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We have to concede that none of us knows what makes the perfect RTS-game until we've played it.
I think it's a mistake to always talk about how certain changes will affect SC instead of taking a more theoretical viewpoint and just discussing mechanics or perhaps even "ideology".
For example, I think todays RTS-games place too little emphasis on the strategy part. At least the ones I have played. Secondly, as a general rule of thumb I think the user interface should be "simplified" as much as possible. This is not the same as saying that units should micro themselves; only that if it's possible to make something more intuitive and better/faster then that will probably ultimately create a better game.
I don't think there's a valid reason for keeping the UI sluggish or tedious. If there is, then there's probably something else in your game that should be changed/fixed.
I don't think it's valid to debate how change X or change Y would affect SC. We're talking about how a modern RTS game should be like.
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i only clicked this thread cuz it said "every dick counts"
sry
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SC2 needs to release first.
And looking at the track record.
hmm ..... : - /
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On December 21 2009 20:08 Boblion wrote:
Sirlin has no clue about Bw or competitive RTS.
I don't want to be rude but i also think that he is an ignorant idiot.
Agreed. And to take it a step further, Sirlin has no clue about competitive gaming in general. I hate it when people quote or link to this article, it's so stupid and it doesn't apply to anything. I learned to ignore everything written by him/her long, long ago.
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I did it! I've read all 19 pages and now I feel entitled to share my opinion.
I feel that unlimited unit selection(UUS) is a good thing. It's noob friendly, but is not a good way to go to battle, just get near it.
The multiple building selection will make it easier to make you army, but it won't do your macroing for you. You still need to build enough of the production buildings to produce at max capacity, and you still need to work to get a good unit combination. In short with out a long drawn out explanation they don't auto macro just make it easier to macro when you decide to.
Auto mining will make the beginning of the game even more boring, but as the match progresses the extra minerals you get from workers not sitting around will mean that you can have more action.
The macro mechanics are certainly not noob friendly since they involve going back to base and issuing an order every X amount of time to use them to maximum effect. I'm fine with that. I believe that they should do more things to give the players with extra situational awareness and ability to multi-task have an edge.
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United States3824 Posts
It's the internet dude. You don't need to read anything to have a sense of entitlement
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to reply to the thread title yes i do bellieve every dick should count
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I read this as "every dick counts" EVERY time :s
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On January 23 2010 15:05 lazz wrote:
to reply to the thread title yes i do bellieve every dick should count
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On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Is it physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, it's not. You can only be in one place at a time and if you leave your other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and you're not using them efficiently. You might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? Not really. You'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. The screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will the audience miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to them.
Why do you try to speak for everyone when you speak for yourself? Especially when you are terran?
Let's fix your post
On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Am I physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, I'm not. I can only be in one place at a time and if I leave my other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and I'm not using them efficiently. I might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? For me not really. I'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. I like it more when the screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will I miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to me.
Be honest with yourself -_- the biggest problem here is some people can't imagine something they don't see in BW or even more - they don't really care even after they played SC2 like CharlieMurphy in DT viability thread.
Show that you care, show that you try to imagine how changes affect SC2 comparing it to BW AND THEN try to speak for everyone.
I wouldn't change anything in BW as it is now but it doesn't mean there aren't things in gameplay that in my opinion hurt it - a lot of units and spells aren't used because they are not rewarding enough with so many other things to do; unit mixes are simplified and when in certain match up 1 race isn't as demanding in unit control it causes huge imbalances - like mech in TvZ or neo sauron in ZvP.
edit: even in "standard" bio ZvT whole mid game is about keeping terran in base and delaying once he pushes to buy as much time possible.
People don't care about repetition until JD shows he has no clue about anything he didn't practice for hours and weeks and loses to some less standard build, someone blogs about good mind games because his father thinks SC is about who smashes buttons faster or Rekrul makes whole fucking article about Ret and xeno asians that play so much they don't even have time to teach Ret Korean.
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On January 24 2010 02:12 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Is it physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, it's not. You can only be in one place at a time and if you leave your other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and you're not using them efficiently. You might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? Not really. You'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. The screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will the audience miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to them. Why do you try to speak for everyone when you speak for yourself? Especially when you are terran? Let's fix your post Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Am I physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, I'm not. I can only be in one place at a time and if I leave my other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and I'm not using them efficiently. I might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? For me not really. I'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. I like it more when the screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will I miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to me. Be honest with yourself -_- the biggest problem here is some people can't imagine something they don't see in BW or even more - they don't really care even after they played SC2 like CharlieMurphy in DT viability thread. Show that you care, show that you try to imagine how changes affect SC2 comparing it to BW AND THEN try to speak for everyone. I wouldn't change anything in BW as it is now but it doesn't mean there aren't things in gameplay that in my opinion hurt it - a lot of units and spells aren't used because they are not rewarding enough with so many other things to do; unit mixes are simplified and when in certain match up 1 race isn't as demanding in unit control it causes huge imbalances - like mech in TvZ or neo sauron in ZvP. edit: even in "standard" bio ZvT whole mid game is about keeping terran in base and delaying once he pushes to buy as much time possible. People don't care about repetition until JD shows he has no clue about anything he didn't practice for hours and weeks and loses to some less standard build, someone blogs about good mind games because his father thinks SC is about who smashes buttons faster or Rekrul makes whole fucking article about Ret and xeno asians that play so much they don't even have time to teach Ret Korean.
Am I supposed to take your post seriously?
What I said meant "your screen cannot show three locations at the same time," which is a fact.
T_____T
Point 3. is also a fact. Sigh, whatever. Not gonna argue because I couldn't care less about what you think.
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On January 23 2010 08:59 JohannesH wrote:
Micro tactics dont have to depend on the enemy making mistakes. Theres always ways to micro better, even if both players pay full attention. Even if muta harass vs mm would be much worse than it is now, with different mechanics, that doesnt mean much when were talking of a game which isnt SCBW balance.
Also I find the kind of macro player who excels at clicking buildings quite boring... Someone who excels at micro is fun to watch, as is someone who plans his economy and timings perfectly, but if someone has the edge from multitasking unit production it isnt as interesting to see.
Yes, and these ways are boring and repetitive and incredibly hard for an observer to pick up on. Watch a bunch of Warcraft 3 matches where both players minutely control every unit in every battle for exactly what you are describing - it sucks and is not fun to watch.
That is the kind of micro that takes place when you remove "distractions". Two players staring at the exact same spot on the screen at all times and running grunts back and forth after every volley.
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Nope, it doesnt have to be like that at all. If for example, SC had the interface of WC3, would you or the pros be running hydralisks back and forth after every volley?
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Tedster, i disagree first of all that watching insane micro is boring. In Wc3 you have a max 100 food and an average 100 food army would be about 30-40 units.
In SC2 it will obviously be alot more.
Epic control of multiple groups of units (not having to manually macro) will probably be the norm in pro level play and im sure will be a spectacle to see.
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On January 24 2010 04:43 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 02:12 beetlelisk wrote:On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Is it physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, it's not. You can only be in one place at a time and if you leave your other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and you're not using them efficiently. You might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? Not really. You'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. The screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will the audience miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to them. Why do you try to speak for everyone when you speak for yourself? Especially when you are terran? Let's fix your post On January 23 2010 02:57 maybenexttime wrote:On January 22 2010 21:51 Aim Here wrote:On January 22 2010 19:24 IdrA wrote:
what they dont realize is that micro games are gonna become a whole lot more boring. alot of micro tactics depend on taking advantage of your opponents mistakes, many of which are caused by the fact that their attention is split 10 different ways. muta micro would be nearly worthless if terran could keep their screen on their mm group every single second.
half the reason harass is useful is because it gives you a multitasking advantage. As possibly the most skilless nooby on TL.net, I might be talking crap here, but doesn't the multitasking advantage still occur, regardless of whether it's micro or macro? Someone who can micro 3 control groups of mutas should still have a harassment advantage over a terran who can only focus on his one marine medic blob, and hasn't enough attention span left to defend two or three different places simultaneously. To add to what IdrA said. 1. Am I physically viable to micro 3 groups of units simultaneously? No, I'm not. I can only be in one place at a time and if I leave my other units (most probably important ones like HTs) uncontrolled - they're an easy prey and I'm not using them efficiently. I might as well do this in SC2. 2. Is it viable in-game? For me not really. I'd have to invest too much resources and attention for too little pay-off. 3. Is this actually good for SC2 as a spectator sport? Hardly. I like it more when the screen view can only show one place at a time. Not only will I miis out on a lot of the action but the game will also become confusing to me. Be honest with yourself -_- the biggest problem here is some people can't imagine something they don't see in BW or even more - they don't really care even after they played SC2 like CharlieMurphy in DT viability thread. Show that you care, show that you try to imagine how changes affect SC2 comparing it to BW AND THEN try to speak for everyone. I wouldn't change anything in BW as it is now but it doesn't mean there aren't things in gameplay that in my opinion hurt it - a lot of units and spells aren't used because they are not rewarding enough with so many other things to do; unit mixes are simplified and when in certain match up 1 race isn't as demanding in unit control it causes huge imbalances - like mech in TvZ or neo sauron in ZvP. edit: even in "standard" bio ZvT whole mid game is about keeping terran in base and delaying once he pushes to buy as much time possible. People don't care about repetition until JD shows he has no clue about anything he didn't practice for hours and weeks and loses to some less standard build, someone blogs about good mind games because his father thinks SC is about who smashes buttons faster or Rekrul makes whole fucking article about Ret and xeno asians that play so much they don't even have time to teach Ret Korean. Am I supposed to take your post seriously? What I said meant "your screen cannot show three locations at the same time," which is a fact. T_____T Point 3. is also a fact. Sigh, whatever. Not gonna argue because I couldn't care less about what you think.
You have nothing to base your "fact" on. It's too bad that caring what other people think isn't the same as being able to prove them wrong or even them being wrong at all. You don't help your case when you state you don't care but post anyways o_o
Even if we are talking about action happening in 3 different spots it doesn't mean they all need need to happen at exactly the same second and even if they do it doesn't mean they require equal spectator attention - I don't need to watch the very last marine dieing to switch my screen to other location. The same thing that allows good players keep their macro going is applied here imo.
During last WCG there was a thread in Broodwar about a site that allows to watch multiple you tube videos simultaneously - OP gave links to fpiews of both players from some of recorded matches and people found it cool -> it wasn't that annoying to watch 2, 400+ APM guys playing!
It's not like Koreans never show fpiews during early stages of games also.
- Multiple observers aren't anything new, if the guy that controls main screen ever gets confused other that aren't as static as him can ping him location on minimap.
- If both fpiews can be shown just like that (as I wrote earlier) then screens of 2 observers can be shown as well.
- Even minimap itself can be used to break technical barrier to show 2 battles going at the same time at 1 screen, just like it's done in Supreme Commander where both main screen and minimap can be zoomed in and out. All it would take Blizzard is to ignore cool badwagon kids of pure SC feeling.
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On January 24 2010 05:23 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2010 08:59 JohannesH wrote:
Micro tactics dont have to depend on the enemy making mistakes. Theres always ways to micro better, even if both players pay full attention. Even if muta harass vs mm would be much worse than it is now, with different mechanics, that doesnt mean much when were talking of a game which isnt SCBW balance.
Also I find the kind of macro player who excels at clicking buildings quite boring... Someone who excels at micro is fun to watch, as is someone who plans his economy and timings perfectly, but if someone has the edge from multitasking unit production it isnt as interesting to see. Yes, and these ways are boring and repetitive and incredibly hard for an observer to pick up on. Watch a bunch of Warcraft 3 matches where both players minutely control every unit in every battle for exactly what you are describing - it sucks and is not fun to watch. That is the kind of micro that takes place when you remove "distractions". Two players staring at the exact same spot on the screen at all times and running grunts back and forth after every volley.
I don't see the point in comparing SC2 to W3.
If you want to compare W3 to SC you have to imagine zerglings dealing 1 damage instead of 5 about 2 - 3 times slower and no equivalent of metabolic boost and adrenal glands upgrades.
Hero system alone with all those spells and itmes is so big and complicated it allowed to game be made inside game (dota) and there are no heros nor creeps in SC2 right 
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I've plaid a lot of Warcraft3 before switching back to Starcraft so let me explain why all these fears about Starcraft2 being "War3 in space" are non-sense.
The reason why War3 is kind of boring spectator wise, is that War3 is slow and that the unit combinaisons fighting each other are most of the time the same, not to mention that they're very few scenarios where 2 battles are going on in the same time.
1). The reason why the unit combinaisons are stereotyped at the high level, is not due to poor macro or whatever, it is due to the HEROES. When you opt for a certain hero in War3, you can't change it anymore, and all your strategies have to revolve around him. For instance if you're a HU player and that you don't choose Archmage as first hero, you wouldn't have the Archmage's mana aura and the Water elementals DPS to effectively play casters at tier2, and if you've no casters at tier2 you will be vulnerable at this point of the game, so the only way to not play AM first as HU is to take an early expansion, mass towers to prevent any kind of tier2 push and go for the high tech.
2).The reason why there's almost never 2 real battles going on in the same time, is also kind of linked to the heroes (hero spells synergize with the armie as mentionned above) but also due the fact that War3 has a fourth ressource called experience. You can't suicide your units to disturb your opponent economies because even if you successfuly disturb your opponent's economy, he will straight push your expansion/main base and beat you due to superior hero levels (losing units/time means more experience for your opponent heroes) and the fact that he has more units ; so spending time/units to disturb your opponent's economy is most of the times a bad choice, unless you're playing a mass expansions/mass towers/tanks strat which is considerd to be an epically lame strat, and which has been nerfed.
3).The reason why War3 is slow is that well, they wanted to make something more unique than Starcraft in the forest. And for those who haven't plaid it, let me make a revelation folks, Starcraft is Warcraft2 in space.
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Congo-line 1000 lings into my marine-laden blastula of death. Just please don't BM by forgetting to bring lye. I don't want to have to waste clicks or answer to the overmind...but if we are playing SimCity SC... I need everything to be spotless, so that when my medic avatar gets here from Andromeda ...or HeartBreak Ridge (i'm actually cheating with another medic :-O ;-D giggitty), I can defile[r] her hatchery with my thickly stacked mutas. The actual destination I wish is her sunken, but she doesn't let me in there, unfortunately =(. Probably because my lovers don't even know how much there is in terms of my mutas...the shadow is that scary. Regardless, she'll be on the Ride of Valkyries of her life. Show me the money 'cuz not we's hazin' kidzzz, Mz Kerrigan. Walk across the sea of zerg blood with me to the alter
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On January 24 2010 10:22 Spo0ky wrote:
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Congo-line 1000 lings into my marine-laden blastula of death. Just please don't BM by forgetting to bring lye. I don't want to have to waste clicks or answer to the overmind...but if we are playing SimCity SC... I need everything to be spotless, so that when my medic avatar gets here from Andromeda ...or HeartBreak Ridge (i'm actually cheating with another medic :-O ;-D giggitty), I can defile[r] her hatchery with my thickly stacked mutas. The actual destination I wish is her sunken, but she doesn't let me in there, unfortunately =(. Probably because my lovers don't even know how much there is in terms of my mutas...the shadow is that scary. Regardless, she'll be on the Ride of Valkyries of her life. Show me the money 'cuz not we's hazin' kidzzz, Mz Kerrigan. Walk across the sea of zerg blood with me to the alter
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finally this shitty thread gets some good replies
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/nz546r.png)
