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United States33203 Posts
The Korean Starcraft community YGosu posted this interview with Garimto on March 10th. This is their third installment in their series of interviews with top Korean Starcraft II players. Garimto is a former Brood War progamer, who won two Starleagues in the early 2000's. Afterwards, he worked as a commentator for Ongamenet, and worked as a game developer as well.
Source: YGosu
Ygosu: Hello, it’s Ygosu. You’re so famous you probably won’t need it but…. A brief introduction please?
Garimto: Hi, I’m Kim Dong Su, thirty years of age. I won the Starleague twice when I was a progamer ten years ago. I played for about 5~6 years. A lot of people don’t know this, but I was a game developer for about 4 years as well. And now I’m obsessed with Starcraft II.
Ygosu: Wow, what a resume. People wonder what you’re up to these days, so could you tell us briefly?
Garimto: I’m getting a lot of rest and relaxation while I recharge.
Ygosu: So you got into Starcraft II during that time.
Garimto: Yeah. You could say I’m resting because of Starcraft II.
Ygosu: You’ve played quite a few games, I guess Starcraft II is pretty fun?
Garimto: Of course. I tend to enjoy the games I play. I don’t think Starcraft II is particularly more entertaining, it’s just the game I’m into at the moment.
Ygosu: So it’s possible that you’ll return as a SC II progamer as a lot of people are hoping?
Garimto: Don’t you think it would be a bit hard for me?
Ygosu: Do you mean because of your age?
Garimto: Of course I’m gonna be able to maintain a good win-rate before build orders and basic matchup paradigms become established. Starcraft II isn’t a game where the guy with faster hands wins just yet, right now the person who thinks faster wins. But eventually a time will come when the people with faster hands win, just like SC 1, and I can see even during the closed beta that the game is advancing so rapidly on a daily basis. People are just absorbing the content so quickly. If it goes on at this pace, even if I do become a pro, I won’t be able to stay at the top for very long.
Ygosu: But a lot of the old progamers are aiming for exactly that period early on, before builds or basic strategies are established. You don’t even want to try to be a pro in the early going?
Garimto: Well, I think of myself as a guy who’s a better player than a developer, and has more understanding than a gamer. That’s why I’m playing random.
I think my mind will change depending on the timing, but if there’s a tournament I’ll probably compete in it. I want to play against good players, find out exactly how good I am, and if I’m any good I want to show off my skill.
But if you’re asking me if I want to become a progamer again, I can only say ‘I’m not sure about that…’ As someone who’s experienced that lifestyle, I know how harsh and difficult that line of work is. I had aimed to be a progamer in my thirties before, and when I tried I came to the conclusion that it just doesn’t work. So no, I don’t have any lingering desire to be a progamer. But…
Ygosu: But…?
Garimto: In the very beginning, you didn’t become a progamer with the objective of becoming a progamer. You were just a someone who liked a game, and through playing tournaments here and there ended up becoming a pro.
Ygosu: Right, it was that way in the beginning.
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable.
Ygosu: A good answer. Next question, do you think the old progamers will be able come back spectacularly in Starcraft II?
Garimto: Very hard for that to happen.
Ygosu: Why do you think so?
Garimto: Like I said before, people are absorbing this new content extremely quickly. Let’s say Flash and Jaedong are playing each other in SC1. Right now it’s become a game where they’ll be given a situation where you can definitely say “this is the correct answer in this situation.” And then the winner will be whoever reaches that answer in quickest way, making the least mistakes.
Ygosu: Of course, Starcraft 1 is the product of 12 years of history.
Garimto: Right now, there’s a lot of trial and error in Starcraft II, and only the developers really know what’s good and what’s bad, how to use the counters properly, etc. The problem is that the speed at which people go through new strategies is so fast. It’s that fast in the closed beta, so who knows what it will be like when the game goes live?
From that perspective, I think that’s why there are all these new features in Battle.net 2.0 like the achievements or the marketplace which accentuate things outside the core gameplay itself. It’s like they’re making a Starcraft II amusement park, where they give you the tools to make any kind of experience you can imagine.
The players can make any kind of ‘ride’ they want, whether it’s DOTA or Counterstrike. That’s what I feel from Starcraft II.
Ygosu: So if we look at just the core gameplay, you’re saying that the vast amounts of experience RTS gamers have at digesting new strategies makes it so that the old progamers won’t be able to exploit the early phase like in Starcraft 1 or Warcraft III.
Garimto: I’d love it if it wasn’t so, but sadly that’s what I see. I hope I’m wrong.
Ygosu: I’ve felt this as I’ve played, and perhaps you’ve felt it to as a first generation progamer, but the rate at which the level of play is becoming refined is so much faster than that of Starcraft 1. The ability of the players to adapt is just amazing.
Garimto: When you play, you can feel the difference day by day. I’ve heard that in the pro-league above the platinum league, all the replays will be made public. And even now, you can see the build orders for the last five games of any of the top rankers. I think the developers want us to absorb this content quickly. Anyway, I think it’s a relief that they’ve cut down on the need for repetitive and excessively precise controls.
Ygosu: Yeah, that’s such a great thing. If it required the kind of manual dexterity as SC1, there would be an even bigger gap. On a different note, what do you think is the biggest obstacle for Starcraft II in becoming an E-sport?
Garimto: Complexity. Internally or externally, its Achilles heel is gonna be complexity. Internally, Starcraft II is overly complex. Whenever there’s a big battle, you have to use three or four important abilities at the same time. Even for someone who plays as much as me, it can be overwhelming. Can you imagine what a wall it’s going to be for casual players?
Ygosu: There really are so many skills you have to use. And they’re absolutely required to win.
Garimto: Absolutely required, and fundamental to the game. There are abilities that need to be researched to use like SC1, but a lot of units come with a special ability off the bat. I wonder “why did they have to make this game so complex?” at times.
Externally, this thing we call “E-sports” is too complex as well. The proverb goes, ‘a ship with too many captains ends up in the mountains’ (essentially the same as too many cooks spoil the broth). So then, who are the main figures here? Is it KeSPA? Blizzard? It’s already becoming ambiguous. And then we have IEG, and the television companies.
Before KeSPA existed, the TV companies held the tournaments. Do you think KeSPA could survive if OnGameNet and MBCGame disappeared? Conversely, if KeSPA disappeared, would there be trouble holding the Starleagues? This web of complicated intertwined relationships is what we call “E-sports” today. This kind of complexity is going to make it difficult for Starcraft II to have a progaming market.
Ygosu: If that’s so, do you think KeSPA and Blizzard have reached a point where it’s inevitable that they’re going to have to play hardball with each other for power? In that case, it would mean we’d have to go through some birthing pains in order Starcraft II to become the kind of E-sport we’re used to. Who do you think will end up the victor in that power struggle, KeSPA or Blizzard?
Garimto: There’s really no way Blizzard can lose their leadership position. KeSPA has to do everything in its power to try and take a leading role. Blizzard could lend them that position though, like SC1.
Ygosu: I feel the same way. Every byproduct of Starcraft II does belong to Blizzard, after all.
Garimto: There’s already an internal pro-league and marketplace in Battle.net. All they need to connect their pro-league to the fans is a broadcast medium. From Blizzard’s standpoint, KeSPA’s claim that “We made Korean E-sports, so E-Sports is ours” isn’t even worth replying to.
Ygosu: So you think that in the end, KeSPA will have to bow to Blizzard’s will?
Garimto: Personally, I don’t think that an association will exist at all for Starcraft II. Battle.net already fulfils all the functions of the association. Who knows, you might be able to watch the proleague finals by connecting to battle.net, with all of the broadcasting occurring directly through battle.net.
Ygosu: Interesting opinion. After all that serious talk, let’s talk about the game itself. What do you think about the notion that Protoss is overpowered?
Garimto: The period where Protoss was strong is gone with the patch. If they tweak Terran’s mid-game balance a little bit, it will really be the wild wild west.
Ygosu: What was the most critical part of the patch?
Garimto: I think the mothership nerf was the biggest thing. The mothership was imbalanced if you could just manage to get one out. Once they got rid of that imbalance, the path opened up for everyone.
Ygosu: Wormhole transit was really powerful, but it seemed like such a severe nerf.
Garimto: I think it was an error to have the concept of a mothership in an RTS in the first place, so any nerf was good in my opinion. Something you can only make one of come late game, that kind of thing doesn’t fit RTS games. It’s really hard to balance too. Warcraft III is differenct because it’s a hybrid RTS, but to introduce such a concept in a traditional RTS was a bad idea.
Ygosu: I guess it really was like a hero of sorts. So what’s in the most dire need of patching right now?
Garimto:
1: Make the unit production time of gateways and warpgates equal.
2: Increase the damage of siege tanks.
3: Increase the damage of hellions.
I’d be fine if they could just make TvP a matchup where I feel like I can win if I’m better.
Ygosu: So you think the only way to win TvP is to go for an early attack?
Garimto: No, when I draw TvP I tend to win in the mid-late game. I think early rushes get stopped around 90% of the time now, because of the colossus. And there are some timing issues with going for banshees. You’re sort of forced into playing a longer game. It’s just that there’s a timing midway through the game that’s really hard on terran.
Ygosu: Why’s that? Because it’s hard to match the protoss expansions?
Garimto: There’s that, and it’s difficult to defend at times because tanks and hellions are weaker than you would expect.
Ygosu: So you’re saying there’s no real backbone for the terran army?
Garimto: Yes.
YGosu: What do you think of archons then? People consider it to be in the running for most useless unit.
Garimto: That’s fine.
YGosu: It’s fine?
Garimto: You just morph them after you’re out of mana and use them as zealots with an air attack, protoss is already strong enough anyway.
YGosu: So you’re saying protoss is still strong, even with crappy archons?
Garimto: Warpgates gave protoss a unique advantage that makes them incomparable to the other races. They improved the scout into the void ray, corsair into the phoenix, and reaver into the colossus. And if that wasn’t enough, they gave Protoss the powerful immortal. And then they gave dragoons a teleport.
YGosu: Warpgates. Man, there’s so much talk about them. It gives protoss such a fantastic advantage in map control, attacking or defending, and tactical flexibility.
Garimto: And they also ruined PvP because they can make units faster than regular gateways. I don’t understand how they actually make units faster. I think they could fix it just by making them produce at the same speed.
YGosu: On the other hand, it seems like a lot of protoss players are struggling with PvZ.
YGosu: Eh, it seemed really hard for any Zerg to stop a 3 gate 1 robotics rush. It’s hard for me to stop it as Zerg as well. It’s still so hard to stop even after the gateway nerf. There need to be some Zergs that can stop that build for Protoss to start doing something else for a change. Still, I think the matchup is alright. Whoever thinks more, faster has the advantage.
YGosu: I think so, too. I think it’s become a skillful matchup where Zerg has a slight advantage if he can stop the all-in rush.
Garimto: Yeah, it’s a matchup where the better player wins. If they would just balance TvP, then the beta would really be awesome.
YGosu: It sort of reminds you of the early days of Starcraft 1.
Garimto: I thought so as well. Terran actually has a lot of really strong units. Because we’re under the shadow of Starcraft 1, we tend to make armies that are focused on just a few units.
But Terran units have so many unique units with interesting abilities. Even a single ghost or thor is a huge presense on the battlefield. Or if you have four or more reapers, you can destroy any kind of building in 10 seconds or less. In the late game, there’s really nothing that counters the Raven’s seeker missiles. Battlecruisers have impressive firepower and defense. The medivac can heal and transport at the same time, so it’s ideal for surprise drops.
YGosu: I see what you’re getting at. So you’re saying there’s a problem with the players? Because they’re not used to unit combinations that have more than three or four units?
Garimto: I’ll just say, make tanks and hellions stronger! Hehehe.
YGosu: So you mean Terran would be fine if hellions and tanks were stronger?
Garimto: Yes. Fix that, and I think you solve all the problems. Terran would be very strong then.
YGosu: As a game developer, and not progamer, what don’t you like about the game?
Garimto: Nothing. I know how much work they put into the game. I’m looking forward to Battle.net 2.0 more than the game anyway.
YGosu: What are you looking forward to in particular? Some kind of unified service on the scale of Steam or the Apple app store?
Garimto: Right.
YGosu: Do you have any inclination to return to the progaming world in any way whatsoever? Even if it’s not as a player.
Garimto: If I have a chance, I probably will.
YGosu: We don’t know what you’ll decide to do after you’re done recharging, but I hope you know a lot of us love you and want to see you come back on the big stage.
Garimto: Thank you very much.
YGosu: On a final note, some parting words for our readers please.
Garimto: Thanks for reading this long interview. I’ll work hard so you can see me at my best in the future. Summer is coming, so take care of your health! And have a nice day.
YGosu: Thanks for giving us this interview!
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whoever has the fastest hands wins? lol.
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Thanks a lot for translating!
Not sure I agree with all of his points, but it was definitely an interesting read.
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Gotta love this man.. Awesome interview, gave me a lotta insight on KeSPA! Thanks for translation aswell
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On March 10 2010 23:30 WaveMotion wrote:
whoever has the fastest hands wins? lol.
I agree to this to an extent, if you play in like Comp, D-. D, D+, C-, C range you can win 100% just because you out multitask the guy. Only when your opponent can multitask as good as you can you really employ strategy, thats not to say the 60 apm dt rusher won't beat the 300 apm player if he doesn't get detection, just that all things considered it hurts more to be slower then it does to be faster.
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Canada5565 Posts
The part about KeSPA / Blizzard was especially interesting to read
Waxangel you've been posting all kinds of articles lately, thank you for this
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Awesome interview. I like that Garimto pulls no punches about the KeSPA situation.
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great stuff.
i agree on the nerf part, especially warpgates
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"From Blizzard’s standpoint, KeSPA’s claim that “We made Korean E-sports, so E-Sports is ours” isn’t even worth replying to."
Truth.
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Great read, thanks a lot, Wax. I really hope they buff Hellions and Siege Tanks. I'm just disappointed whenever I see them in a game.
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Interesting stuff about Korea and progaming, but sorry garimto, corsair > phoenix.
I'm curious, how prevalent is bio+ghost TvP in the Korean beta right now? It seems very silly for him to wish for Hellion/Tank to be like Vulture/Tank was in SC TvP, especially when he mentions that people are too deep in the shadow of SC and using only a few types of units together.
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amazing stuff, tons of great insight into a whole sorts of in-game and peripheral issues
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nice stuff, he's really a clever guy.
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garimto doesn't seem to have realized how good the mmm+ghost/viking combo is against P ^^
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On March 11 2010 00:18 Senx wrote:
garimto doesn't seem to have realized how good the mmm+ghost/viking combo is against P ^^
Maybe not, but maybe at higher levels Protoss own them? Or maybe he just wants more different ´playstyles
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 11 2010 00:08 QibingZero wrote:
Interesting stuff about Korea and progaming, but sorry garimto, corsair > phoenix.
I'm curious, how prevalent is bio+ghost TvP in the Korean beta right now? It seems very silly for him to wish for Hellion/Tank to be like Vulture/Tank was in SC TvP, especially when he mentions that people are too deep in the shadow of SC and using only a few types of units together.
Hellion/Tank is surprisingly popular on asia from the reps that I've seen. Dno why that is though, Immortals seem to rape that combination something terrible.
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On March 11 2010 00:18 Senx wrote:
garimto doesn't seem to have realized how good the mmm+ghost/viking combo is against P ^^
I tend to agree. I don't think terran are weak against P at all. Said combo is incredibly strong. Marines with upgrades are a monster.
I think its common knowledge that warpgates need a change though.
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Stronger tanks and hellions will still require ghost backup vs immortals ^^
i wouldnt complain about better mech though
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8748 Posts
Why didn't Garimto have to pick the next interviewee at the end? I thought ygosu always did that.
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On March 11 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 00:08 QibingZero wrote:
Interesting stuff about Korea and progaming, but sorry garimto, corsair > phoenix.
I'm curious, how prevalent is bio+ghost TvP in the Korean beta right now? It seems very silly for him to wish for Hellion/Tank to be like Vulture/Tank was in SC TvP, especially when he mentions that people are too deep in the shadow of SC and using only a few types of units together. Hellion/Tank is surprisingly popular on asia from the reps that I've seen. Dno why that is though, Immortals seem to rape that combination something terrible.
if you mix in emp its quite strong on maps that suit it. it takes collosus off the table without having to invest in a bunch of vikings and gives you a far less fragile army than bio tvp. hellions are also quite good for econ raids atm, since people dont expect it yet.
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Sweet interview. Someday I hope to see Garimoto and Boxxer as coaches with their own teams squaring off against each other. Random wishful thinking I know, but still....mmm goodness!
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I do think he's right in that those invested into SC1 will have a tough time becoming pros at SC2. Also I totally forgot about KeSPA vs the broadcast corps until this interview - that's a rift Blizzard might be able to exploit. Blizzard needs the broadcasters more than the team structure.
Slightly off-topic, but did Garimto ever go to the army? I don't recall him ever doing so - how did he avoid it?
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so he really says P is the strongest race?
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I also never understood why warpgates have just a generic cooldown... Every time you use it, it should have a cooldown corresponding with the unit it just made.
Anyway, good interview!
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On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: Complexity. Internally or externally, its Achilles heel is gonna be complexity. Internally, Starcraft II is overly complex. Whenever there’s a big battle, you have to use three or four important abilities at the same time. Even for someone who plays as much as me, it can be overwhelming.
In the light of all the "there is no micro" complaints, I found this fascinating. Is he (having been out of the "scene" for so long) just lacking in speed compared to the folks posting/complaining via interviews, is the asian scene simply better at spellcasting, or what?
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Gurimto so smurt.
=). Thanks Wax
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Garimto is a genius. Thanks for the interview!
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On March 11 2010 01:26 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: Complexity. Internally or externally, its Achilles heel is gonna be complexity. Internally, Starcraft II is overly complex. Whenever there’s a big battle, you have to use three or four important abilities at the same time. Even for someone who plays as much as me, it can be overwhelming. In the light of all the "there is no micro" complaints, I found this fascinating. Is he (having been out of the "scene" for so long) just lacking in speed compared to the folks posting/complaining via interviews, is the asian scene simply better at spellcasting, or what?
when people talk about the lack of micro they arent talking about spellcasters, but the auto micro features like surround and worker targetting, the lack of high ground advantage and the lessened value of chokes and ramps cuz of pathing and collision sizes. the latency also makes basic unit control less clean and effective.
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Probably one of the best ygosu interviews I've read -- great translation as always. Garimto is a smart guy and I hope he sticks around the eSports community. His wisdom exceeds most.
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Thanks for the translation.
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I think I found a typo in one of the questions, YGosu replies to his own question when I think its supposed to be Garimto?
YGosu: On the other hand, it seems like a lot of protoss players are struggling with PvZ.
YGosu: Eh, it seemed really hard for any Zerg to stop a 3 gate 1 robotics rush. It’s hard for me to stop it as Zerg as well. It’s still so hard to stop even after the gateway nerf. There need to be some Zergs that can stop that build for Protoss to start doing something else for a change. Still, I think the matchup is alright. Whoever thinks more, faster has the advantage.
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awesome interview, lots of insight
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On March 11 2010 01:10 SoleSteeler wrote:
I also never understood why warpgates have just a generic cooldown... Every time you use it, it should have a cooldown corresponding with the unit it just made.
It does, go test it.
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On March 11 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 00:08 QibingZero wrote:
Interesting stuff about Korea and progaming, but sorry garimto, corsair > phoenix.
I'm curious, how prevalent is bio+ghost TvP in the Korean beta right now? It seems very silly for him to wish for Hellion/Tank to be like Vulture/Tank was in SC TvP, especially when he mentions that people are too deep in the shadow of SC and using only a few types of units together. Hellion/Tank is surprisingly popular on asia from the reps that I've seen. Dno why that is though, Immortals seem to rape that combination something terrible.
One thing that I noticed from a replay I watched this morning, is that Hellions can burn through an immortal's shield very quickly. Once the Immortal has no shield, the tank can finish them in two or three hits. So as long as your tanks are protected by enough hellions, Immortals shouldn't be a problem.
However, Hellions take a very long time to kill the health part of the immortal.
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Pretty nice interview there, thanks for the translation!
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Garimto is so beastly!!!!!!!!! LOL at KESPA!
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i agree that warp gates should have the same time as normal gates, just use them for proxying people, this faster spawn time + warping to any pylon on the map is stupid imo
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yes make hellions and tanks stronger!!
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On March 10 2010 23:30 WaveMotion wrote:
whoever has the fastest hands wins? lol.
Yeah, and the one that loses have to eat the cracker.
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On March 11 2010 00:24 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 00:18 Senx wrote:
garimto doesn't seem to have realized how good the mmm+ghost/viking combo is against P ^^ I tend to agree. I don't think terran are weak against P at all. Said combo is incredibly strong. Marines with upgrades are a monster. I think its common knowledge that warpgates need a change though.
I agree that if Terran can get to mid-late game against Protoss its pretty well balanced. Where Terran has trouble is in the early game timing window. If you can survive that you are usually in decent shape heading into mid-game. It's not an easy task against someone good, though.
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On March 10 2010 23:30 WaveMotion wrote:
whoever has the fastest hands wins? lol.
yeah, and this is why casy has an awesome tvp and heaven is the most successful player ever
oh wait
><
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Yeah I find it interesting that he thinks tvp is worse off than tvz.
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On March 11 2010 01:44 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 01:26 Southlight wrote:On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: Complexity. Internally or externally, its Achilles heel is gonna be complexity. Internally, Starcraft II is overly complex. Whenever there’s a big battle, you have to use three or four important abilities at the same time. Even for someone who plays as much as me, it can be overwhelming. In the light of all the "there is no micro" complaints, I found this fascinating. Is he (having been out of the "scene" for so long) just lacking in speed compared to the folks posting/complaining via interviews, is the asian scene simply better at spellcasting, or what? when people talk about the lack of micro they arent talking about spellcasters, but the auto micro features like surround and worker targetting, the lack of high ground advantage and the lessened value of chokes and ramps cuz of pathing and collision sizes. the latency also makes basic unit control less clean and effective.
I understand that, but I see a big disparity between people like, who was it... Louder? complaining about not being able to envision "becoming much better" due to a "lack of things to do," and Garimto complaining about there being "too many things to do." And I mean that in terms of micro, not like Nazgul, who said there were always things to do macro-wise, whilst not really mentioning much in terms of micro required/involved during battles.
Obviously Garimto focused on the spellcasters, and Plexa's post a couple weeks ago about the lack of ANYthing to do during battle was probably before people began using spellcasters more often. And I'm going in a circle trying to explain, but, there was, and still is (it seems), a significant amount of people on TL who seem to imply that SC2 battle is largely auto-attack into each other (and some micro to smooth out auto-unclumping), and that seems to clash with Garimto's "omg battle start massive spellcast gogo" thing. I'm wondering if Garimto is indirectly implying that the complainers simply aren't using spellcasters. Or is Garimto is simply slower than foreign players, whom have found spellcasting easy, and thus the foreign players already have good spellcaster micro and want to micro the main army, too, or what. If that was more clear?
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Or maybe, he criticizes the complexity not only because its hard for him to do stuff, but because he just thinks less spellcaster-centric game is more pleasing to play?
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I didn't get the impression he passed judgment on whether it was "pleasing" to play, as he only talked about the potential "wall" it would create for casual players, whom have no chance of casting several spells simultaneously at the onset of battle.
Maybe he implied it, but it's hard to take impressions/implications from "reading between the lines" off of a translation.
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Am i the only one hoping Blizz will bow down humbly to KeSPA?
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On March 11 2010 07:31 Thrill wrote:
Am i the only one hoping Blizz will bow down humbly to KeSPA?
It's a two edged sword, really. No telling what the two giants will do.
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So much texte, but it's an awesome read. Please boost tank's and Hellion's attack
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"NeoOmega: Artosis You may sound a bit like a phony TV weatherman when you commentate but your still an excellent human being." made me laugh for 10 minutes
And yes, tanks are to weak, I struggle to make them effective in a battle!
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It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
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I hope Blizzard bows down too.. Would be insane to watch all gosus play sc2. Mostly to compare the euro/us plrs with the asian gosus.
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Man, I remember watching replays of this dude back in 2001. He seems cool and knows his shit, especially regarding Kespa.
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On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
On March 09 2010 03:14 Artosis wrote:
Division 3
(R) garimtoss 1910 344-159 (P player. 2 time OSL champ.)
(P) FreeSaGa 1843 308-203
(Z) Starbucks 1819 80- 46 (name written in hangul)
On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable.
I think Garimto's insight is really interesting, particularly how excited he is about Battle.net 2.0.
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On March 11 2010 09:03 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 03:14 Artosis wrote:
Division 3
(R) garimtoss 1910 344-159 (P player. 2 time OSL champ.)
(P) FreeSaGa 1843 308-203
(Z) Starbucks 1819 80- 46 (name written in hangul)
Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable. I think Garimto's insight is really interesting, particularly how excited he is about Battle.net 2.0. Why are you showing this to me? I already knew he was in one of the top spots in the platinum league and that is exactly why i think hes just saying things to make people think that sc2 is all about whose thinking faster. I honestly doubt he really thinks there's anything complex about it. What proof is there that he got that record by thinking faster and not from having better mechanics than the current player pool? its just total bullshit
He's really old now and had no chance to do anything if the game wasn't very easy. It's obvious he would love to keep it this way. If broodwar is all about speed why are there hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner
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8748 Posts
On March 11 2010 09:11 Audiohelper123 wrote:
hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner
No way. What makes you think that? Top players are way faster than B-teamers and top amateurs. I have played them for 100's of hours. I have stood behind them while they play for 10+ hours.
Even people who only watch VODs, which are always between A team players, can see games where a player is simply outclassed. They'll both do standard strategies and tactics, absolutely nothing they haven't seen 100's of times before, and one person will be on top of things better than the other. It's just plain speed.
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And that speed comes not just from fast fingers and accurate mouseclick, but really its mostly how fast you think. When you KNOW all the time all the things that go on in the game, where to use your attention at any given time.
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On March 11 2010 04:18 edahl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 23:30 WaveMotion wrote:
whoever has the fastest hands wins? lol. Yeah, and the one that loses have to eat the cracker.
Hahaha. How can I be the first to pick up on this? Is this a nordic thing?
Ever played?
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Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius
I agree. The entire interview sounded like someone who likes the game but is bitter he won't be able to compete at the top anymore because the scene as a whole has gotten better.
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On March 11 2010 09:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 09:11 Audiohelper123 wrote:
hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner
No way. What makes you think that? Top players are way faster than B-teamers and top amateurs. I have played them for 100's of hours. I have stood behind them while they play for 10+ hours. Even people who only watch VODs, which are always between A team players, can see games where a player is simply outclassed. They'll both do standard strategies and tactics, absolutely nothing they haven't seen 100's of times before, and one person will be on top of things better than the other. It's just plain speed. im talking about pure hand speed like garimto says. Many people have 300 apm. I would say that flash just thinks faster on where to spend his speed which makes his game a lot cleaner.
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Freaking awesome. Love Garimto.
Thanks for translating it, Wax <3
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On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
That's such an insane leap in logic that it seems you're jealous of him.
He's played beta to a higher degree than anyone here and has the most refined opinion. You should at the very least take it with a more open mind.
You didn't even try to refute what he said, you simply started badmouthing him. Where does this get you?
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On March 11 2010 09:11 Audiohelper123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 09:03 oBlade wrote:On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
On March 09 2010 03:14 Artosis wrote:
Division 3
(R) garimtoss 1910 344-159 (P player. 2 time OSL champ.)
(P) FreeSaGa 1843 308-203
(Z) Starbucks 1819 80- 46 (name written in hangul)
On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable. I think Garimto's insight is really interesting, particularly how excited he is about Battle.net 2.0. Why are you showing this to me? I already knew he was in one of the top spots in the platinum league and that is exactly why i think hes just saying things to make people think that sc2 is all about whose thinking faster. I honestly doubt he really thinks there's anything complex about it. What proof is there that he got that record by thinking faster and not from having better mechanics than the current player pool? its just total bullshit He's really old now and had no chance to do anything if the game wasn't very easy. It's obvious he would love to keep it this way. If broodwar is all about speed why are there hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner
This is ludicrous. The reason you don't see people over 25 usually playing professional is because most people don't want to live the life of a Professional SC player when they get older. It has nothing to do with age. A 30 year old can easily compete with a 17 year old, but the incentive for the 30 year old is just not there. Similarly, would you see 35 year olds playing any other Professional sport if the sport they played treated them like Kespa/Teams do their players?
Besides, for the average professional gamer, you aren't making enough to justify playing after your early twenties. When e-Sports gets bigger, and more acknowledged I could easily foresee players playing until they are into their 40s.
I also lol'ed at 30 is really old. HAHA. Yeah, man that SC is just so demanding. Only people around twenty and younger can compete! Pffft, that Football! That's so easy. You can play until you are 40 like Brett Favre! That Baseball! So easy man. Nolan Ryan playing until he's almost 50! Look at these gosu SC players playing this demanding game!
It's the environment, not the actual competencies needed to play Professional that stops people from playing after a certain age.
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Thanks for the interview! GARIMTO is awesome.
On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Ygosu: So if we look at just the core gameplay, you’re saying that the vast amounts of experience RTS gamers have at digesting new strategies makes it so that the old progamers won’t be able to exploit the early phase like in Starcraft 1 or Warcraft III.
Garimto: I’d love it if it wasn’t so, but sadly that’s what I see. I hope I’m wrong.
 Just reading the SC II forum seems to show how fast the skill level is increasing too... Hopefully the final release of the game will have a really long evolution period like SC:BW! I also love how all the old progamers always mention something about the future of eSports.
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On March 11 2010 10:58 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 09:11 Audiohelper123 wrote:On March 11 2010 09:03 oBlade wrote:On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
On March 09 2010 03:14 Artosis wrote:
Division 3
(R) garimtoss 1910 344-159 (P player. 2 time OSL champ.)
(P) FreeSaGa 1843 308-203
(Z) Starbucks 1819 80- 46 (name written in hangul)
On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable. I think Garimto's insight is really interesting, particularly how excited he is about Battle.net 2.0. Why are you showing this to me? I already knew he was in one of the top spots in the platinum league and that is exactly why i think hes just saying things to make people think that sc2 is all about whose thinking faster. I honestly doubt he really thinks there's anything complex about it. What proof is there that he got that record by thinking faster and not from having better mechanics than the current player pool? its just total bullshit He's really old now and had no chance to do anything if the game wasn't very easy. It's obvious he would love to keep it this way. If broodwar is all about speed why are there hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner This is ludicrous. The reason you don't see people over 25 usually playing professional is because most people don't want to live the life of a Professional SC player when they get older. It has nothing to do with age. A 30 year old can easily compete with a 17 year old, but the incentive for the 30 year old is just not there. Similarly, would you see 35 year olds playing any other Professional sport if the sport they played treated them like Kespa/Teams do their players? Besides, for the average professional gamer, you aren't making enough to justify playing after your early twenties. When e-Sports gets bigger, and more acknowledged I could easily foresee players playing until they are into their 40s. I also lol'ed at 30 is really old. HAHA. Yeah, man that SC is just so demanding. Only people around twenty and younger can compete! Pffft, that Football! That's so easy. You can play until you are 40 like Brett Favre! That Baseball! So easy man. Nolan Ryan playing until he's almost 50! Look at these gosu SC players playing this demanding game! It's the environment, not the actual competencies needed to play Professional that stops people from playing after a certain age.
There are progamers who are 25 or older though so it's not like everyone hits a certain age and then stops because they want to go do something else.
Still, they don't perform well.
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As a student of korean/linguistics (and japanese  ) I'd just like to say that this translation is really good! I mean in the sense that it's not awkward at all, everything flows well and as far as I can tell you've kept very close to the source material without altering any meanings. Good work!
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On March 11 2010 09:11 Audiohelper123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 09:03 oBlade wrote:On March 11 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
It's so obvious garimto is just bullshitting when he says the game is too complex. Hes so insanely bitter about getting washed up that he takes shots at current pros all the time and tries to make it sound like they're brainless speedbots and hes some genius. The reality is that sc2 isn't any more complex than broodwar and you don't need to think any faster than you did before.
On March 09 2010 03:14 Artosis wrote:
Division 3
(R) garimtoss 1910 344-159 (P player. 2 time OSL champ.)
(P) FreeSaGa 1843 308-203
(Z) Starbucks 1819 80- 46 (name written in hangul)
On March 10 2010 23:21 Waxangel wrote:
Garimto: If someone asks me ‘Do you want to be a progamer?’ I’ll say ‘No’ but if they ask me ‘Would you compete in a tournament?’ then I’d reply ‘sure I’ll compete.’ That’s just how fun Starcraft II is for me. But I can’t make any quick decisions about becoming a progamer when the progaming market is so unpredictable. I think Garimto's insight is really interesting, particularly how excited he is about Battle.net 2.0. Why are you showing this to me? I already knew he was in one of the top spots in the platinum league and that is exactly why i think hes just saying things to make people think that sc2 is all about whose thinking faster. I honestly doubt he really thinks there's anything complex about it. What proof is there that he got that record by thinking faster and not from having better mechanics than the current player pool? its just total bullshit He's really old now and had no chance to do anything if the game wasn't very easy. It's obvious he would love to keep it this way. If broodwar is all about speed why are there hundreds of players faster than flash sitting on the B team or playing as an online practice parthner
Way to be a hater and make baseless assumptions. You mad he won 2 Starleagues and is at the top of the Platinum ladder or something?
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
interesting read
thanks for the translation!
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This guy is so right for the TvP match up Protoss have some huge advantage right now
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Thanks for this article, it was a nice read
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wong. long ass interview ~
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awesome
hope he does well in the early tourneys
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I read the whole thing...damn Garimto is such a intelligent man and to quote "a baller" hehe, very insightful to read this interview for any SC1/2 gamer 
Personally I got a new computer half a year ago and loving it but still have not explored any new games yes sort of stuck in bittersweet ancient gaming nostalgia but Im guessing when I eventually get around to SC2, the Battle.net 2.0 will be super competitive as people with over 10 years of gaming experience will be playing it.
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On March 11 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2010 00:08 QibingZero wrote:
Interesting stuff about Korea and progaming, but sorry garimto, corsair > phoenix.
I'm curious, how prevalent is bio+ghost TvP in the Korean beta right now? It seems very silly for him to wish for Hellion/Tank to be like Vulture/Tank was in SC TvP, especially when he mentions that people are too deep in the shadow of SC and using only a few types of units together. Hellion/Tank is surprisingly popular on asia from the reps that I've seen. Dno why that is though, Immortals seem to rape that combination something terrible.
Too many years of bw brainwashing that factories are good.
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I think what Garimto means is that you don't do many new plays in SC:BW. Earlier, it might be like "okay, he's playing a very defensive macro game with XY units, what do I do? I know, I'll play overlord drops with defilers!"
Now it's come down to the point where everything is prepared, like, defilers are used regularly and efficiently you don't just think up a plan in the middle of the game, the gameplan is pretty much set in stone after the first 5 minutes, thinking faster helps, but thinking creatively isn't often of any use, like you don't see players randomly going corsair dweb in pvt do you?
He's saying pro's brains are programmed to automatically process all the information that used to be thought up on the spot, so all their attention can be spent on doing everything perfectly.
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EPT
