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On March 09 2010 13:53 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 13:11 Foreplay wrote:On March 09 2010 13:01 Infie wrote:On March 09 2010 12:47 Foreplay wrote:
i think whats more boring than watching a long strategical games that have a lot of build up is watching fast predictable shit over and over. I doubt it will be long before watching hydra/roach a move against marine marauder will get stale. i don't agree. i skip most TvT promatches in BW but i do like ZvZ promatches. you like TvT more? i think will get longer as the skill level progresses and some balance issues are fixed. It took a while in BW before people could handle a 4pool. early BW was also dominated by rush strategies. also blizzard should make bigger maps. zvz is one mu out of 9 that is like that and it has really exciting micro. overall i think its really too early to say how the mu's will develop but right now all of them seem like an a move fest There are actually only 6 matchups. 3 cross race matchups and 3 same race matchups. Sorry to nitpick. On topic, I believe that games will grow longer as time goes on (I have already noticed this trend in beta, and it was true for SC/BW as well). I also believe that we will see a lot more micro, and very high skill, intense micro, as the game matures. The more that certain play becomes standard, the more that micro becomes required to determine the outcome of each battle. SC 2 will probably never have the sort of micro that players use in SC/BW to overcome bad unit AI, but in terms of maneuvering units and making smart use of casted abilities, that potential still exists in spades.
dur your right. i was tired when i wrote that.
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On March 09 2010 14:31 LunarC wrote:
I don't know why people think TvT is so boring. I think it's the most ridiculously exciting matchup just because there needs to be so much thought in where the players move their armies and how they carve the map, only to be decimated by mass dropships. When the dropships come into play, it's fekking glorious.
I also like ZvZ because it's so dynamic and fun to watch, but it's always intense, always short, and nearly always the same.
What I'm saying is, there's so much tension in TvT that when something explodes, it's that much more gratifying. People that hate macro games and find long strategic games to be boring seem to just be looking for some fast, intense action without caring much about the strategy behind each players' actions. Unfortunately, that's probably the majority of the casual audience and that's who Blizzard's trying to focus on.
I'm one of the people that watch every TvT and watch only Jaedong's ZvZs. Cuz those are the only ones worth watching.
im much the same as you...
i dont mind a decentTvT, and find ZvZ a total snore fest (95% of them are build order win unless  Jaedong or Hyuk are playing)
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I think this game was designed with minimal downtime being the main focus. But honestly i think its over too fast. A long game in SC2 is 25 mins? 90% of game being over by 10 minutes. IMO reduce number of starting workers, increase build times, increase unit hp.
I dont like my strategy games to be nothing but a big explosion in the middle. If i want to see more action and less strategy I would go play an action/adventure game. Hopefully they will slow the game down a bit.
Just my 2 cents tho.
Also i LOVE tension. I love watching a game in SC where we get to watch tension build and build and then "ok well its all going to come down to the next 30 seconds... GO!!" All of my favorite moments in SC matches were big plays after tension building and building and building. Some people are fans of "cheese" but for the most parts all of our favorite parts of SC matches were from longer games that came down to who played more strategically and who adapted. Currently in SC2 matches come down to "who made the better decision at minute 4-6" and part of that is due to unit hard-counters, but part of it is due to game speed. The game is just moving too fast to have time to make any reactions, its more like playing on impulses.
just my 2 cents, and i understand by posting i leave myself open to flaming, but "Flame on" i guess.
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I love TvT. And it's even better in SC2. Seriously, maybe the most fun matchup for me to watch so far.
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This game was designed with speed and intensity in mind. Straight out of the developers' mouths, though I don't remember sources. Try Gametrailers.com and watch some developer interviews for Starcraft 2. I think it's clear that super-mobility and fast intense battles with very little downtime is exactly what Blizzard was gunning for. The question is whether that was a wise decision (for gameplay, not necessarily widespread appeal) or not.
EDIT:
Source 1: Interview
Source 2: Interview
Dustin Browder on MP
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game is intended to be much more action packed and give the player the ability to recreate a large army within a very short time frame. (warp in, queen larvae, terran reactor etc)
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On March 09 2010 15:05 StayFrosty wrote:
game is intended to be much more action packed and give the player the ability to recreate a large army within a very short time frame. (warp in, queen larvae, terran reactor etc)
Yea, which isn't a bad thing. I definitely agree with the SC2 philosophy. Nice to see that they are tailoring the game to be exciting to watch..
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...at the expense of some strategic aspects of the game.
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On March 09 2010 16:04 LunarC wrote:
...at the expense of some strategic aspects of the game.
As players get better and better at the game, the strategic aspects will develop and become much more apparant than they are now.
It took Starcraft 1 pvz like 8 years before the current 'standard' build was popular (although maps tailoring to the build had a little to do with this). Beta has been out for 3 weeks, no one has really figured that much out in reality and everything right now is going to be much more aggressive because the safer alternatives haven't been refined enough yet for them to be both safe from aggressive play and at the same time let you have a significant lead into the late game. Although the points made in the op do sway towards the game will be more aggressive, I don't think thats a bad thing. Starcraft at the moment is not a fantastic spectator sport for people that don't know what's going on in all reality, pvt, pvz and tvt all wait have like 8 minute waiting peroids before any super exciting things happen in most games, zvz is HORRIBLE for people that dont know about sc, its a bunch of tiny little units attacking other tiny little units, followed by what looks to them as 1 mutalisk fighting 1 mutalisk until the other sides mutalisk dies and the other person leaves... What makes these games great for us is the subtlety, and the fact that we know the game in and out... Games with back and forth action and constant fighting are the remember-able for the average, just tuning in and doesnt know much about e-sports spectator...
Wow i really went off on a tangent and kinda threw 50 ideas into one arguement there... oh well -__-
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On March 09 2010 16:18 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 16:04 LunarC wrote:
...at the expense of some strategic aspects of the game. As players get better and better at the game, the strategic aspects will develop and become much more apparant than they are now. It took Starcraft 1 pvz like 8 years before the current 'standard' build was popular (although maps tailoring to the build had a little to do with this). Beta has been out for 3 weeks, no one has really figured that much out in reality and everything right now is going to be much more aggressive because the safer alternatives haven't been refined enough yet for them to be both safe from aggressive play and at the same time let you have a significant lead into the late game. Although the points made in the op do sway towards the game will be more aggressive, I don't think thats a bad thing. Starcraft at the moment is not a fantastic spectator sport for people that don't know what's going on in all reality, pvt, pvz and tvt all wait have like 8 minute waiting peroids before any super exciting things happen in most games, zvz is HORRIBLE for people that dont know about sc, its a bunch of tiny little units attacking other tiny little units, followed by what looks to them as 1 mutalisk fighting 1 mutalisk until the other sides mutalisk dies and the other person leaves... What makes these games great for us is the subtlety, and the fact that we know the game in and out... Games with back and forth action and constant fighting are the remember-able for the average, just tuning in and doesnt know much about e-sports spectator... Wow i really went off on a tangent and kinda threw 50 ideas into one arguement there... oh well -__-
I agree with what you said about spectating. I suppose we will just have to wait and see how Starcraft 2 develops. Hopefully interesting changes in how armies are composed and engage will occur in the players' hands. Otherwise, it'll be quite evident that something fundamental in the design of each races' unit composition is awry and forces boring, repetitive games with little subtley.
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it seems like sc2 is more of a step back towards moving giant armies in one direction like C&C, which is obviously Dustin Browder's specialty.
Yep, as much as I hate to admit it and hope that Browder doesn't want to add C&C stuff into SC universe, it seems like it already happened.
1. We got our "super units", like Mothership, Thor (which doesn't really have a role other than a higher tier Marine -> Marauder -> Viking) and a new monstrosity which is Ultralisk.
2. Sensor towers are VERY C&C like.
3. High yeld minerals.
4. Changeling.Spy anyone?
And I don't necessarily mean that these concepts are bad, but it really seems like Browder willingly or maybe subconsciously (simply because he got used to those concepts over the years and he can't come up with any other ideas and just assumes that stuff like high yeld minerals is supposed to be standart in RTS genre) tries to incorporate them into SC universe..
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EPT
