Here's one thing that really bugs me about the AI in SC2. Let's say I'm playing PvP and I build my first zealot and I'm thinking "hey time to go harass his probes a bit", so I right click move my zealot to the other guy's base. Everything is fine and dandy.
But then... my zealot sees the other guy's probe and he IMMEDIATELY goes to chase it. Even when I use the move command instead of A+Move, he ALWAYS chases shit. WHY?!
Or another example, my zealot is already in the guy's base, and I see he has another zealot out so I want to just run away after I've killed 1-2 probes. I right click move back to my main base and he starts running, then a second later he just goes to attack the other guy's zealot again.
This aspect of the AI is really annoying. I know it's probably in place to fix the newb mistake of right click moving instead of A moving and losing all your shit (like newbs do in BW) - but seriously it's so annoying... it makes microing even more difficult.
Am I the only one who is really really annoyed by this?
rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
On February 26 2010 03:56 koreasilver wrote: Along with the whole prioritizing attacking workers over attack units.
Can anyone confirm this?
i get the opposite, my units harassing workers will entirely stop hitting the workers and give up on them as they auto run across the base into the enemy army.
Yes its shit, a lot of times I was ready to click my zeal to harass his workers and I see the dumb thing is almost back at my base cuz it chased after a probe. Another thing is with big fights I cant figure how to position my stuff so that half my units wont attack a random nexus or pylon, I know it was sorta like that in BW but for some reason it seems worse here and unless I come at the perfect angle I will lose even with a bigger army.
Keep 1 eye on the minimap and if that unit is hotkeyed it shouldnt be a problem APM-wise to keep track of your harass units and notice when they arent doing what you ordered...
On February 26 2010 03:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I was hoping/thinking this is just a bug.
We all hope it is a bug but we all know it isn't. I'm sure the devs thought this was a good idea (like attack move rally points) because it makes sense to always have your units 'attacking.'
But yeah, I can see why it would be annoying. I personally like to send Zerglings all over the map for scouting, and it would suck if it would start chasing random units, especially late game.
I'm laughing at all the people thinking this was a deliberate design decision. That obviously sounds like a bug. Units should always do what they're told, and if units are randomly disobeying the player's orders, then it's bug.
Units disobeying the player is something that annoys hardcores and casuals alike, so I fail to see how this somehow proves Blizzard's evil conspiracy to ruin the hardcore Starcraft scene.
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too).
Woah that sounds really outdated. :o
In HoN you can queue up normal move orders as well as attack move orders.
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
Maybe that's how it's intended to be, but it happens without control pressed as well.
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
Maybe that's how it's intended to be, but it happens without control pressed as well.
Weird, I only encounter this when im trying to bind stuff and move them at the same time and when im trying to micro where I end up ordering units to move on top of other units =/
If for some reason you press shift, your unit will obviously continue to attack/do what its currently doing before moving... but I assume thats not what ur seeing.
On February 26 2010 05:27 Spawkuring wrote: I'm laughing at all the people thinking this was a deliberate design decision.
How come blizzard didn't detected this before releasing the beta tho? I bet they played thousand of games and it's impossible to get this unnoticed ... Obviously it's a very annoying "bug", and I hope they fix it, but there's this very small chance they did it on purpose which is sad.
Asking why they didn't is pointless as a tester and not your purpose. Maybe they already knew and haven't got around to fix it. Maybe it only emerged with this build. Maybe they fixed it previously and it reemerged with something else they changed. Just report it and keep finding more. The only thing that's sad is that you think it's on purpose for a unit to ignore a command.
On February 26 2010 06:05 Daniri wrote: Asking why they didn't is pointless as a tester and not your purpose. Maybe they already knew and haven't got around to fix it. Maybe it only emerged with this build. Maybe they fixed it previously and it reemerged with something else they changed. Just report it and keep finding more. The only thing that's sad is that you think it's on purpose for a unit to ignore a command.
Agreed. This thread is starting to become surprisingly similar to a government conspiracy theory website.
"Watch out guys. The 'man' is out to destroy our beloved Starcraft. First it was the macro, now they're making micro impossible, and sending brain waves so we can't multitask, then making pacts with the casual terrorists in order to ruin our lives. It won't be long until they start assassinating pro-gamers as well. Fight da powa!"
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
Maybe that's how it's intended to be, but it happens without control pressed as well.
Weird, I only encounter this when im trying to bind stuff and move them at the same time and when im trying to micro where I end up ordering units to move on top of other units =/
If for some reason you press shift, your unit will obviously continue to attack/do what its currently doing before moving... but I assume thats not what ur seeing.
Well, it seems to be affecting everyone (my shift key has been behaving oddly in SC2, but I don't think this is it).
I never use attack move for my scout worker, yet it always attacks whatever scout it sees. I never hold control when trying to run away with workers, yet they ALWAYS turn around and try to attack at least once or twice per game.
On February 26 2010 05:31 Battle wrote: I HAVE NO BETA anyone has try to use the hotkey of move instead of right click and see if it works?
I have tried, but I can't say for sure if it actually does anything. It's mostly out of frustration. I'll try and see for sure later.
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
Maybe that's how it's intended to be, but it happens without control pressed as well.
Weird, I only encounter this when im trying to bind stuff and move them at the same time and when im trying to micro where I end up ordering units to move on top of other units =/
If for some reason you press shift, your unit will obviously continue to attack/do what its currently doing before moving... but I assume thats not what ur seeing.
Well, it seems to be affecting everyone (my shift key has been behaving oddly in SC2, but I don't think this is it).
I never use attack move for my scout worker, yet it always attacks whatever scout it sees. I never hold control when trying to run away with workers, yet they ALWAYS turn around and try to attack at least once or twice per game.
On February 26 2010 04:32 CowGoMoo wrote: rally points are attack moves, and if u Ctrl+Click u also issue an attack move order. Another thing to note is if u order units to move to another unit, and that unit is fighting, your units will assume an attack move command (How WC3 is too)
The Ctrl+Click thing I absolutely hate since I do it all the time on accident when trying to bind units to hotkeys while giving orders...
Maybe that's how it's intended to be, but it happens without control pressed as well.
Weird, I only encounter this when im trying to bind stuff and move them at the same time and when im trying to micro where I end up ordering units to move on top of other units =/
If for some reason you press shift, your unit will obviously continue to attack/do what its currently doing before moving... but I assume thats not what ur seeing.
Well, it seems to be affecting everyone (my shift key has been behaving oddly in SC2, but I don't think this is it).
I never use attack move for my scout worker, yet it always attacks whatever scout it sees. I never hold control when trying to run away with workers, yet they ALWAYS turn around and try to attack at least once or twice per game.
On February 26 2010 05:31 Battle wrote: I HAVE NO BETA anyone has try to use the hotkey of move instead of right click and see if it works?
I have tried, but I can't say for sure if it actually does anything. It's mostly out of frustration. I'll try and see for sure later.
I seriously never have this happen to me, lucky me then.
Hm I wonder what the difference is then - there must be something. Similiarly, I have a problem with rally mining but nobody else I've talked to has this.
About 50% of the time when I set a rally point to a mineral patch, the worker won't mine - I think this is to do with it being 3D and me clicking next to the mineral... but that would seem like the mineral has a really tiny hitbox. Anyway, I dunno, nobody else seems to have this when I ask.
why can't they make it so you can set a rally point with either A for attack move or M for move? seems like a good idea.
M should move things to the point before they start going somewhere else.
If rally points are always attack move, it will be funny to see players using random small units like worker scouts or single zerg lings to wreck havoc on enemy reinforcement procedures.
Imo you should be able to set anything into rally point queue. Queuing move order to 1 place, then a-move to another, allow to give a patrol move to it, nevermind if those arent the most useful things to use - but why not allow it to do anything units do.
On February 26 2010 07:13 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: why can't they make it so you can set a rally point with either A for attack move or M for move? seems like a good idea.
M should move things to the point before they start going somewhere else.
If rally points are always attack move, it will be funny to see players using random small units like worker scouts or single zerg lings to wreck havoc on enemy reinforcement procedures.
On February 26 2010 03:56 koreasilver wrote: Along with the whole prioritizing attacking workers over attack units.
Can anyone confirm this?
i get the opposite, my units harassing workers will entirely stop hitting the workers and give up on them as they auto run across the base into the enemy army.
Yup only if the workers attack you will you be able to a move into workers to get them to attack, i know this very well because i do heavy speed ling harassment early on in my games. And i go a move into workers a zealot pops across the screen and all my lings just decide f it and run all to that zealot rather annoying.
On February 27 2010 02:47 milly9 wrote: I've played over 150 games and I've never encountered this bug.
Maybe it had something do with like CTRL-grouping a unit while Moving it? Thought i read about Idra having that issue when playing. Either way.. it must be a bug.
On February 27 2010 02:47 milly9 wrote: I've played over 150 games and I've never encountered this bug.
Maybe it had something do with like CTRL-grouping a unit while Moving it? Thought i read about Idra having that issue when playing. Either way.. it must be a bug.
This is what I mentioned earlier =) Ctrl+Move issues an attack move command. Its super easy to accidentally do this while binding control groups...
On February 26 2010 03:56 koreasilver wrote: It's seriously retarded that the units do that now. Along with the whole prioritizing attacking workers over attack units.
??????
I have no idea what they were thinking.
Yeah seriously Blizzard come on. Here's a bad situation with this prioritizing thing:
Let's say you are Protoss and you have 20 stalkers and 10 zealots or some shit I don't know I've never played the game. You wanna attack 20 sieged tanks. So you A-move them but he puts a line of 8 scvs right beside his tanks....are your units going to target the SCVS rather than the tanks? wtf? That would basically mean that all people have to do with a huge push is to bring 10 or so SCVS/Probes/etc. to take every single hit, and every single one of the attacking units will just melt as they try to kill the scvs, not even touching the attacking units...
It happens about 1/4 of the time I right click normally; it has to be a bug or otherwise it wouldn't happen randomly. What I find most annoying is that it I've lost a few ZvPs because when attempting to fend off a zealot rush, my zerglings keep attacking into the zealots and dieing when I'm trying to micro around them to cut off reinforcements or regroup my lings.
But if its a bug, why has it not been fixed in the past 2 patches?
On February 28 2010 11:25 Monkeyz_Rule wrote: It happens about 1/4 of the time I right click normally; it has to be a bug or otherwise it wouldn't happen randomly. What I find most annoying is that it I've lost a few ZvPs because when attempting to fend off a zealot rush, my zerglings keep attacking into the zealots and dieing when I'm trying to micro around them to cut off reinforcements or regroup my lings.
But if its a bug, why has it not been fixed in the past 2 patches?
The underlying mechanics in the programming might be more difficult to hammer out than "+15 time to gateway". If it really is happening randomly, they probably acknowledge it as a bug and are trying to fix it.
Game mechanics can be pretty hard to debug depending on how their code is layered.
On February 26 2010 03:54 Xeris wrote: Here's one thing that really bugs me about the AI in SC2. Let's say I'm playing PvP and I build my first zealot and I'm thinking "hey time to go harass his probes a bit", so I right click move my zealot to the other guy's base. Everything is fine and dandy.
But then... my zealot sees the other guy's probe and he IMMEDIATELY goes to chase it. Even when I use the move command instead of A+Move, he ALWAYS chases shit. WHY?!
Or another example, my zealot is already in the guy's base, and I see he has another zealot out so I want to just run away after I've killed 1-2 probes. I right click move back to my main base and he starts running, then a second later he just goes to attack the other guy's zealot again.
This aspect of the AI is really annoying. I know it's probably in place to fix the newb mistake of right click moving instead of A moving and losing all your shit (like newbs do in BW) - but seriously it's so annoying... it makes microing even more difficult.
Am I the only one who is really really annoyed by this?
It is not just Probes; it's default behavior for *all* units.
The default behavior for a unit that is attacked is to counterattack (pretty typical in RTS games; it's not unique to SC2 by any means). You have to override; however, doing so is simple (simply tell the unit or group to Hold).
On February 26 2010 03:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I was hoping/thinking this is just a bug.
Hope in one hand, shit in the other, as the saying goes. I think they've failed COMPLETELY at creating a competitive level game in terms of AI and micro mechanics. I have defended their simplifications to macro since they were announced on the basis that it would open up more opportunity for precisely executed tactics with more dedicated micro. But that worked on the presumption that micro would at the very least remain an option to the extent it was in Starcraft.
But they've removed nearly all benefits to terrain advantages, they've added auto surrounding, auto targeting of workers, AI based target reprioritization (to the extent you can't shift queue targets, for example, and things sometimes randomly drop assigned focus to hit something else), etc, and completely removed what made up the bulk of Starcraft's micro depth for the sake of newbie friendliness. And worse, they act surprised when this complaint is voiced, as if they don't even understand how what we're describing COULD be a problem.
I could care less what balance changes are made in the beta. They can balance it as perfectly as Starcraft by the time for the 1.0 release, and if they don't fix micro, as far as I'm concerned the game is a failure in both the spirit of Starcraft Broodware and in practice as a competitive RTS.
I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
On February 26 2010 03:56 floor exercise wrote: It's a bug
Its a bug right now :D
Aaaah the good ol vanish-bug, cant get enough of that haha. Same story there, first it was a bug then it was a latency problem and after that blizzard said "working as instended"
I bet in a few years its gonna be "working as intended" :D:D
On February 26 2010 03:56 koreasilver wrote: Along with the whole prioritizing attacking workers over attack units.
Can anyone confirm this?
i get the opposite, my units harassing workers will entirely stop hitting the workers and give up on them as they auto run across the base into the enemy army.
If Protoss defends with probe/zealots/stalkers my marine/marauder will attack the probes :p
i dont think this is a bug. sounds like something blizzard would do. wasnt it the same in wc3, where units would turn around to attack even though you ordered them to retreat, so that you had to tell them to move constantly, every time they'd turn anew? i know many people spam moves anyways, but there's a difference between doing it out of habit and being forced to do it because the unit simply doesnt give a shit.
as a t user im very happy about all Ai and mechanics so far. its made the game alot easier for me and my units has never bugged out or annoyed me like xeris zealot
On February 28 2010 09:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: Dumb feature then But I seriously refuse to believe that I've had control pressed every single time my scout scv turns around and attacks =[
I was 99% sure I wasn't pressing control too. But two days ago, since I became aware of the ctrl-issue, I started paying attention and:
As a bw player you tend to re-hotkey your units alot while moving them around. It's just an unconscious habit alot of us seem to have. Even though they're already hotkeyed to a key, we'll ctrl+number it anyway repeatedly to make sure. Repeatdely, over and over again. I caught myself doing this all the time with probes/drones/scvs and lings running around in the opponent's base.
Especially when it comes to scouting drones/zerglings/zealots, you tend to first send them on a move command and then afterwards hotkey them while they're moving. As far as I can tell merely hotkeying your unit is enough to change it from a move to an attack command. So with the scouting drones/probes/scvs I always spam move a couple of extra times after I've hotkeyed them.
I think it's something that can be unlearned. But it would be easier if Blizzard would just switch this functionality to the shift key or something. This happens way too often when you for an example try to split your lings into two groups while running away, and NO ONE seems to be using ctrl click the way blizzard seems to have envisioned us using it.
On February 26 2010 03:54 Xeris wrote: Here's one thing that really bugs me about the AI in SC2. Let's say I'm playing PvP and I build my first zealot and I'm thinking "hey time to go harass his probes a bit", so I right click move my zealot to the other guy's base. Everything is fine and dandy.
But then... my zealot sees the other guy's probe and he IMMEDIATELY goes to chase it. Even when I use the move command instead of A+Move, he ALWAYS chases shit. WHY?!
Or another example, my zealot is already in the guy's base, and I see he has another zealot out so I want to just run away after I've killed 1-2 probes. I right click move back to my main base and he starts running, then a second later he just goes to attack the other guy's zealot again.
This aspect of the AI is really annoying. I know it's probably in place to fix the newb mistake of right click moving instead of A moving and losing all your shit (like newbs do in BW) - but seriously it's so annoying... it makes microing even more difficult.
Am I the only one who is really really annoyed by this?
Why do you think such rediculous thing is intended? You should know Blizzard better. I didnt have this problem so far. Should be a bug.
On February 26 2010 03:56 koreasilver wrote: It's seriously retarded that the units do that now. Along with the whole prioritizing attacking workers over attack units.
??????
I have no idea what they were thinking.
What are you talking about. They dont prioritize workers over attacking units. What the hell. They attack closed unit which attacks. If opponent sends workers to attack thats totally fine.
On February 28 2010 09:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: Dumb feature then But I seriously refuse to believe that I've had control pressed every single time my scout scv turns around and attacks =[
I was 99% sure I wasn't pressing control too. But two days ago, since I became aware of the ctrl-issue, I started paying attention and:
As a bw player you tend to re-hotkey your units alot while moving them around. It's just an unconscious habit alot of us seem to have. Even though they're already hotkeyed to a key, we'll ctrl+number it anyway repeatedly to make sure. Repeatdely, over and over again. I caught myself doing this all the time with probes/drones/scvs and lings running around in the opponent's base.
Especially when it comes to scouting drones/zerglings/zealots, you tend to first send them on a move command and then afterwards hotkey them while they're moving. As far as I can tell merely hotkeying your unit is enough to change it from a move to an attack command. So with the scouting drones/probes/scvs I always spam move a couple of extra times after I've hotkeyed them.
I think it's something that can be unlearned. But it would be easier if Blizzard would just switch this functionality to the shift key or something. This happens way too often when you for an example try to split your lings into two groups while running away, and NO ONE seems to be using ctrl click the way blizzard seems to have envisioned us using it.
Ah -_- That would explain it.
This really needs to be changed, or you can't adjust your hotkeys (I mean you constantly add new units to your groups, or consolidate old groups after big battles).
Well if ctrl+num changes a units order, than that must definitely be a bug. There's no reason to do that. However, that video up there indicates that that's no the whole story.
On March 01 2010 20:56 Disarray wrote: if you look at the commands being issued, you can see move move move then several attacks
So you are saying you think the player used ctrl-click or similar to give the attack order? I doubt that, because he was frantically clicking and I'd be surprised if he used any keyboard keys at the same time (if you spam right click, there's no reason to use the keyboard, especially not repeatedly). Obviously, if the AI changed the order to attack by itself then it would also indicate that. So the icon in the command panel just shows the order, not who gave it.
The SCV attacked - when it was right next to an enemy building and - when it got attacked by an enemy unit.
I'm pretty sure this is more than an unexpected UI function.
I haven't encountered this kind of behavior yet. I can try to test it out when I get home from work to see if I can get it to happen and what causes it. If it is the control thing ... they really need to fix that. There is no reason to have 2 keys so close to eachother to have the same function ... especially since control has another major function.
I have come across that bug, but whenever I try to reproduce it I can't do it. It just happens sometimes. Usually when I try to micro lings against workers they sometimes do "attack move" and turns around when I command them to "move" away.
On February 28 2010 09:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: Dumb feature then But I seriously refuse to believe that I've had control pressed every single time my scout scv turns around and attacks =[
I was 99% sure I wasn't pressing control too. But two days ago, since I became aware of the ctrl-issue, I started paying attention and:
As a bw player you tend to re-hotkey your units alot while moving them around. It's just an unconscious habit alot of us seem to have. Even though they're already hotkeyed to a key, we'll ctrl+number it anyway repeatedly to make sure. Repeatdely, over and over again. I caught myself doing this all the time with probes/drones/scvs and lings running around in the opponent's base.
Especially when it comes to scouting drones/zerglings/zealots, you tend to first send them on a move command and then afterwards hotkey them while they're moving. As far as I can tell merely hotkeying your unit is enough to change it from a move to an attack command. So with the scouting drones/probes/scvs I always spam move a couple of extra times after I've hotkeyed them.
I think it's something that can be unlearned. But it would be easier if Blizzard would just switch this functionality to the shift key or something. This happens way too often when you for an example try to split your lings into two groups while running away, and NO ONE seems to be using ctrl click the way blizzard seems to have envisioned us using it.
Switching it to shift isn't a good idea, because shift + # adds the selected units to the hotkey and people that use that will face the same problem. This feature is present in BW, too, but it appears that a lot of people don't know about it.
On March 01 2010 17:53 Mystlord wrote: I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
If you re-read my post you'll see I didn't actually complain about the macro mechanics. Tons of other people HAVE found the same serious issues with micro I have, I'm not just ranting about imaginary issues
On March 01 2010 17:53 Mystlord wrote: I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
If you re-read my post you'll see I didn't actually complain about the macro mechanics. Tons of other people HAVE found the same serious issues with micro I have, I'm not just ranting about imaginary issues
On February 26 2010 03:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I was hoping/thinking this is just a bug.
Hope in one hand, shit in the other, as the saying goes. I think they've failed COMPLETELY at creating a competitive level game in terms of AI and micro mechanics. I have defended their simplifications to macro since they were announced on the basis that it would open up more opportunity for precisely executed tactics with more dedicated micro. But that worked on the presumption that micro would at the very least remain an option to the extent it was in Starcraft.
But they've removed nearly all benefits to terrain advantages, they've added auto surrounding, auto targeting of workers, AI based target reprioritization (to the extent you can't shift queue targets, for example, and things sometimes randomly drop assigned focus to hit something else), etc, and completely removed what made up the bulk of Starcraft's micro depth for the sake of newbie friendliness. And worse, they act surprised when this complaint is voiced, as if they don't even understand how what we're describing COULD be a problem.
I could care less what balance changes are made in the beta. They can balance it as perfectly as Starcraft by the time for the 1.0 release, and if they don't fix micro, as far as I'm concerned the game is a failure in both the spirit of Starcraft Broodware and in practice as a competitive RTS.
But yes, let's hope it's just a bug.
Well I thought it was a negative reaction to the macro mechanics
I've never had this issue, but I can imagine it could be extremely annoying. My only issue is the unit aggression range seems to be quite high on some units (I'm looking at you, zealots) and they like to run off and engage the enemy when I'm not looking. Because I have not experienced this I'm 99% sure it is a bug and it is caused by local phenomenon and not just the game itself, or everyone would've experienced it, not just some.
Another one for me (even though it's NOT a bug and it's completely fine, I'm just a twitchy spammer) is when I want to do 1 a+click and im chasing someone (targeting a specific enemy unit I'm chasing for example), I accidentally do 11 a+click and the screen shifts back to the center to my units and I target my own unit and I'm like "FML!".
On March 02 2010 02:40 ArC_man wrote: The move attack is one of my problems too =/.
Another one for me (even though it's NOT a bug and it's completely fine, I'm just a twitchy spammer) is when I want to do 1 a+click and im chasing someone (targeting a specific enemy unit I'm chasing for example), I accidentally do 11 a+click and the screen shifts back to the center to my units and I target my own unit and I'm like "FML!".
lol :D that happened to me back in the day when i played sc1 and like 1 time when i played sc2, its the first games to warm up where u spam alot but misclick cause hands r cold and head is lazy ^^
On March 01 2010 17:53 Mystlord wrote: I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
If you re-read my post you'll see I didn't actually complain about the macro mechanics. Tons of other people HAVE found the same serious issues with micro I have, I'm not just ranting about imaginary issues
On February 26 2010 03:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I was hoping/thinking this is just a bug.
Hope in one hand, shit in the other, as the saying goes. I think they've failed COMPLETELY at creating a competitive level game in terms of AI and micro mechanics. I have defended their simplifications to macro since they were announced on the basis that it would open up more opportunity for precisely executed tactics with more dedicated micro. But that worked on the presumption that micro would at the very least remain an option to the extent it was in Starcraft.
But they've removed nearly all benefits to terrain advantages, they've added auto surrounding, auto targeting of workers, AI based target reprioritization (to the extent you can't shift queue targets, for example, and things sometimes randomly drop assigned focus to hit something else), etc, and completely removed what made up the bulk of Starcraft's micro depth for the sake of newbie friendliness. And worse, they act surprised when this complaint is voiced, as if they don't even understand how what we're describing COULD be a problem.
I could care less what balance changes are made in the beta. They can balance it as perfectly as Starcraft by the time for the 1.0 release, and if they don't fix micro, as far as I'm concerned the game is a failure in both the spirit of Starcraft Broodware and in practice as a competitive RTS.
But yes, let's hope it's just a bug.
Well I thought it was a negative reaction to the macro mechanics
He literally said "I have always defended the macro mechanic but the MICRO is completely fucked" =P
This is blizzards way of making up for the MBS. Now that you have wattered down macro you need something to burn those APMs on and they are used to fend off suicidal tendency of units.
the units take too much initiative, and i'm also concerned about their responsiveness. i want them to do what i tell them to even if it loses me the game, instead of me praying while i watch them follow their hearts and some shit
On March 02 2010 04:53 intrigue wrote: the units take too much initiative, and i'm also concerned about their responsiveness. i want them to do what i tell them to even if it loses me the game, instead of me praying while i watch them follow their hearts and some shit
haha exactly. blizzard should just allow users to be the boss of decisions. Units should have no preference of what to attack or whether to attack.
On March 01 2010 17:53 Mystlord wrote: I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
Exactly. In short, a typical RTS decision tree for counterattack. It's why you often *have* to override when you want specific structures taken down before other structures (any RTS; this was the case in SC/BW as well). What I *do* like in SC2 (which was not the case in SC/BW) is that groups can be almost any size (instead of the SC/BW twelve unit limit) and mixed groups are possible (the inability to give air cover to ground forces bugged me no end in BW, not to mention SC itself).
I am the guy who made the SCV video, and I can assure you that I was not holding down CTRL and that I did not attack move. Why would I want to do that with my scouting SCV? I am by no means great at SC2 but I am a platinum Terran and thus know the basic controls.
I am also very sure that I do not send my initial scout with CTRL-click to the enemy base, and yet it turns around chasing my opponents scout worker half of the time.
The bug occurs more often when you spam right click, maybe most of the players who have not encountered it never spam (even in the heat of battle) and/or are very low APM users.
If you do not trust me, trust top level players such as Incontrol: Watch the following video and jump to 1:20
I don't think its a bug or that it happens when CTRL or SHIFT + A or H or whatever.
It happens all the time. I really think Blizzard should fix this. When you order your units to hold-position, they should hold position even if they are attacks. Currently even on hold position your units will just start chasing whatever unit that just comes close to it. Your units should only attack when an attacking unit comes really close to them, chase a very little distance and return back, or if it in hold position, just stand there not doing anything in every situation.
I think its really absurd how the AI controls the units instead of you. Player control should be 100% and not the stupid AI making decisions for you.
Happends to me sometimes too, but the most annoying thing is that rally-points behave like attack moves. If I'm contained as zerg all my new units that hatch (from the contained base that is) go attack the dude's army... While I really just want to mass up.
Someone, what happens if you A-Move and click on a enemy unit instead of ground? Will your units focus fire on that unit you clicked or will each engage the closest one?
On March 15 2010 03:54 HowardRoark wrote: Someone, what happens if you A-Move and click on a enemy unit instead of ground? Will your units focus fire on that unit you clicked or will each engage the closest one?
You cannot attack-move on a unit. Attack-move is when you click "attack-move" get it? If you click on a unit it would be "attack-unit", pretty self explenatory.
I can assure you guys that 100% it bugs even without holding ctrl. Also the AI is not as smart as people think.Units get stuck a lot.I think even more than SC1.Plenty of examples.If your probe moves and along a wall and comes across a zealot attacking it,it doesnt try most of the time to go around the zealot just stands there and gets hit.Also if you attack units with lower range than yours behing a wall of buildings most of the units stand there going left and right instead of trying to go around the buildings.
It NEVER happened to me, though I only have beta since v0.6. For me workers only attack when explicitly ordered to. You say you spam, maybe there is different meaning to double-clicking right button than single-clicking? I'll experiment tonight. Anyway, if you still get that problem a lot, set autorepair mode for your scout and that might prevent them from trying to fight anything even when you a-click.
What has happened to me a couple times though, is even if i shift-queue attack worker after worker after worker for my reapers, as soon as enemy combat units come by, the queue is forgotten and my guys try to fight back instead. But I haven't done this enough, the couple times I did it might have been my own screwup.
The AIs interpretation of your commands should be minimal. The options are all there at your disposal, they should trust you to tell the game what you mean precisely rather than second guessing everything you do.
A + click = Attack-move Ctrl + click = Attack-move (Easy to do by mistake)
Why the heck does sc2 have two different key-commands for the same order. The ctrl+click is easily made by mistake when rehotkeying groups. In my opinion the ctrl+click should be removed because A+click does the same job without any problems.
I have experimented around with this quite a bit and it KEEPS happening even when I'm not using the ctrl key. It drives me INSANE. As a useful test, load up a game w/ a friend. Walk to his base w/ your first marine, and shift click move around his hatch in circles. There's about a 50% chance that once he reaches each waypoint, the marine will whip around and shoot a drone once before marching onward. Drives me INSANE
On March 17 2010 21:56 Day[9] wrote: I have experimented around with this quite a bit and it KEEPS happening even when I'm not using the ctrl key. It drives me INSANE. As a useful test, load up a game w/ a friend. Walk to his base w/ your first marine, and shift click move around his hatch in circles. There's about a 50% chance that once he reaches each waypoint, the marine will whip around and shoot a drone once before marching onward. Drives me INSANE
Ah good to hear it's not me failing pressing ctrl... so many people on my stream constantly tell me how terrible I am and that it's 100% my fault for pressing ctrl when I'm sure I'm not.
On the other hand it's not good to hear because it means it's a problem with the game and blizzard STILL hasn't fixed it despite people complaining since the first day of beta
This is the worst thing. I spam right click a lot and it seems to trigger this behaviour more oftenly. My probe/scv/drone will oftenly turn around and attack the zealot chasing it when I try to move away from the zealot using right click.
I noticed one other really really retarded thing about SC2 AI the other day. Sadly I don't remember in which game it was and I played 20 games that day, so i'll just explain it.
I had like 4 zeals at a expo in a mineral line and through one of the holes in between the mineral patches there was a roach or something. Only 1 zealot would attack the roach, the other ones would just move around aimlessly behind the zeal that was attacking. I mean, the pathing with attack is really fucked up or something, because the AI didn't tell them to just go a bit to the left and around the mineral patches to reach the roach. It was really weird. And retarded.
On March 17 2010 22:26 z]Benny wrote: I noticed one other really really retarded thing about SC2 AI the other day. Sadly I don't remember in which game it was and I played 20 games that day, so i'll just explain it.
I had like 4 zeals at a expo in a mineral line and through one of the holes in between the mineral patches there was a roach or something. Only 1 zealot would attack the roach, the other ones would just move around aimlessly behind the zeal that was attacking. I mean, the pathing with attack is really fucked up or something, because the AI didn't tell them to just go a bit to the left and around the mineral patches to reach the roach. It was really weird. And retarded.
But this means that there isn't always auto surround, should be great news to alot of players ;D
Strange, all my units never do what they're not told.
My only AI complaint is if there is a group of units huddled together and a few of them are attacked, only those being attacked will respond. The rest will just kind of hang out and do nothing or continue attacking nearby buildings or something. Useless.
I remember in SC1 buildings had the absolute lowest priority. You touch any of the group and the whole group aggro's on you. Nowadays I can't get my units off of the damn buildings.
I think the problem here is ctrl clicks. If you're holding down ctrl when right clicking, it initiates an attack move command. It happens to me all the time accidentally, initially I thought it was a bug but it turned out that I was just hitting ctrl accidentally to make a group or something and it makes them attack.
Until recently I have been playing random and I have never had this attack instead of move bug happen to me with any race. I suspect it is to do with ctrl and people not being use to it.
On March 18 2010 12:03 RoboFerret wrote: I think the problem here is ctrl clicks. If you're holding down ctrl when right clicking, it initiates an attack move command. It happens to me all the time accidentally, initially I thought it was a bug but it turned out that I was just hitting ctrl accidentally to make a group or something and it makes them attack.
Every single time I send my drone scout out, I'm already waypointing it. I never just send my drone or ovie scout to a location, each one is always waypointed. Hell, in a 1v1 map, my drone is almost FULLY waypointed before I even come back to continue my build. I then continue filling the rest of the move queue when I'm waiting for another part of my build.
Never ran into issues attacking a colliding scout.
On March 18 2010 03:26 zomgzergrush wrote: I'm pretty sure it's been fixed...I can't remember the last time this has happened to me anymore...
So...what has been fixed?
Right click is move (not attack move) 100% of the time now?
nah, LZ still complains about it on his stream constantly
I don't think they are going to fix it, would wager they'll say "working as intended" but no one has gotten a straight answer yet as far as I know
I believe this is because a double click registers as an attack move. At least that was the conclusion they came to a couple days ago.
That would account for me never getting the 'bug', because I don't spam click the same location like skilled players do. The only time I am spam clicking a move command is when I am deliberatly altering the units path/target location.
im surprised blizzard hasnt fixed this bug yet. perhaps they're unaware, maybe this thread title needs to be changed to something that looks more urgent? it's pretty urgent imo ill also go post it in the bug report forum
On February 26 2010 04:40 EvilSky wrote: Yes its shit, a lot of times I was ready to click my zeal to harass his workers and I see the dumb thing is almost back at my base cuz it chased after a probe. Another thing is with big fights I cant figure how to position my stuff so that half my units wont attack a random nexus or pylon, I know it was sorta like that in BW but for some reason it seems worse here and unless I come at the perfect angle I will lose even with a bigger army.
Right click (without control) should always always be move, so I hope they fix this. I suspect if you unit hits something that makes it pause too long (how long?), it somehow goes into a new mode which resets it's orders to "neutral" or "stop". In which case it will do stupid things. I think this is the same thing that causes some units in a base to attack buildings instead of units.
When it comes to right clicking (moving) somewhere, they need to fix this bad. When it comes into play when you have blocked off the other guy (with units and buildings in a base), I could say this is fine b/c it just requires more attention to the fight. There is a limit to how fair this is though. Especially if this only affects melee units. It needs to be consistent for it to be a fair use of your attention and APM.
Something I've noticed recently is if zealots are being hit by siegetanks up a cliff (with a nearby ramp between them and tank more or less), and don't have direct vision, and there is a building nearby on lower ground, they will ignore the tank hits and attack the building. And die. It seems "off" as they clearly had a path to the tanks. Is this because they didn't have clear vision? Maybe I'm just not used to the new cliff mechanics. [EDIT: I'm not 100% sure, but I also think I right clicked the zealots to the tank when it "gave vision" when it shot, but they still turned around and attacked something else].
On March 01 2010 17:53 Mystlord wrote: I haven't encountered this bug where my units suddenly are on attack move instead of just move. That might just be me though.
As for whoever keeps on saying that workers are prioritized over other units, they're not. All units have the same prioritization - 20. The ONLY thing that I've seen that doesn't have a prioritization of 20 is a building, which has a value of 11. Unit behavior tree is: Counterattack -> target nearest unit -> target nearest building. Essentially.
@Louder: I haven't found such a serious problem with the micro or macro mechanics. The macro mechanics actually make the game more layered since they're not just basic resource boosters. Players are forced to make a choice (less so with Terran, but whatever) as to what to do with their macro mechanics.
As for "removing nearly all benefits to terrain advantages", unit positioning is still vital. Everything still works on the principle of surface area, and terrain still works around that principle, regardless of auto-surround or whatever.
I also haven't seen too much issue with target reprioritization, but if it's really throwing off target queuing, then I think it'll take all of one patch to make the code only run when the attack-move command is given rather than just a-click or shift-click.
I agree terrain advantages and unit positioning is still very big. Vs mixed units, your attacking units should not be so smart as to always target the biggest threat or the easiest to kill or which unit takes bonus damage. As long as units clearly do exactly what you tell them until they cannot, I'm fine with my control being 10 times smarter than the AI. That's part of what makes the game half macro and half micro, I hope.
EPT
But I seriously refuse to believe that I've had control pressed every single time my scout scv turns around and attacks =[
