs more money to kill it than it does to make another one. what league are you in?
Are you trying to talk shit to Dudey?
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Its still tactically useful. Just because your opponent knows its there doesn't mean he can always avoid it. If you put one on the easiest route to your base then it works as a psychological deterrent, encouraging them to attack from other( more defended/difficult routes).
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First off, I entirely disagree with taking detection off missile turrets and putting it on Sensor towers, especially with the 150/150 cost of towers.
However, you are definitely spot on with casting that 270 mineral spell to kill the 50/100 Observer, although it is probably ok to do so as long as you are not mineral blocked since 100 gas is pretty key early on.
Finally, I really hope that they would lower radius and make them not broadcast their radius (which doesnt even make SENSE btw). If that is kept then I'd like to see Overseer sight range (which seems to be HUGE) and maybe they could make observers super shiny...
At least take the radius off the minimap Blizzard, it makes its soo easy to find and kill, especially if we dont put it, as you said it "in my sphere of protection"!
Interesting idea!
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Terran has enough detection. The Sensory tower is just there as an added bonus; like stated, to catch flanks, drops, and to alert you when Roaches, Infestors and DT's are sneaking towards your army.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:21 xnub wrote:
i like the Sensor tower /shrug only thing i would like to see change is price and maybe make it so that a tank can shoot the red dots if they are in range : P
Hate having to have spotters for the Def tanks hehe I heard that already happens
it does =)
and i love sensor towers! 1-2 of them gives me a heap of vision, i also love placing them in the gold mineral patch in metropalis, nearest to me... does a fantastic job of scouting!
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its a good deterance. walking or flying over that circumference is like fuuuuuck this better be fast or im get bopped in the face.
its a really cool mechanic i think.
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Sensor tower is perfectly fine as it is.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
Sensory Tower - is not Detection
Scanner - have to give up what was it 300 - 400 min for 1 scan
Raven - 100 min 200 gas and late tech nuff said
Missle turrent - stactic Def with sort range that can only hit air
ps hideing Sensory Tower in corners where they are hard to see is fun lol
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At first I didn't know my enemy can see the radius of my sensor tower, so I liked then, but I wondered how they always knew where they were and how they were able to find and kill them so easily. I like the idea of reducing the radius but keeping the vision only to the Terran. I think the missile turret is just fine as it is though.
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Sensor tower is fine except for the cost, I think. It just doesn't do enough to justify 150/150- not even close.
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Agree. I like the sensor tower, but as it gives its own game away, it is not worth the money.
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wait, it shows up on the oppositions radar?
that kinda sucks....
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On March 31 2010 12:36 Odds wrote:
Sensor tower is fine except for the cost, I think. It just doesn't do enough to justify 150/150- not even close.
It's 125/100, cheaper than one tank. Totally worth it mid game.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
raven -- requires the second highest tech of the terran army second to BCs and costs 100-200 and takes a long time to build. lets compare this to the overseer which is like a half second to convert from an overlord if you have a lair, which everyone will by the time any cloaked unit comes out. going infantry? sorry, your medivacs are delayed because you are getting a raven. going mech? sorry, you have no gas.
missile turret -- great. 100 minerals. if you have two bases, prepare to plop down 600 minerals to cover them. now stay still until you get a raven
sensor tower -- doesnt detect, but shows you where to comsat or emp, which is a little bonus
comsat - its limited, AND costs you generally more money than that which you are actually killing as a result of the comsat.
you forgot emp
zerg spore crawlers move. you can build one per base and move it around as you need it.
overseers are ridiculously useful and are easy to get when you realize you need it
photon cannons can attack ground too
observers are cloaked, can move, and are amazingly awesome recon wise, come faster than ravens and are cheaper, and are part of a tech which is generally strong all the time.
to whoever asked: im in platnium. you'll notice in platnium (at least in divisions of mine and my friends) that the best terran players often have a high amount of losses compared to good players of other races. i personally would take this as solid evidence that matchups involving terran lend themselves to a lot more 'guesswork' and if you guess wrong, you lose, if you guess right, you win.
i like sensor towers too. i think they're cool, i'd like it if i spent the game with scvs in the trenches trying to hide sensor towers everywhere and my opponent forced to move around trying to find them. they're not cloaked, an scv has to go there to build it, and they're expensive (125/100), so there's a penalty if it dies
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I liked sensor towers at first, or more importantly I liked the idea of them. The cost and fact the enemy can see the giant circle it produces, made me not too keen on making them. TvT and TvZ I might make one, to keep an eye for drops and overlords but that's about it. Reducing range and making it so the enemy can't see the detection radius would make it much nicer and give it more use. Reducing the cost would be nice too, since making one in the earlier stages of the game is usually not the best idea. Or make them salvageable.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 ViruX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:21 xnub wrote:
i like the Sensor tower /shrug only thing i would like to see change is price and maybe make it so that a tank can shoot the red dots if they are in range : P
Hate having to have spotters for the Def tanks hehe I heard that already happens
na i wish would be fucking cool
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On March 31 2010 12:39 lepape wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:36 Odds wrote:
Sensor tower is fine except for the cost, I think. It just doesn't do enough to justify 150/150- not even close. It's 125/100, cheaper than one tank. Totally worth it mid game.
uh, what? you dont think 150/150 is reasonable for vision of esentially half the map?
that is super understandable. its like you get all the benefits of map control without actually having map control ^_^ so cool.
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Doesn't terran have enough turtle power as is the only thing preventing stupid move ins by people is the fact we both can see the circle. It's pretty much map hax over a large area already sure it cost gas but come on... Esp with the boost in turret power
The opponent should at least get a flaring icon that you have one up because if i have to search for them wondering why the terran has like haxxor interception and timing i'll just ffs blow my brains out.
If you get rid of the circle at least give some sort of indicator that one is up in some region i mean that level of real time detection is super powerful in holding a base.
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Agreed. Some changes would be ok. Also, nice sig, OP. Keepin' it classy
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I honestly had no idea my opponent could see my sensor tower range, thanks for the heads-up. D:
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Sweden33719 Posts
raven -- requires the second highest tech of the terran army second to BCs
If by that you mean it requires a starport and a techlab..... then yes? I mean, it's the same as getting a banshee, not that hard =o
I think the raven needs to become all around cheaper tho, but I don't think it's outlandishly hard to get one if all you need it for is detection (i.e if the P opponent opened DTs getting one is a no-brainer).
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On March 31 2010 12:31 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Sensory Tower - is not Detection Scanner - have to give up what was it 300 - 400 min for 1 scan Raven - 100 min 200 gas and late tech nuff said Missle turrent - stactic Def with sort range that can only hit air ps hideing Sensory Tower in corners where they are hard to see is fun lol
Sensory isn't detection but it tells you where to scan/emp
i'm so tired of people saying that using a scan is 300-400 minerals. it is not. it's at best 270 minerals. not 300 and definitely nowhere near 400. if you use MULE on high yield, then yes. it's a lot more but that's not as common as using it on a regular min patch.
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Honestly I find sensor tower to be incredibly useful as it is. Once my nat is up and running and I want to start moving out to secure a 3rd base and pressure my opponent I feel a lot safer having it. I don't care if they can see it. I'm platinum, 1800 before reset.
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I love sensor towers.
Put one at the out skirts of your main and your opponent will not be able to surprise you with an harass on neither your main nor your natural in most maps. Who cares if they can locate its center? If they do approach, you'll already be warned. If they choose to travel that far in within your territory, then they are also taking the risk of having to face the resistance you've already set up because you were signaled of their presence!
I haven't really explored with putting sensor towers in random locations around the map, and frankly you have scans for that. I already do find them incredibly useful for the reasons stated above.
150/150 to shut down nyduses/worker harass at the very least is a good investment, to me. Then again, I play a mech/turtle Terran, so that might be the reason why they work so well for me; I know that my static defense makes building S.towers a safe choice.
If you truly feel the need to lay them across the map for information, then perhaps you should reconsider how it is exactly you work your map control.
And Terrans currently have the highest winning rate on EU servers, if I recall correctly. 60/50ish/42; T/Z/P
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Sensor towers are not meant to be placed randomly about the map, because the enemy will obviously go kill them. Since you will see them coming, this allows you to setup ambushes and flanks for anything coming to do that. This sounds good on paper, but not super practical.
The best application of these is to deter would-be air/drops. If they see that you see, do you think they are still gonna go for it? Chances are reduced dramatically. They're gonna probe around and try and find another hole, if you cover all the corners of your base(s) then he can't get in anywhere without you seeing and moving to prepare for it.
PS- If you open with a viking scout in TvZ, you can time a sensor tower(s) to finish sometime after it gets to the zerg base. Now you know where the lords are scattered around the map. Go kill them and set yourself up to win the game.
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On March 31 2010 13:18 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:31 xnub wrote:On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Sensory Tower - is not Detection Scanner - have to give up what was it 300 - 400 min for 1 scan Raven - 100 min 200 gas and late tech nuff said Missle turrent - stactic Def with sort range that can only hit air ps hideing Sensory Tower in corners where they are hard to see is fun lol Sensory isn't detection but it tells you where to scan/emp i'm so tired of people saying that using a scan is 300-400 minerals. it is not. it's at best 270 minerals. not 300 and definitely nowhere near 400. if you use MULE on high yield, then yes. it's a lot more but that's not as common as using it on a regular min patch.
ummm Detection red dots do not come up for stealthed units .....
and mule is around 300 mins depends on what min patch you put it on in base closer better ! Thats alot of mins for one scan when most times with stealth it takes 1-2 or even 3 if shit gets hairy to get them all.
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In SCII scouting is even more important than SCI. And the sensor tower can give you tremendous information on troop movements and numbers. To me its one of terrans best features. The radius is so large you don't have to put them in the middle of nowhere, on the edge of your base is fine.
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On March 31 2010 12:30 mOnion wrote:
its a good deterance. walking or flying over that circumference is like fuuuuuck this better be fast or im get bopped in the face.
its a really cool mechanic i think.
This is how I see it too. It's almost a mind game. Almost any player would think twice about moving into a Sensor Tower's space. I use them in some games to deter potential drops when I don't have the resources or time to setup a static defense.
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I find the towers to become counter productive in some circumstances. You can feint attacks, and put units in his field of detection, and LET him know you have units there, weather you are going to attack with them or not. If you really are going to harass him, its better to leave units all over the outskirts of his detection than to suddenly rush in, alerting him to there being units inside the perimeter. If you keep units within his view, eventually he deals with them, or ignores them. It can by psychological at that point. Having 50 dots all around your perimeter can cause somebody to turtle hard, when in reality, your FE to a gold or something.
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Or you can counter push/send a scv to scout/scan... Having a sensor tower in your base doesn't make you immobile.
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Wait wait wait, I see a trend in this thread that I don't quite get when it comes to the people complaining about Terran detection, bare with me here:
Missile turrets are static and you'll need a lot of them
Ravens are late in the tech tree, second to Battlecrusiers
What do you notice here?
I don't see what has changed really since Brood War, because I'm sure missile turrets were still static, but only 75 minerals. Also, I'm pretty sure the only unit you needed more tech to get than Science Vessels were Battlecrusiers and Ghosts, and Ghosts have moved UP in tech. yes, you had Scan for 50 energy then and not 270 minerals, but you'll just have to use it conservatively rather than scanning whenever you felt like it.
Maybe the lack of harassing from opponents has prompted people to argue over Missile Turrets as detection and not being useful? No longer do people fear Reaver or Lurker drops, let alone Mutalisk harassment and DTs. But that's just my opinion on that topic, I didn't mean to offend.
As for the OP, Sensor Towers seem pretty good. I'm kind of in agreement that they should not show your opponents their radius, although I feel like there should be no sight range penalty either. The fact that they cost so much balances that out. It's the static version of hovering an Engineering Bay or Barracks around for map and scouting info. A little harder to kill, yes. But it costs 150 gas where as the barracks and engineering bay don't even touch your gas. I just started Randoming and playing from the terran perspective, so I have yet to utilize them myself, however knowing where my opponent's sight radius is didn't do much to me...especially once you have them contained.
On a side note, as a Protoss player in Brood War, it makes me laugh a lot seeing the Terran SC2 players saying they "Have to wait for Ravens to push out and attack" XD.
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Who the hell cares if you can see a sensor tower range? If he's able to then waltz into the heart of your base and destroy it then you deserve to lose it. Who cares if you know a sensor tower is there, there shouldn't be anything they can DO about it.
Have you ever been on the other side of a sensor tower? It completely fucks up any kind of offensive positioning that you wanna do without letting T know a glimpse of what you have at his front door. Aside from that lets look at other advantages.
Let's look at just a few things sensor towers can do:
-Always kill nydus on time
-No drops without knowing well in advance it is happening
-No airspace entry without being seen in advance
-Eliminate the need for scouts nearby the outskirts of your base
-Screw with positioning of the enemy outside of T base
Honestly comparing a sensor tower cost to an observer or overseer is complete lol.
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On March 31 2010 12:21 xnub wrote:
i like the Sensor tower /shrug only thing i would like to see change is price and maybe make it so that a tank can shoot the red dots if they are in range : P
Pretty much agreed. I haven't actually gotten the opportunity to test Tanks being able to use Sensor Tower sight per se or not but if that can't then I think that's an immediate thing for Blizzard to just do.
Otherwise, the Sensor Tower is fine as is but its gas cost needs to get reduced massively. Thus far I have found that Sensor Towers are by far the most useful for meching Terrans because they allow such players to see and respond to threats faster (and, of course, it takes mech longer to respond). In particular, I find it almost absolutely necessary to keep Sensor Tower coverage anywhere I think Zerg might be able to get an Overlord to bring in a Nydus so that I can prioritize getting my Vikings to chase such attempts off (basically, prevent the Nydus from ever happening whereas with bio, it's still a big issue to get Nydused, but the greater mobility allows for a quicker response and perhaps more importantly, a quicker counter-attack if the Nydus is defended; multiple times while bioing or M&M&M + Tanks I have actually just let Zerg Nydus and used Medivacs to drop my Tanks in prime positions while my bio stimmed to arrive in time, held off the assault and killed the Nydus, then promptly picked-up my Tanks into the Medivacs and immediately stormed Zerg's natural + main for an easy win). The current problem with Sensor Towers being most useful to mech is that Sensor Towers are 100 gas each (and you pretty much need *at least* two for them to be seriously useful) and that cuts deeply into the pockets of any meching player.
As far as Sensor Towers displaying their location/radius to enemies, that's perfectly fine. Sensor Towers specifically are not supposed to be used offensively. For that, you have Comsat (it's not 270 minerals to use Comsat- that's merely a situational figure that really does not hold up- and either way information is often worth 270 minerals, just ask Protoss who pay 100/50 for each Observer and furthermore are built from the Robo Fac, taking up valuable time that could have been used to pump more Immortals or Collossi), Hellions, Vikings, Marines standing next to Xel'Nagas, etc... There really is no reason that Terran need that extra form of scouting and arguably no real reason you should want to shove out 100 gas for it either other than to be extraordinarily lazy (if you really want to build a structure to know when you opponent expands somewhere that they can't see on the minimap until they stumble over it, plop down Supply Depots behind expo mineral deposits; or, if you're doing this later in the game, slap down Missile Turrets since they cost the same and might shoot a Warp Prism down or something if your opponent isn't paying attention to it).
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I think the missile turret is fine, i don't see any reason why terran plays now dont set up missile turrets all over the map as they push out, its just as doable as it was in BW. The only difference now is the trend for terran is to get M&M instead of mech, but as gameplay trends change i see both of those building gaining importance, with a mid game mech push now the terran can set up sensor towers as they move forward which will help with the placement of the much less mobile tanks because you will now know where his army is moving yeah he knows where the tower is but any good player knows when you are pushing out and where your army is because he is scouting also. anyways just a thought i think ill probably try it out.
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Everybody is saying sensor towers are good they're wonderful they're fine... so why aren't they showing up in tournaments? I think I saw a sensor tower go up... once... in a week one tourney. when the terran lost.
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Its use seems quite to clear to me... You put a sensor tower in a good position (one your opponent already knows of, of course) and you're pretty much immune to any unexpected attacks in the radius. How is that not nice later in the game with split maps etc? Sure they can see it, so it also acts as a nice deterrant.
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On March 31 2010 15:18 faction123 wrote:
Its use seems quite to clear to me... You put a sensor tower in a good position (one your opponent already knows of, of course) and you're pretty much immune to any unexpected attacks in the radius. How is that not nice later in the game with split maps etc? Sure they can see it, so it also acts as a nice deterrant.
why not put them somewhere and get him to divert his army to that location?
has worked for me on occasion 
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On March 31 2010 15:15 USn wrote:
Everybody is saying sensor towers are good they're wonderful they're fine... so why aren't they showing up in tournaments? I think I saw a sensor tower go up... once... in a week one tourney. when the terran lost.
Because Mech/Turtle play favor the use of Sensor Towers as you aren't as mobile, and nobody likes to Turtle Terran it seems.
The fact that a T player lost is also irrelevant .
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On March 31 2010 15:15 USn wrote:
Everybody is saying sensor towers are good they're wonderful they're fine... so why aren't they showing up in tournaments? I think I saw a sensor tower go up... once... in a week one tourney. when the terran lost.
I think a few of the Terrans who played in those tournaments and who post here regularly have indicated that they really should be using Sensor Towers more to make their lives easier but they just haven't quite worked them in yet. Personally, I think the biggest issue is gas. Also, in TvZ and TvP, most Terrans are playing bio which is "mobile enough" to deal with crap like Nyduses and etc without too much pain- kinda at that crossroads where the 125/100 spent on a Sensor Tower would be better for another Marauder or to go towards a Ghost so that when/if such a thing happened it could be met with greater force. But overall really, I think the issue is more the really high gas cost and also players are still ironing out many other aspects of their builds and when to get a Sensor Tower, where to place it, etc... is yet to come.
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the sensor tower is really useful in defending mutalisk harass though, i can get my units ready
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sensor towers are very good. You just need to understand how they work
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Well, I don't play Terran, but I know from my perspective the Sensor Tower definitely affects the way I play vs Terran.
For one, I don't even *attempt* drops or nydus worms when I see a tower up on the flanks of his base. So, in a way, for the cost of one tower they're preventing any further drops.
Also, it does definitely affect the way I attack. But...you can use this against a Terran player, as well. Oftentimes I'll trick my enemy by moving a bunch of zerglings or other parts of my army into his sensor tower range, but in reality i'll have my real attack hitting where his tower is not detecting... his troops have been diverted because the imminent attack he's expecting.
This has worked in my favor a few times.
I feel like they're good, but they need to be used effectively and the gas cost should come down a little bit.
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T has best detecion of all 3 races...
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i think sensor towers r fine as they r now, would be pretty imba if opponent couldnt see them
id like if u could upgrade detection on them tho in the ebay
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I actually completely forget to build them. I've always liked the ideas of them but half the time I forget they're in the game.
I'll get some more use out of them while I'm playing today. I'm not quite sure why Missile Turrets cost 100 minerals now, it's such a set back to even build one for detection, but I'm not complaining.
Sensor towers really help as long as you put them near your base, which to be honest is where you want them. It helps you defend and you can easily put some up along your attack path if nessecary. Does anyone know if you can Salvage them?
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I think the real reason why Terrans are whining so badly about detection is because they're the mos susceptible to cloaked units. Yeah, you can open up banshees and cloak in TvP and TvZ, but that's not the most common approach to games, so there are actually few units where Terran can actually pressure with cloak, eliminating the need for Protoss and Zerg to go early detection.
But on the other hand, since Zerg has roaches (fucking moving lil bitches), and Protoss has Dark Templars (grr....), at earlier stages of the game, Terran's detection DOES need a boost. Scanners are the same as MULES, and some Terrans overextend their MULES, which makes Dark Templars so much more powerful. The only real way to deflect these cloaked units are with Engineering bays and turrets, but I don't know how viable that actually is.....
Maybe it is viable, and maybe I'm just paranoid. But my ultimate point is this, Terran detection is the best BECAUSE they need detection more.
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Burrow and Dark Templars in early game, what?
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they should make it once you see the actual tower then you can see its range or something, the auto giveaway is gay
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Sensor towers are underused, they are really good.
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it really annoys me the way noobs talk about mules, they act like you HAVE TO use every mule asap or else you lose because you will get outmacrod LOL
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The only problem I see with sensory tower is they are so (gas) expensive.
Oh and scanning to kill an observer >> mule, for so many reasons.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 01 2010 00:05 duckhunt wrote:
it really annoys me the way noobs talk about mules, they act like you HAVE TO use every mule asap or else you lose because you will get outmacrod LOL
I personally feel my macro has gotten to be quite good, alot of the time I can't find room to mule later in the game because I'd much rather scan to check on the enemies army than get another 270 minerals when I'm not really starving for them.
I've been going by Mule, Mule, Scan for the first three, then for the rest of the game, doing whatever I feel I need to do, like get a boost in minerals to expo or whatever. It's one of the main reasons I like Terran as we've got that choice to make, but yeah as I said I'm going to have to see how the Sensor tower affects how much I actually need to scan.
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Idea for sensor tower: It automatically comsat scans its surrounding area every few minuets. Just throwing it out there.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
^ This. And this guy put it nicely. I was about to insult your intelligence.
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On March 31 2010 15:35 BentoBox wrote:The fact that a T player lost is also irrelevant .
You're misusing your skepticism. The implication is that I've never seen a tournament terran who won build a sensor tower.
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On April 01 2010 04:27 USn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 15:35 BentoBox wrote:The fact that a T player lost is also irrelevant . You're misusing your skepticism. The implication is that I've never seen a tournament terran who won build a sensor tower.
Why you would even argue a correlation between the building of a S.Tower and a player's loss is beyond me.
The tower provides information and denies harass. If Players choose not to build them, then they probably feel they have all their bases covered.
That is all.
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On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years.
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On March 31 2010 12:27 nik_0_0 wrote:
Finally, I really hope that they would lower radius and make them not broadcast their radius (which doesnt even make SENSE btw)
ever used a radar detector?
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Sensor towers don't detect.
But there are a few more uses for sensor towers... if you place them in some inaccessable location that overlooks a main pathway, you'll get some good info on when your opponent is massing up an army/what units is he massing up (since you can identify them by speed and size).
the problem is risking that 100 gas. If the sensor tower was not this expensive, then every terran would just spam them.
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On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned.
that hardly looks like an "attack" to me. is it really that easy to get banned on this board?
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This is an off topic question but it still relates to sensor towers. What buildings/units do the other races have that do something similar like the sensor tower? Why did Blizzard decide to incorporate the sensor tower in with Terran? Was it due to zerg's ability to burrow underground (idk if sensor towers can detect burrowed movement) or cloaked units(idk this either).
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On April 01 2010 09:12 G4T0R4D3 wrote:
This is an off topic question but it still relates to sensor towers. What buildings/units do the other races have that do something similar like the sensor tower? Why did Blizzard decide to incorporate the sensor tower in with Terran? Was it due to zerg's ability to burrow underground (idk if sensor towers can detect burrowed movement) or cloaked units(idk this either).
It can't see burrowed or cloaked units, but if a unit walks within range and than burrows, you will know where it burrowed. Why would zerg and protoss have a similar building? It's just another aspect that is distinctive to Terran, and fitting to have a building serve as radar.
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On April 01 2010 09:12 G4T0R4D3 wrote:
This is an off topic question but it still relates to sensor towers. What buildings/units do the other races have that do something similar like the sensor tower? Why did Blizzard decide to incorporate the sensor tower in with Terran? Was it due to zerg's ability to burrow underground (idk if sensor towers can detect burrowed movement) or cloaked units(idk this either).
xDark hit part of this on the head in that it kinda makes sense for Terran from a storyline standpoint, but of course Blizzard seems to be rather more concerned about gameplay than that. In that department, the most obvious concern for Terran against Zerg and Protoss are Nydus Worms and Warp Prisms/Proxy Pylons, respectively. This is a bigger issue for Terran than for Zerg or Protoss as Z has the easily-spammable at a moment's notice Speedlings while P can warp in reinforcements via Warp Gates to the nearest Pylon.
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On April 01 2010 09:12 G4T0R4D3 wrote:
This is an off topic question but it still relates to sensor towers. What buildings/units do the other races have that do something similar like the sensor tower? Why did Blizzard decide to incorporate the sensor tower in with Terran? Was it due to zerg's ability to burrow underground (idk if sensor towers can detect burrowed movement) or cloaked units(idk this either).
Think about it.
What is scan? It's the ability to see any location on the map with nothing more than 50 energy, and nobody can stop you. Seeing the map has always been a part of Terran play.
What better to compliment a race that has the ability to reveal any spot on the map than to be able to see things without actually getting vision over them?
The drawn radius is simply a balancing factor, allowing other races to see where this area of vision is. This is just like other races get to see where you're scanning.
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does sensory tower red dot cloaked units? I'm assuming it does?
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"Terrans detection really sucks" gave me a chuckle.
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On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years.
dude my mom says meaner things to me on valentines day
other than my clear ignorance as to the awesomeness of terran detection, does anyone else agree with me that the sensor tower showing it's net is totally stupid?
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On April 01 2010 01:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 00:05 duckhunt wrote:
it really annoys me the way noobs talk about mules, they act like you HAVE TO use every mule asap or else you lose because you will get outmacrod LOL I personally feel my macro has gotten to be quite good, alot of the time I can't find room to mule later in the game because I'd much rather scan to check on the enemies army than get another 270 minerals when I'm not really starving for them. I've been going by Mule, Mule, Scan for the first three, then for the rest of the game, doing whatever I feel I need to do, like get a boost in minerals to expo or whatever. It's one of the main reasons I like Terran as we've got that choice to make, but yeah as I said I'm going to have to see how the Sensor tower affects how much I actually need to scan.
i do that as well... although depends what buildings i see going up with my SCV, if it appears to be something nasty, i'll scan sooner... but i find i normally have my OC and first mule down before my SCV dies... if i see either mass gateway/rax or quick tech, i'll scan sooner =)
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On April 01 2010 08:45 BentoBox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 04:27 USn wrote:On March 31 2010 15:35 BentoBox wrote:The fact that a T player lost is also irrelevant . You're misusing your skepticism. The implication is that I've never seen a tournament terran who won build a sensor tower. Why you would even argue a correlation between the building of a S.Tower and a player's loss is beyond me. The tower provides information and denies harass. If Players choose not to build them, then they probably feel they have all their bases covered. That is all.
No offense, but you're really misreading my post. It's naive to assume I mean building a sensor tower is actively causing a player's loss... but if building them doesn't provide an advantage then they are effectively the same thing since the same number of sensor towers will be built. Which is zero.
There is demonstrably no correlation in tournament play between building a tower and winning. The burden of proof is on the person who advocates making them.
EDIT: And what is your point about the optimal strategies not supporting towers? That's just pushing the issue back one step. If towers only work in bad strats that's supposed to mean something?
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It's also fairly naive to rely on current trends as foundation for absolutism.
But hey, who knows.
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Make it cheaper gas wise and we can dial it in from there.
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At first I thought it was expensive too, but its a passive effect. Will putting up a sensor tower prevent you from losing 150/150? Probably not. But it could save you from losing 6-8 workers quite often, and this seems pretty good. Combining this with just knowing when you're opponent is coming seems useful for the lower tier players. I don't know about higher ranks, because I think that they already WILL have a good idea of what/where the enemy has/is, so the gas could be spent on something far more useful (an extra starport+tech lab sounds pretty good).
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How about just getting a viking or a medivac for scout to serve as this "harass preventer" if you are so worried about it. Opportunity cost is the main issue.
I don't think many terrans are willing to utilize their resource early game just for a sensor tower, since they are probably turtling and have enough of a force to prevent harass anyways.
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On April 01 2010 17:14 kyophan wrote:
How about just getting a viking or a medivac for scout to serve as this "harass preventer" if you are so worried about it. Opportunity cost is the main issue.
I don't think many terrans are willing to utilize their resource early game just for a sensor tower, since they are probably turtling and have enough of a force to prevent harass anyways.
Against Zerg, I'd consider the possibility of a Nydus quite a bit more than just a "harass". As well, I don't think you're going to be keeping tabs on the location of every single Overlord your enemy has every second of the game (judging by the very recent use of 2-Port Wraith by a Terran player in one of the very recent OSL/MSL matches- don't want to spoil- who despite having plenty of Wraiths to head off sizable drops let Speed Overlords get through multiple times to land multiple major drops).
But then again, I also have not seen Nyduses used much in these tournaments recently either (except for one very notable game played by none other than TheLittleOne!).
Side note, but if you've got some passive observation of what's around your base, you can generally afford to be more aggressive with what you have; for example, rather than just keeping Vikings poking around your base, they can be harassing your opponent, killing their Overlords, etc... You may also be able to cut down on the number of Vikings you need.
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On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years.
How did I attack him? Legendary or not, this is a forum; if I disagree with someone and have my own opinion, I'm going to post it; you know, for the sake of...discussion?
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nice trick I did was playing 2p on a 4 player map, building one up the back of one of the unused Xpos and hiding some tanks nearby. Build a token supply depot or something near the ramp as well and try and lure their army up and into the base. Then siege your tanks in range of the ramp and presto, their army is locked in or forced to take an assload of damage to get in. Proceeed to demolish them with the rest of your forces. It's worked twice for me 
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On April 01 2010 18:37 FREEloss_ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years. How did I attack him? Legendary or not, this is a forum; if I disagree with someone and have my own opinion, I'm going to post it; you know, for the sake of...discussion?
Also: Sensor towers don't detect, so you should figure that out before "disagreeing".
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
ilnp:
bitching about the sensory tower is terrible.
It literally reveals the movement/unit count of HALF the map. It is dirt cheap (Note: People bitching about the cost cannot FATHOM it being cheaper, you'd make 3 of them a game and see EVERYTHING).
The tower is incredibly powerful as opponents will literally go out of there way to avoid the circle so think about the damn meta game you can do with that.. it can scout multiple expansions, entire backdoors, frontdoors.. etc etc etc.. the recon value of that thing is incomparable to ANYTHING zerg or protoss has.. and you want it to do MORE?
If you give it "detection" it is OP x100. Reveal that radius removes the purpose of half the units in SC2.
If you increase the range it is imba because it's range is already unparalleled to anything else in the game.
If you make them cheaper you could not find a T game where the map isn't fully revealed to a terran and that would get old REAL fast.
I think they are an incredibly underused, brilliant mechanic that exist as a clear reminder for how retarded terran players are. They'd rather have the 2 marauders than something that reveals a third of the map EVERY game.
This thread is bad, this complaint is worse and the idea of a buff going to this mechanic is ludicrous.
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On April 01 2010 18:54 EximoSua2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 18:37 FREEloss_ca wrote:On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years. How did I attack him? Legendary or not, this is a forum; if I disagree with someone and have my own opinion, I'm going to post it; you know, for the sake of...discussion? Also: Sensor towers don't detect, so you should figure that out before "disagreeing".
Maybe you should learn "math".
Then you'd realize that 3>2.
Seriously?
Also, ^ amen.
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Why not make the thing be able to pull itself underground and gain a high amount of armor but have it turned off?
That way its not as silly vulnerable and doesn't really screw with the balance of the game? It really doesn't make sense to have weak defense and expensive and weak front-line structures.
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Who made it a front-line structure?
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On March 31 2010 12:19 ilnp wrote:
While we're at it, Terran's detection sucks
please explain this in details
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I think sensor tower / cannons showing their range to the enemy is a bug, at least I hope because I totally laugh when terran put then up and I just circle around it with my army and they think they are safe.
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On April 01 2010 19:08 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
ilnp:
bitching about the sensory tower is terrible.
It literally reveals the movement/unit count of HALF the map. It is dirt cheap (Note: People bitching about the cost cannot FATHOM it being cheaper, you'd make 3 of them a game and see EVERYTHING).
The tower is incredibly powerful as opponents will literally go out of there way to avoid the circle so think about the damn meta game you can do with that.. it can scout multiple expansions, entire backdoors, frontdoors.. etc etc etc.. the recon value of that thing is incomparable to ANYTHING zerg or protoss has.. and you want it to do MORE?
If you give it "detection" it is OP x100. Reveal that radius removes the purpose of half the units in SC2.
If you increase the range it is imba because it's range is already unparalleled to anything else in the game.
If you make them cheaper you could not find a T game where the map isn't fully revealed to a terran and that would get old REAL fast.
I think they are an incredibly underused, brilliant mechanic that exist as a clear reminder for how retarded terran players are. They'd rather have the 2 marauders than something that reveals a third of the map EVERY game.
This thread is bad, this complaint is worse and the idea of a buff going to this mechanic is ludicrous.
i actually don't think they are terrible, i think it's extremely annoying that it's a cool mechanic and it's grossly handicapped by opponents seeing the circle. i do agree there is "metagame" involved in having that circle, but i think most "metagame" stuff is retarded.
i did not think whatsoever the range should be increased. i think the range should be dropped and the circle not displayed. since the range is displayed, you can never hide one, you simply can put a couple up in the middle of your base and enjoy the defacto advance warning on drops, backdoors, etc.
on the flip side, smaller range and no circle means that the T will spend a lot of time trying to hide these anywhere a xel naga wont spot them and the other race will spend a lot of time trying to kill them. this opens up the game much like the "mini battles" over the watchtowers and expansion scouts which i always found entertaining.
i'm not saying the price is spot on or what % to reduce the range, just saying the general concept would be much funner if the opponent didnt know the instant you built one
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The amount of terran detection > P and Z's detection. Having 2 sensor towers prevents any flanking that could be done by mutas.
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Love the Tower in Desert Oasis and Scrap Station, however it'd be cool if they were transportable by mediavecs. Imagine to drop them into spots where ground units can't go to.
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Not gonna comment on Sensors specifically but frankly is it really the end of the world to have 1 or 2 units be considered "useless" by the competitive gaming scene? No one seems to really mind that Scouts are too expensive, ineffective in 99% of competitive BW games, and the same applied to Valkyries, Ghosts, etc. at one point in history. They will be used by the casual gamer and add a nice element of playability to the game, and then once in a while a "useless unit" will see action in a competitive game (like the rare nuke etc.), but for the most part there's already a wide selection of useable units per race for 1 or 2 useless ones not to matter.
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On April 02 2010 01:06 PanoRaMa wrote:
Not gonna comment on Sensors specifically but frankly is it really the end of the world to have 1 or 2 units be considered "useless" by the competitive gaming scene? No one seems to really mind that Scouts are too expensive, ineffective in 99% of competitive BW games, and the same applied to Valkyries, Ghosts, etc. at one point in history. They will be used by the casual gamer and add a nice element of playability to the game, and then once in a while a "useless unit" will see action in a competitive game (like the rare nuke etc.), but for the most part there's already a wide selection of useable units per race for 1 or 2 useless ones not to matter.
I doubt that is the attitude we are supposed to have in a competitive game.
I'm sure blizzard wouldn't mind buffing underused (useless) units like scouts, but they just don't want to mess anything up since SC1 is pretty big in Korea, you know..
My opinion is that if something is in a game it should be used at least once every 10 games by competitive players.
If it's not good enough to be used, why force this stupid "hey, we have soo many units and cool abilities in this game, too bad half of them are unusable at high levels" gimmick?
Just remove it, it wastes space.
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On April 02 2010 01:02 Frenzied_Tank wrote:
Love the Tower in Desert Oasis and Scrap Station, however it'd be cool if they were transportable by mediavecs. Imagine to drop them into spots where ground units can't go to.
Or you could, you know, carry a SCV.
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Which would still make it not transportable.
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But you can still drop them and build sensor towers in places unreachable by ground units...
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On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible.
Sensor tower isn't a detector and you can't use scan at all early game or you get owned economically. Mules just catch you up, they don't give you an edge. Ravens are tier 3 tech.
Observers are cheap and cloaked. Overseers are too fast to kill if you get overlord speed, so being squishy is irrelevant.
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Detection is definitely a Terran weakness. Threatening to use cloaked units actually requires a significant mineral investment from the Terran to defend himself, not including what they have to do if they want to attack.
Trying to solve that problem with the Sensor Tower is kinda silly though - it's a defensive structure. The fact that the opponent can see the radius is actually something you can use to your advantage - you're giving them incentive to avoid that area.
Gretorp puts these near his expansions all the time in TvZ because it keeps Mutas away, and they let him keep his army further away from the 'center' spot between bases. He can lean more in one direction than another.
My only gripe with Sensor Towers is that they cost a lot. I'd like to see them cost a little less gas or minerals, like 25 less in either category.
If Terran detection is too weak, another idea might be to add a second type of scan to the Orbital Command Center that only costs 25 energy, doesn't give vision, and just decloaks units in that area for a short time. Don't forget ghost emp too, which is mostly used for hating on DT's. There's no reason to build it against Banshees, and you aren't going to randomly guess where the burrowed banelings are with a 2 radius emp.
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On April 02 2010 01:21 MidKnight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 01:06 PanoRaMa wrote:
Not gonna comment on Sensors specifically but frankly is it really the end of the world to have 1 or 2 units be considered "useless" by the competitive gaming scene? No one seems to really mind that Scouts are too expensive, ineffective in 99% of competitive BW games, and the same applied to Valkyries, Ghosts, etc. at one point in history. They will be used by the casual gamer and add a nice element of playability to the game, and then once in a while a "useless unit" will see action in a competitive game (like the rare nuke etc.), but for the most part there's already a wide selection of useable units per race for 1 or 2 useless ones not to matter. I doubt that is the attitude we are supposed to have in a competitive game. I'm sure blizzard wouldn't mind buffing underused (useless) units like scouts, but they just don't want to mess anything up since SC1 is pretty big in Korea, you know.. My opinion is that if something is in a game it should be used at least once every 10 games by competitive players. If it's not good enough to be used, why force this stupid "hey, we have soo many units and cool abilities in this game, too bad half of them are unusable at high levels" gimmick? Just remove it, it wastes space.
First of all, it's just one building. It is not "half of them" or anything even remotely close to that. It's one. No need for the hyperbole.
Second, so? If there are "noob" buildings or units, how does that hurt competitive play? It "wastes space," but since you're arguing for the removal of it, it's not like this space was going to be used by something, is it?
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I think the major issue with terran detection in general is that Raven is kinda bad and doesn't justify itself on the battlefield pre HSM. Maybe it's just me but I find all three spells kinda lame (though admittedly, HSM is ridiculously good).
I'd like to see some kind of overhaul on the spells and when/how they are upgraded.
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How about leaving the sensor tower at the same price it is, not let it reveal itself on the minimap and not let it's radius be seen on the map except if you bring a detector?
Opponents attacking blindly get owned because the terran knows they're coming but those with a detector can see the tower's reach and plan ahead or against it. It also even makes some sense lore wise, what with detectors being sensitive units that can detect whatever it is the sensor tower is emitting to sense it's surroundings.
Also, even if you can't see the exact location of the now unrevealed tower, once your detector lets you see the circular guideline of the tower's reach, you should be able to tell where the center of that circle is located.
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IMO, the sensor tower as a concept hurts the game, since it makes harass a lot harder to pull off. We have few enough econ harassment drops in the game as it is, and the sensor tower isn't making it any easier.
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On April 02 2010 02:50 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 01:21 MidKnight wrote:On April 02 2010 01:06 PanoRaMa wrote:
Not gonna comment on Sensors specifically but frankly is it really the end of the world to have 1 or 2 units be considered "useless" by the competitive gaming scene? No one seems to really mind that Scouts are too expensive, ineffective in 99% of competitive BW games, and the same applied to Valkyries, Ghosts, etc. at one point in history. They will be used by the casual gamer and add a nice element of playability to the game, and then once in a while a "useless unit" will see action in a competitive game (like the rare nuke etc.), but for the most part there's already a wide selection of useable units per race for 1 or 2 useless ones not to matter. I doubt that is the attitude we are supposed to have in a competitive game. I'm sure blizzard wouldn't mind buffing underused (useless) units like scouts, but they just don't want to mess anything up since SC1 is pretty big in Korea, you know.. My opinion is that if something is in a game it should be used at least once every 10 games by competitive players. If it's not good enough to be used, why force this stupid "hey, we have soo many units and cool abilities in this game, too bad half of them are unusable at high levels" gimmick? Just remove it, it wastes space. First of all, it's just one building. It is not "half of them" or anything even remotely close to that. It's one. No need for the hyperbole. Second, so? If there are "noob" buildings or units, how does that hurt competitive play? It "wastes space," but since you're arguing for the removal of it, it's not like this space was going to be used by something, is it?
Well, this "some units are meant to be useless" is a bad way to balance games.
In SC it happened and we simply got used to it.
Doesn't mean that we just have to accept it as a norm if we can give suggestions to balance it out
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On April 02 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
I think the major issue with terran detection in general is that Raven is kinda bad and doesn't justify itself on the battlefield pre HSM. Maybe it's just me but I find all three spells kinda lame (though admittedly, HSM is ridiculously good).
I'd like to see some kind of overhaul on the spells and when/how they are upgraded. I find point defense drone ridiculously good against stalkers and marauders. One can significantly cut down the incoming damage long enough for your stimmed bio ball to rock him.
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You can target those drones, can't you? Yeah, it would make the tower alot more fun if you couldnt see it on the map.
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On April 02 2010 05:14 cartoon]x wrote:
You can target those drones, can't you? Yeah, it would make the tower alot more fun if you couldnt see it on the map. Yes they can be destroyed, but the range is good enough that you can place them down behind your bio ball, forcing your opponent to run through your fire line to get to them.
As far as the sensor tower goes, I'd rather the opponents not be able to see the tower's range until they have seen the tower itself. That way, once you know it's there, you don't have to memorize the screen-and-a-half range, but you can still hide the things for sneaky forewarning.
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On April 02 2010 03:02 Doomgaze wrote:
I think the major issue with terran detection in general is that Raven is kinda bad and doesn't justify itself on the battlefield pre HSM. Maybe it's just me but I find all three spells kinda lame (though admittedly, HSM is ridiculously good).
I'd like to see some kind of overhaul on the spells and when/how they are upgraded.
Wait, wut? Auto-Turrets don't do a ton of damage (although they still do quite a bit), but their massive utility is that they are treated as structures and they solidly block the grid space they occupy. Just a few Ravens can go a long way towards keeping enemy units out of range of your Siege Tanks.
Not to mention Point Defense Drones easily turn the tides of battle between Vikings and mass Mutas and plenty of other battles as well.
Kinda interesting that with HSM, Blizzard gave us a more general-purpose Irradiate (although in some ways I still prefer proper Irradiate) while with Point Defense Drones Blizzard gave us a more situational D-Matrix (but it affects more than one unit).
On April 02 2010 04:31 Jyvblamo wrote:
IMO, the sensor tower as a concept hurts the game, since it makes harass a lot harder to pull off. We have few enough econ harassment drops in the game as it is, and the sensor tower isn't making it any easier.
In that case, Nydus Worms hurt the game because they aren't harass, but rather an extremely sneaky and relatively easy way to get an entire Zerg army into the back of an opponent's base. As such, to combat them it becomes mandatory that all races be able to respond quickly to such an insane threat (as noted before, Zerg have creep bonuses and ofc their own Nyduses while Protoss have Warp Gates; Terran have pretty much nothing except Sensor Towers to offer a chance to preemptively kill anything that has a chance of getting sight to spawn a Nydus or to at least alert the Terran player as soon as possible that a Nydus is coming up to allow Vikings to be landed to kill it before 20 seconds or whatever).
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On April 01 2010 18:54 EximoSua2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 18:37 FREEloss_ca wrote:On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years. How did I attack him? Legendary or not, this is a forum; if I disagree with someone and have my own opinion, I'm going to post it; you know, for the sake of...discussion? Also: Sensor towers don't detect, so you should figure that out before "disagreeing".
They don't reveal cloaked or burrowed units, but they detect the location and movements of every fucking enemy unit on the map, including cloaked and burrowed units; so therefor the entire element of suprise is gone; they might as well not be cloaked or burrowed.....
Therefore, they're a form of detection.
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On April 01 2010 12:19 BentoBox wrote:
It's also fairly naive to rely on current trends as foundation for absolutism.
There's no 'absolutism' in what I said.
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I like putting up sensor towers to cover bases when I push out to see counterattacks or harassment coming super early.. every once in awhile I'll build a few across the map also while I'm pushing because even though they can see them, you can see his troop movement also while they're up which is pretty nice.
I wouldn't mind making the radius smaller and having them not be seen by the opponent though.
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On April 02 2010 08:33 USn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 12:19 BentoBox wrote:
It's also fairly naive to rely on current trends as foundation for absolutism. There's no 'absolutism' in what I said.
And so your anecdotal evidence was totally meaningless.
Frankly, arguing with people who choose to let others do the work for them is tiring.
Thank you for posting.
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On April 02 2010 06:18 FREEloss_ca wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 18:54 EximoSua2 wrote:On April 01 2010 18:37 FREEloss_ca wrote:On April 01 2010 09:04 Jin wrote:On March 31 2010 12:22 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Scanner
Raven
Missle Turret
Sensory Tower
Therefore: Terran detection sucks?
Get out.
While we're at it, lets compare:
Zerg:
Overseer (Costs 150 minerals/100 gas) is squishy, requires Lair
Spore Crawler...
Protoss:
Observers
Photon Cannons
Terran has twice as much detection as the other races; most of which is more easily accessible. Attacking legendary posters is an easy way to get banned. Nice to see an ilnp post after who knows how many years. How did I attack him? Legendary or not, this is a forum; if I disagree with someone and have my own opinion, I'm going to post it; you know, for the sake of...discussion? Also: Sensor towers don't detect, so you should figure that out before "disagreeing". They don't reveal cloaked or burrowed units, but they detect the location and movements of every fucking enemy unit on the map, including cloaked and burrowed units; so therefor the entire element of suprise is gone; they might as well not be cloaked or burrowed..... Therefore, they're a form of detection.
You're wrong about that too.
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sensor tower is fine. just be glad you don't have to throw away an overlord every game you play against terran just to know if he is going banshees or not. ugh.
"here's 100 minerals and 8 supply of mine. enjoy"
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^
As opposed to "here's 270 minerals of mine. enjoy"? :D
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I don't think it would be fair to remove the radius for the opponent. Like others have said, it would basically make it a "map hack" until you kill it. When people build sensor towers, I just feel that from the moment it goes up, the next few minutes they're gonna be turtling and building economy. Why else would you throw up a sensor tower? Doesn't make sense to build it then move out and harass.
I just wind up expanding because of it and I never get punished in that time frame even if I don't have the army support to defend. And slowly the game becomes a "I have more map control than you" situation.
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why is everyone shitting a brick over the gas cost. it's 100 gas. the point in the game where you'd build sensor towers, you'd lose way more in gas losing units due to a surprise attack or carelessness. imagine how many stray medivacs or vikings or reapers sitting around the map you could save if you could have several extra seconds in reaction time to save them from impending doom. the only reason i don't use sensor towers more in my play is because it often slips my mind, it's definitely something i'll be incorporating in my play more.
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On April 02 2010 18:07 newbcake wrote:
why is everyone shitting a brick over the gas cost. it's 100 gas. the point in the game where you'd build sensor towers, you'd lose way more in gas losing units due to a surprise attack or carelessness. imagine how many stray medivacs or vikings or reapers sitting around the map you could save if you could have several extra seconds in reaction time to save them from impending doom. the only reason i don't use sensor towers more in my play is because it often slips my mind, it's definitely something i'll be incorporating in my play more.
This. I just forget this building. I cannot count how many times where it would have saved me trouble. Drops, mutas and reapers - all of them suddenly become more manageable.
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On April 02 2010 18:07 newbcake wrote:
why is everyone shitting a brick over the gas cost. it's 100 gas. the point in the game where you'd build sensor towers, you'd lose way more in gas losing units due to a surprise attack or carelessness. imagine how many stray medivacs or vikings or reapers sitting around the map you could save if you could have several extra seconds in reaction time to save them from impending doom. the only reason i don't use sensor towers more in my play is because it often slips my mind, it's definitely something i'll be incorporating in my play more.
Don't forget the part where the tower doesn't actually do anything. If your opponent goes all-in, and you're missing out on 200 gas because you built towers to feel safer about your situation, you're at a significant disadvantage. That's potentially 8 marauders worth of gas. 2 Vikings and change, etc.
I think Sensor Towers were meant to address specific threats, and maybe be used at certain times. They don't help me at all if my opponent is just expanding and dominating with map control, but if I'm in the lead, they can really help me seal it by not being surprised by drops/harassment etc.
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On April 02 2010 16:00 Doomgaze wrote:
^
As opposed to "here's 270 minerals of mine. enjoy"? :D
Get it in your heads people. Scans cost NOTHING. Mules do not create money, they simply give it to you faster. You will mine out your base anyways, and 1 base on full saturation terran has an advantage over any other race.
You will not lose the game because you scan, in fact you might even win because you get *gasp* intel which is oh-so-valuable. Moreso then 270 minerals that you would have gotten anyways. You are in no way LOSING 270 minerals when you scan.
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It still eliminates your new Macro mechanic for 50 energy while your opponent gets to use theirs. So because it is vital to scan to be able to react to Zerg, you are put at a huge economic disadvantage. 50 energy for the Zerg is 8 larva. 270 minerals is inferior to 8 larva enough as it is, it's even worse when you have to justify scouting knowledge (scan) as equal to 8 larva.
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On April 03 2010 01:19 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 16:00 Doomgaze wrote:
^
As opposed to "here's 270 minerals of mine. enjoy"? :D Get it in your heads people. Scans cost NOTHING. Mules do not create money, they simply give it to you faster. You will mine out your base anyways, and 1 base on full saturation terran has an advantage over any other race. You will not lose the game because you scan, in fact you might even win because you get *gasp* intel which is oh-so-valuable. Moreso then 270 minerals that you would have gotten anyways. You are in no way LOSING 270 minerals when you scan.
I guess you don't lose anything when you pull all your SCVs off mining to defend then either, I mean, you're gonna mine it out anyway. Why even build SCVs, they cost 50 minerals but they don't give you anything that the six starter SCVs aren't gonna give you anyway. Bastards.
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On April 02 2010 16:00 Doomgaze wrote:
^
As opposed to "here's 270 minerals of mine. enjoy"? :D
not really, terran have other scouting options early in the game. like reapers, which jump cliffs, can kill stuff and get out quick.
terran scouting/detection is fine.
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Terran detection is awful. All you need to do to see that is look at the TvT matchup. Rushing to stealth air is so dominant as a strategy and sooo lame and not fun. I don't even care about the stupid sensor tower though, unless they want to make is cost 25 gas or less.
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On April 02 2010 14:20 BentoBox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 08:33 USn wrote:On April 01 2010 12:19 BentoBox wrote:
It's also fairly naive to rely on current trends as foundation for absolutism. There's no 'absolutism' in what I said. And so your anecdotal evidence was totally meaningless. Frankly, arguing with people who choose to let others do the work for them is tiring. Thank you for posting.
Seriously, are you just trying to waste my time?
Recap:
I have never seen a sensor tower contribute to a victory, since I've only ever seen *one* built and it was irrelevant - the terran lost. This implies that in it's current form the sensor tower could use a tweak to fit strats or the game's strats could use a tweak to fit it, which one I don't say.
And 'trends' is a BS response, the game is in BETA and being rebalanced week to week. This is the perfect time to experiment and see the impact, when it doesn't matter worth shit, instead of releasing the game and waiting a year to see if it 'trends' towards sensor towers or not.
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On April 03 2010 01:59 cyllu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 01:19 dogabutila wrote:On April 02 2010 16:00 Doomgaze wrote:
^
As opposed to "here's 270 minerals of mine. enjoy"? :D Get it in your heads people. Scans cost NOTHING. Mules do not create money, they simply give it to you faster. You will mine out your base anyways, and 1 base on full saturation terran has an advantage over any other race. You will not lose the game because you scan, in fact you might even win because you get *gasp* intel which is oh-so-valuable. Moreso then 270 minerals that you would have gotten anyways. You are in no way LOSING 270 minerals when you scan. I guess you don't lose anything when you pull all your SCVs off mining to defend then either, I mean, you're gonna mine it out anyway. Why even build SCVs, they cost 50 minerals but they don't give you anything that the six starter SCVs aren't gonna give you anyway. Bastards.
Wrong, look at what I quoted. You arn't throwing away minerals to gain information, you are delaying mining of minerals. Whereas suiciding an overlord is paying 100 minerals for info, you never lose any amount of minerals getting said info.
And you build scv's because you get the increased cash flow. Not putting down a mule does not put you behind, it merely puts you on even footing as any other 1 base race because if you are both saturated you are mining at the same rate. Mules put your 1 base income ahead because they can make use of patches that are already being mined from.
On April 03 2010 01:58 Crisium wrote:
It still eliminates your new Macro mechanic for 50 energy while your opponent gets to use theirs. So because it is vital to scan to be able to react to Zerg, you are put at a huge economic disadvantage. 50 energy for the Zerg is 8 larva. 270 minerals is inferior to 8 larva enough as it is, it's even worse when you have to justify scouting knowledge (scan) as equal to 8 larva.
No, you are not put at an economic disadvantage. Mule puts you ahead. Because the worker AI is so much better in sc2, having 30 workers mining is barely better then having 24 mining, certainly not worth the extra scv's built when you could have expanded instead.
The problem is people build orbital commands too early, so they have to stop building scv's. That loss in scv production time so early in the game is what puts you behind. Then it becomes necessary to use mule until you can get a decent amount of scv's. Delaying OC in favor of a decent scv count first means you are not then significantly behind and have the option of using a mule to put your economy ahead, or scan for info.
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EPT
