EPTEdit: This is not my video, I just wanted to share it. Credit goes to KroogCraft.
30 Thors vs 90 Mutas as of Patch 7
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
Edit: This is not my video, I just wanted to share it. Credit goes to KroogCraft. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
Thanks for sharing. | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
In a real game you won't see a terran spamming thors (unless they want to lose) and one or two thors will be eaten up by mutas which don't clump as much in this game and if you only have a group or two it wouldn't be hard to keep them spread out. Try broodlords next :D. | ||
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Tdelamay
Canada548 Posts
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
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Trezeguet
United States2656 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
i wonder how well they do if theycame at all sides | ||
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Nal_rAwr
United States2611 Posts
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fAker
Denmark44 Posts
 they are to big and weird lookin  | ||
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
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dextahr
United States47 Posts
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Tamerlane
Canada424 Posts
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Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:51 fAker wrote: too bad thors still sucks they are to big and weird lookin Thors rape Hydras (1 shot them if they have 1+ attack), rape mutas, do good vs roaches (but need some marauder support), do good vs Ultras.... What more do you want? I use Thors almost every TvZ I play. | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
Oh wow, that was so one-sided. I did not think a 0.5 splash raidus would make that much of a difference. This is going to have a big effect on Mech in TvZ. Now, if only Archons were this effective against Mutas.... =( | ||
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DoomBacon
United States165 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:52 dextahr wrote: Interesting. I'd be more curious to see a more realistic situation, like 1 thor vs 9 mutalisks and then 1 thor vs 9 mutalisks + micro to see how effective thors would be for holding off mutalisks early game. The huge range on the thors kind of skews the results a bit I think. I'm fairly sure that in small numbers of both a thor is still at least cost efficient but I would have to test that. Also keep in mind that thors have a very long build time and muta are mmmuuuuuuch faster than thors and can just run around them and pick off stragglers or run into the SCV line and be back to the base in time to defend. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:51 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: how about a more realistic scenario, like 3 thors vs 12 mutas? ya, this video doesnt tell us anything about a real game, but it was interesting to see. | ||
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Sc1pio
United States823 Posts
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Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Splitting would've made it definitely less one-sided, though it's still clear who the victor is. | ||
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Zexion
Sweden971 Posts
A bad example maybe , but my point still stands. Who confronts units with splash damage like that? I don't think the purpose of this video is to show how "great" Thors are now, though it does show us how they are better against mass air now (obviously). | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:50 Nal_rAwr wrote: you dont know if they're getting closer to balancing the game or going more further away If a single video about a situation that would never ever happen and where the mutas only came from a single direction while stacked on top of eachother is enough to make you think this, then you have no foundation from which to post on any sc2 topic. | ||
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dronebabo
10866 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
should try to medivac/thor like shuttle reaver sometime ;D | ||
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:49 Chen wrote: duh? stacked air units vs an AA attack with splash wtf did you expect? I love you. We should try 30 archons vs 90 mutas next! | ||
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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Tinithor
United States1552 Posts
Anyways its not like the mutas will ever engage the thors optimally. Just harrass, thors are so slow they can't cover 2 bases and they are REALLY expensive and die to lings super easy soo idk how viable it'll be. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:55 FrozenArbiter wrote: Thors rape Hydras (1 shot them if they have 1+ attack), rape mutas, do good vs roaches (but need some marauder support), do good vs Ultras.... What more do you want? I use Thors almost every TvZ I play. QFT. Seriously guys, thors counter hydras muta and ultras, as well as roaches to some degree. What more do you want? | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
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RumZ
United States956 Posts
Is that what we are witnessing ? Oh wait 3 Thors died. Look at that video. If you have 90 mutas are you really going to clump them up like that? But I digress, if you made 90 mutas while scouting thor production like that.. you probably would. | ||
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goswser
United States3519 Posts
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
 Protoss has flying earrings (sentry) that have 1 armor. Can't a thor do a little better? | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:29 bendez wrote: QFT. Seriously guys, thors counter hydras muta and ultras, as well as roaches to some degree. What more do you want? But, but, if its that big, it should win the game single-handedly!!! But seriously, it would appear that terran mech finally got an answer for mass air. Maybe blizzard is trying to make mech the way to go in tvz as opposed to tvp, a reversal of broodwar? In this light the recent buff to banelings makes sense. | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:35 Osmoses wrote: I want a unit that acts less like a fat guy at a marathon. Using it with the rest of my army is like putting it (my army) on a ball an chain, and even though the ball has a bitching attack the fight is usually over before it can navigate its ass within its shitty range and fire even one round. People never complained about slow Terran metal pushes in the original SC and Thors move about as fast as an unsieged tank. It's not a flaw, merely another thing a Terran player needs to consider when pursuing such tech. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:50 Nal_rAwr wrote: you dont know if they're getting closer to balancing the game or going more further away quote of the year award goes to Nal_rAwr! but seriously, I totally agree. | ||
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:58 3FFA wrote: quote of the year award goes to Nal_rAwr! but seriously, I totally agree. I still can't tell if you're being serious. How can you possibly base an opinion based on a such ridiculous clip? | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:50 Nal_rAwr wrote: you dont know if they're getting closer to balancing the game or going more further away Ok, try maxed supply of corsairs vs. maxed supply of mutas in BW next, and see what happens. No one seemed to complain corsairs broke the air game of BW though... | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:56 Tom Phoenix wrote: People never complained about slow Terran metal pushes in the original SC and Thors move about as fast as an unsieged tank. It's not a flaw, merely another thing a Terran player needs to consider when pursuing such tech. I'd be perfectly happy with the speed if it weren't so big and cumbersome. Siege tanks don't hold up everything behind them or require a hallway the size of a parking lot to get to the front. | ||
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Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:49 Chen wrote: duh? stacked air units vs an AA attack with splash wtf did you expect? The point of a demonstration is that it doesn't matter what any one expects. Now you know, for a fact, how badly Thors can counter massed mutalisks, and if any one objects to that fact, a video exists to prove it. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:08 Wintermute wrote: The point of a demonstration is that it doesn't matter what any one expects. Now you know, for a fact, how badly Thors can counter massed mutalisks, and if any one objects to that fact, a video exists to prove it. The video is fun and all. But people complaining about how this proves the game is unbalanced have no idea what they're talking about. Or they're trolling. | ||
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RexFTW
United States172 Posts
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:35 Osmoses wrote: I want a unit that acts less like a fat guy at a marathon. Using it with the rest of my army is like putting it (my army) on a ball an chain, and even though the ball has a bitching attack the fight is usually over before it can navigate its ass within its shitty range and fire even one round. wait thor has a shitty range? what? | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Thors aren't suppose to be massed like mutas, your absolutely right. But they're not meant to be used alone either. Their meant to be a supported by infantry. They supplement MMM brilliantly in so many ways right now. Mutas stack heavily when moving up, and by keeping a thor in the group, mutas running forward to snipe medivacs is downright suicidal. Spread out mutas makes them more vulnerable to marines. It also lets you get a much less marine heavy army thats significantly less vulnerable to banelings because you have a thor backing them up. At least 2 SCV's should be accompaning a thor at all times. Thor+2 missle turrets=unharrasable mineral line by any reasonable amount of mutalisks (12-14). Even if they take it out, by the time they do you can have reinforcements arriving, and the losses they incur would actually be far more damaging (900min+gas lost in mutas.) They aren't the end all be all, they suck versus lings and need heavy support versus roaches and hydras, but they're still pretty powerful atm, and a natural progression from siegetanks going into lategame. | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:45 Louder wrote: Thors still die far too easily with only 1 armor Protoss has flying earrings (sentry) that have 1 armor. Can't a thor do a little better?Of course they can. They're huge and therefore massely repairable. Even with nerfed SCVs, just you go and try to kill 2 thors backed up by a Lot of SCVs. Only thing that beats this is Siege Tanks, and against those you can just drop the thors on top of the tanks, or stun them with thor's ability. Mutas don't stop them either, this video being quite the strong evidence. That was not 30 thors vs 90 mutas, about 10 thors stayed out of the battle completely. midgame mech doesn't even require too many mining SCVs non-stop, since minerals start to accumulate often, and you can always mass mule to make an income comeback. | ||
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Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:00 Mastermind wrote: ya, this video doesnt tell us anything about a real game, but it was interesting to see. It does tell you something. It just doesn't tell you everything. Futhermore, the myriad responses in this thread also tell me something: That the average poster on TL.net does not have a very methodical approach to gaming/balance. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Yea ground range of six. Its main weakness. If Thor had like 7 range it would be tons better. On March 31 2010 10:30 Wintermute wrote: It does tell you something. It just doesn't tell you everything. Futhermore, the myriad responses in this thread also tell me something: That the average poster on TL.net does not have a very methodical approach to gaming/balance. /agree Obviously 30 thors versus 90 mutas is pretty rediculous. But the video is pretty insightful on how the dynamic of Thors versus Mutas stack up. | ||
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
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Karas
United States230 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:33 wesleyq wrote: This test is impossible to tell much considering the fact that thors are slow as hell. Thors in a drop ship are as fast as anything else in a dropship. Just like toss learned to combine reavers and shuttles terran players can learn to combine thor and medivacs to speed it up. Thors aren't going to go chasing down muta, that's not their job. Their job is to put in an area and say "This area is mine now. Muta need not bother." | ||
Disarray
United States1164 Posts
i'd really like to see the same fight pre-patch 7 just to see how much of a difference it made | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
You basically can go 2 thor and mass tank and roll over any zerg army, ala Kawaii did to me today. its pretty bullshit. | ||
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member1987
141 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + end sarcasm | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
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Sc2ggRise
United States607 Posts
oh yeah, splash damage rapes, that's what! | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
thors hard counter hydra and muta? >_> | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
useless video. if you micro your muta its easier to kill thor since thor deal less damage than they did before. you think people will stack muta against thor now ? probably not. this is a buff only if you play against noob, but against pro this is a nerf. thor are even more useless now at pro level. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On March 31 2010 12:23 j4vz wrote: 30 v 90 = 3 v 9 = 1 v 3. useless video. if you micro your muta its easier to kill thor since thor deal less damage than they did before. you think people will stack muta against thor now ? probably not. this is a buff only if you play against noob, but against pro this is a nerf. thor are even more useless now at pro level. I can already tell you don't have the sc2 beta. | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
On March 31 2010 13:03 bendez wrote: I can already tell you don't have the sc2 beta. i have it. but what do u mean ? tell me why you think im wrong ? | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On March 31 2010 13:05 j4vz wrote: i have it. but what do u mean ? tell me why you think im wrong ? Thors have a longer range, so if you move in with mutas to attack, they would naturally stack as Thors begin attacking. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
Like they took a dmg hit for nothing unless they mass alot | ||
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j4vz
Canada976 Posts
On March 31 2010 13:15 bendez wrote: Thors have a longer range, so if you move in with mutas to attack, they would naturally stack as Thors begin attacking. yea it will be good for the 1st hit maybe but after that people will space their muta. and the radius isnt that big. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
-_-' Plus splash damage as many people have probably said can scale hideously well depending on clustered the other units are. You were only fighting like 1/5th of the health of all those mutas so its like uber exaggerated. I rather see 30 Thors vs the equivalent amount of Infestors. | ||
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
in a game with good people, you wont amass 30 thors, or 90 mutas. you wont see mutas running straight into a group of thros and just taking it in the face. etc etc EDIT - also, thors hardcounter to mutas? no... they are far to slow and depend on splash damage. gg. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10667 Posts
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
On March 31 2010 12:23 j4vz wrote: 30 v 90 = 3 v 9 = 1 v 3. useless video. if you micro your muta its easier to kill thor since thor deal less damage than they did before. you think people will stack muta against thor now ? probably not. this is a buff only if you play against noob, but against pro this is a nerf. thor are even more useless now at pro level. Alright, let's do some math. Thor 400HP 1 armor 10 range 32 dmg per volley 3 sec cooldown Mutalisk 120HP 0 armor 3 range 9 dmg per hit 1.5246 sec cooldown To take down a Mutalisk, a Thor needs 4 shots, that's a total of a 9 second delay between the shots; so 9 seconds to kill a Mutalisk. In 9 seconds, a Mutalisk will shoot 5.9, can't really round up because it wouldn't make sense, but I will anyways, just for you. So one Mutalisk gets 6 shots. 3 Mutalisks would land 18. 6*3*8 = 144dmg. 8 and not 9 because Thor has one armor (assuming equal upgrades). So by the time the Thor has killed one Muta, he still has 256HP left. Now in the next 9 seconds given to the Thor to kill the second Muta, they will have inflicted 6*2*8 = 96dmg. By the time the Thor has killed two Mutas, he'll have 160HP left. The Thor will have 112 HP left after killing all three. I didn't take regen into consideration, but frankly, it wouldn't make a difference. I also didn't even mention the range, which implies that Mutas will be taking a shot before getting into range, and that first shot might actually spread AoE because of the units clumping together. Also, I failed to take into account the shooting animation time, I don't think it would tip this scenario in the mutas' favor, but frankly I can't be bothered to find out. 1 thor is also less expensive than 3 mutas. What have we found out today? Mindless speculation and theorycraft is useless. Go try out these pointless scenarios in game if you're actually going to spit nonsense. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 31 2010 14:07 TelecOm1 wrote: wow lol that was crazy damage change =p No it was bad unless you do things likes this lol the splash is to small in any normal game vs normal amounts of mutas. Be cool if they stacks like the did in sc1 lol | ||
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RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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h0munkulus
Austria1481 Posts
Thor Movement Speed: 1.875 Muta Movement Speed: 3.75 Mutas are twice the Speed of Thors. For Reference: Standard Ground Speed: 2.25 Standard Air Speed: 2.75 | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
Having said that it is still necessary to adjust the stats of the units to make them perform more like they are supposed to in Blizzards eyes. Adding splash damage to Thors seems like a good idea, because it is a HUGE unit. NOT building a ton of Mutas when you know your opponent has a lot of Thors is like not building more Vikings when the Zerg has Hydras. Just deal with it, adjust your strategy and stop whining ... and most important: scout your enemy! | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
That was totally badass though. I mean, it's like a BW archon. Only it's a fucking huge robot. With missiles. Explodey missiles. mmmmmmmm | ||
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
On March 31 2010 14:49 Kyuukyuu wrote: And a big "-__________-" goes out to all the "this is dumb because it'll never happen in a real game" people. o RLY. That was totally badass though. I mean, it's like a BW archon. Only it's a fucking huge robot. With missiles. Explodey missiles. mmmmmmmm No, what is dumb is people taking this vid as supporting evidence that the units are imbalanced. | ||
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Railz
United States1449 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
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SWPIGWANG
Canada482 Posts
Thor > Stacked muta Buffed turrets > harass muta Slow thor speed -> slloooowwww push~ | ||
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
Siege Tanks hardcounter Banelings, Zerglings, Hydras, Infestors, Marines hardcounter Zerglings, Mutas, Infestors, Thors hardcounter Hydras, Mutas, Ultralisks...- all in an extremely massive way that small numbers own large numbers... There are not many units remaining for a zerg: - Teching straight for Brood Lords is probably no option as you get rolled over before you reach it... - Mass (now triple nerfed) Roach + Tech works, I suppose, which is kinda hard, as most Terrans open with Marauders and can then switch kinda easily to the unitmix above, while the zerg at least needs burrow, movement speed, burrowed movement for a unit he does not plan to play with at first... It makes the matchup really tech heavy and dangerous for the zerg and decreases zerg unit diversity even more... | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On March 31 2010 17:23 Artrey wrote: So what does a Zerg do against a Siege tank + Thor + Marine Mix now? Siege Tanks hardcounter Banelings, Zerglings, Hydras, Infestors, Marines hardcounter Zerglings, Mutas, Infestors, Thors hardcounter Hydras, Mutas, Ultralisks...- all in an extremely massive way that small numbers own large numbers... There are not many units remaining for a zerg: - Teching straight for Brood Lords is probably no option as you get rolled over before you reach it... - Mass (now triple nerfed) Roach + Tech works, I suppose, which is kinda hard, as most Terrans open with Marauders and can then switch kinda easily to the unitmix above, while the zerg at least needs burrow, movement speed, burrowed movement for a unit he does not plan to play with at first... It makes the matchup really tech heavy and dangerous for the zerg and decreases zerg unit diversity even more... All we can do is wait and see, but yea, things aren't looking good for zerg at the moment. | ||
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Myhusel
8 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:55 FrozenArbiter wrote: Thors rape Hydras (1 shot them if they have 1+ attack), rape mutas, do good vs roaches (but need some marauder support), do good vs Ultras.... What more do you want? I use Thors almost every TvZ I play. Thanks to watching your play it's really opened my eyes on the Thor. I really can't wait to start getting some use out of them, I just need to find the right build for me to fit them in with my play. | ||
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Irrelevant
United States2364 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:55 FrozenArbiter wrote: Thors rape Hydras (1 shot them if they have 1+ attack), rape mutas, do good vs roaches (but need some marauder support), do good vs Ultras.... What more do you want? I use Thors almost every TvZ I play. Some reps of this would be nice to see ^ ^ Played around with them alittle, mostly just drop harass to drop down key structures then fly away or very late game as a little extra AA protection for my BCs on top of vikings | ||
Kiante
Australia7069 Posts
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Ruthless
United States492 Posts
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:51 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: how about a more realistic scenario, like 3 thors vs 12 mutas? people won't just go PURE thor vs mutalisks, they will most likely mix in marines aswell. I'd easily say Thors with mnm backup will rape mutalisks, or just 1-2 Thors at each mining base backed up by turrents will hold of mutas trying to harass (i believe SCVs can repair the thors so that will make them even more insane). | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On March 31 2010 08:51 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: how about a more realistic scenario, like 3 thors vs 12 mutas? Or how about a MORE realistic scenario? 3 thors chugging along like fat kids while mutas rape your economy. Was muta ever supposed to be the counter to thor? How did Z beat mech in sc1? Clearly they made the higher mobility army for the sole purpose of fighting the terran head on. lol. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On March 31 2010 17:23 Artrey wrote: So what does a Zerg do against a Siege tank + Thor + Marine Mix now? Siege Tanks hardcounter Banelings, Zerglings, Hydras, Infestors, Marines hardcounter Zerglings, Mutas, Infestors, Thors hardcounter Hydras, Mutas, Ultralisks...- all in an extremely massive way that small numbers own large numbers... There are not many units remaining for a zerg: - Teching straight for Brood Lords is probably no option as you get rolled over before you reach it... - Mass (now triple nerfed) Roach + Tech works, I suppose, which is kinda hard, as most Terrans open with Marauders and can then switch kinda easily to the unitmix above, while the zerg at least needs burrow, movement speed, burrowed movement for a unit he does not plan to play with at first... It makes the matchup really tech heavy and dangerous for the zerg and decreases zerg unit diversity even more... lol just lay down a infestor nest and upgrades as you play, its a small investment. Blizzard obviously doesn't want you to stay in tier2 for the entire game. Can't win everything with tier 2 mutas and bling. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:43 sLiniss wrote: Marines with Medivacs are plenty good against mutas.... I don't get why thors needed to be buffed so much. Because marines were nerfed in Patch 6. With the +5 sec to produce a marine, and the increased reactor time build, you could never get enough marines to stop mass muas. Are you some type of Zerg player that expects Blizzard to give you a "win" button? | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 31 2010 15:00 Jugan wrote: You can't definitively say that "Thors are the hard counter to mutalisks" based on that video. Is leaving a thor in your base to protect your mineral line enough to take out mutas? How many mutas does it take to > 1 thor? They're obviously better against mutas now, but let's not go overboard. Ummm no they are not .... lost to much dmg for a very small splash dmg | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 31 2010 15:03 SWPIGWANG wrote: Marines > Scattered muta Thor > Stacked muta Buffed turrets > harass muta Slow thor speed -> slloooowwww push~ Marines can't catch the mutas to put the hurt on them Thors can't catch the mutas to put the hurt on them even if they do get close they get 1-2 shots off then they don't see the mutas for like 1 min cause they are on other sides of base or at expos lol Turrets can't move cost alot for short range muta packs focus them down and laugh without losssing 1 muta | ||
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CrimsonPhoenix
Mexico16 Posts
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
Zerg only has a few mutas to harass = you can easily defend that with towers and a hand full of marines. If you run behind mutas, of course you can not catch them. But it is so easy to force the zerg into a battle - in which he does not have many choices anymore. On April 01 2010 01:55 Half wrote:lol just lay down a infestor nest and upgrades as you play, its a small investment. Blizzard obviously doesn't want you to stay in tier2 for the entire game. Can't win everything with tier 2 mutas and bling. Sure, "small investment". We are talking about mid game, not late game. 800 gas and 5 minutes of straight teching is no small investment. We just lost an option to fight siege tanks. If there is a matchup in which you are basically forced to only 2 unit types which are both intensively upgrade heavy, that has nothing to do with diversity anymore. I am surely not complaining about a lacking "iwin button", but about the lack of OPTIONS. If 3 unit types hardcounter 7 out of 9 of the opponent in a way that small armies win over big armies, then this is broken imho. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Still I guess the changes on the Thor were nice and it's a viable option against Mutas. Could be interesting to see some extremely slow pushes with Tanks, Thors and a bunch of Hellions against Z. ^^' | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 01 2010 02:57 Fayth wrote: at least we now have a counter to mutas, before that playing vs a zerg who went mutas + banelings was insanely hard you people don't read do you .... | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
? ive used the thor some games now and man, it still sucks so hard :/ | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On April 01 2010 02:59 MorroW wrote: ? ive used the thor some games now and man, it still sucks so hard :/ Dude you got to build 30. Comeon now. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On April 01 2010 02:59 MorroW wrote: ? ive used the thor some games now and man, it still sucks so hard :/ Well, I guess Marines+Turrets should be enough anyways. It was more like Protoss had problems against Mutas afaik, though I've never had any problems dealing with Mutas in about 200 games as Terran and 200 as Protoss - could've been because the opponents were bad but if you use static defense (which has been buffed just this patch), use a well-rounded Build and scout well, Mutas should be no Problem. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 01 2010 02:40 Artrey wrote: Zerg has a critical mass of mutas = you just attack and he HAS TO come to you or he loses the game. If not, he outmacrod you by far and you deserve to lose. Zerg only has a few mutas to harass = you can easily defend that with towers and a hand full of marines. If you run behind mutas, of course you can not catch them. But it is so easy to force the zerg into a battle - in which he does not have many choices anymore. Sure, "small investment". We are talking about mid game, not late game. 800 gas and 5 minutes of straight teching is no small investment. We just lost an option to fight siege tanks. If there is a matchup in which you are basically forced to only 2 unit types which are both intensively upgrade heavy, that has nothing to do with diversity anymore. I am surely not complaining about a lacking "iwin button", but about the lack of OPTIONS. If 3 unit types hardcounter 7 out of 9 of the opponent in a way that small armies win over big armies, then this is broken imho. 5 minutes? 800 gas? wat? A thor/medivac/MM/tank army isn't going to show until extremely late, if you've applied at least a little bit of pressure. At least until 20-25 minutes. Once you secure early game dominance with lings/blings/mutas, just lay down a infestors nest and tech. 90% of zerg don't ever go into T3, I'm sure blizzard wants to remedy that. And how the hell are you getting 800 gas? Infestor nest+Hive+Greater spire=400 gas. I didn't ask you to rush broodlords lols. Your going to be in t2 anyway for most of the game. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 01 2010 02:59 MorroW wrote: ? ive used the thor some games now and man, it still sucks so hard :/ ya it does still sucks its even worse then it was the splash is sooo small it like never hits 2 targets lol ( in # number of mutas) The you don't read was for the guy saying that he was glade Terran hade a counter to mutas NOW. like Thors got better at it or somthing | ||
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gedassan
Lithuania83 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:52 Karas wrote: Thors in a drop ship are as fast as anything else in a dropship. Just like toss learned to combine reavers and shuttles terran players can learn to combine thor and medivacs to speed it up. Thors aren't going to go chasing down muta, that's not their job. Their job is to put in an area and say "This area is mine now. Muta need not bother." Just to reinforce this and quote Arnie: "Well, I've got news for you. You are mine now! You belong to me!” | ||
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Slurgi
United States118 Posts
But yea, thors are an interesting unit to get TvZ, and I've been wanting to build them more often. Since lategame I like to get the armory anyway (to move past +1/+1 bio), it makes sense to throw down a few thors if my opponent has mutalisks. Also, FrozenArbiter has a really good point that +1 thors one-shot hydralisks. I never knew that! | ||
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DrivE
United States2554 Posts
thors: new gols? | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Olorin.SVK
Slovakia136 Posts
What is very important in my opinion is critical mass. Units with splash dmg tend to have that "magical" number. Maybe by the time someone has enough Thors, mutas can kill all his SCVs or pick other units, its not all about dealing and taking damage. But I must admit it seems kinda off balance in the video. | ||
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
- 10 Mutas vs 1 Thor - 10 Mutas vs 1 Thor in the mineral line and repairing SCVs - 16 Muta vs 2 Thor something along this lines... | ||
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MasterFischer
Denmark836 Posts
I mean who builds 30 Thors in a fight anyway... 90 mutas is alot more realistic.... try like 20 or 15 thors against 90 mutas.. is probaly more realistic. | ||
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MadLag
Poland82 Posts
thor even tho have higher aa range keeps moving instead of attacking mutas ;/ - he loses something like 100 or more hp before he even start to shoot ; / (if u are lucky and he dont try to walk some more) thor kills 3 mutas and dies along with scvs. so overal u won 100 gas :D. making turrets instead of thor seems way better method to counter mutas and the zerg i played was pretty supid since he just pressed a on thor instead of just avoid thor and killing all around him and attacking it while it attempts to move. | ||
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Zerum
Sweden348 Posts
and BTW masterfischer how do you find 90 mutas realistic thats 9k gas and 180 food the gas alone would be enough for 45 ultras and how do you think a zerg is suposed to spend all thoes minerals? but on the other hand with an unit composition of 20 drones and 90 mutas you kinda need somthing like 9 drones on gas and 11 on minerals to ever get close to it ^^ | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 03 2010 01:56 HTX wrote: Can someone test something realistic? - 10 Mutas vs 1 Thor - 10 Mutas vs 1 Thor in the mineral line and repairing SCVs - 16 Muta vs 2 Thor something along this lines... Mutas win ever time easy unless you repair your thors alot and most times the mutas will not attack the thors just hars the buildings and take the 1 or 2 hits they toss at them. Maybe lose one ever 2nd pass. Oh and old thor did better VS all those #'s VS the new thor with the splash | ||
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