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We've heard about it from about every single zerg gameplay impressions thus far. A missing link in the Zerg arsenal to allow Zerg to fight an even match midgame. You could say the Ultralisk answers the question, but by the time you have that many Ultralisks, you probably already crippled the opponent to the point your allowed to get Ultralisks from early game where you can compete.
I think (and most people would probably agree with me) that the hole is the transition from the spell caster being the defiler to the infestor. Anyone have any ideas for the infestor? The way this unit functions really defines mid-late gameplay between all zerg matchups, just like the defiler did in BW. I really think the infestor could be something really zergy and bad ass than simply temporary mind control which doesn't seem to fit at all. Something like storm or swarm that really changes the battlefield.
Otherwise, think of a whole new unit that could really fill that hole in the zerg arsenal. The way this dillema is solved by theory crafting and or blizzard in house unit devolpment and balancing will shape the face of zerg combat. And please dont give me crap about "theorycrafting does nothing", it has changed alot of things, such as the recent criticism about the zealot art. Theres a reason there is so many scratched units.
*personal ideas*
Infested terrain: spell that temporarily infests a large area of terrain (about as much as the storm covers) with a more powerful type of creep that vastly increases zerg ground armor, regeneration, and gives all other races a hp degeneration and slowdown to their ground units. In zvz you'd need to be careful to position your units so only they will benefit from the creep. The creep would recede at a normal creep rate.
Think Zergy guys XD The best race ever needs a weapon for when inject larva gets the nerf.
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lmao thats why I came too...
*Edit
K I actually read the post and yeah, I dont think larvae will get scrapped, just timed differently but anywho.
How about a unit with eggs on its back or something, that casts a biological feeding frenzy in almost dark swarm form. whatever units pass through the cloud, their DNA is sent to the caster and the eggs begin transformation into the zerg form of enemies left victim to the cloud, inject larvae could be used on the unit to give more eggs for transformation.
this unit could also devour (consume) any biological unit with a ranged tongue attack to replenish mana ala the defiler.
just off the top of my head but meh
another idea maybe could be a spell that might look similar to ensnare but instead of slow the affected units down it would stick them together, unit by unit like a real web. this would also limit affected units movement and disallow auto-surround and anything really effective lol
hmmmm?
*Edit 2 lol
close your eyes and just imagine these unit and spell ideas before you kill them
I'd like to read some other ideas too
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I actually came to read this lol.
Anyway, I agree with you
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On September 05 2009 11:01 Leg[end] wrote:
I actually came to read this lol.
Anyway, I agree with you
this(the whole thing)
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Infestors are fine. On top of neural parasite they have an improved ensnare called fungal infestation that eventually immobilizes them.
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I think the roach is taking the role of mid-game unit(lurker) but from what i've read they are just not as good as hydra. Blizzard needs to give it a different style of attack, like AOE or blind units, something annoying enough to allow the zerg to transition to lategame.
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i guess they took away plague from the infestor? last time i checked it had plague but that was 3-4 months ago. probably doesn't anymore.
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What about a very large AOE spell that works as a sight blocker + blinder?
Basically any units or detectors in it would suffer from SCBW "Blind" while the cloud itself would work as the new "sight blocker" doodad concept.
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I agree, absolutely. The infestor and Roach should be the keys to fixing Zerg Tier 2. Right now, it's cool, and relatively powerful--but it just doesn't synergize all that well with the rest of the Zerg army. Ideally, Zerg Tier 1 (i.e. Hydra/Zergling/Baneling) should be fast, powerful, but also weak in a few key areas--ideally, Tier 2 should be the units which take that Zerg army. and round it out, complementing the strengths of the fast, mobile Tier 1 army, while balancing out or neutralizing its weaknesses. I think they're going in the right direction with the Roach, by having it be a damage-absorber for the Tier 1 Zerg's low-hitpoint unit makeup. Right now, the problem with the Roach seems to be that it's just not all that useful except in very specific situations; but I think Blizzard is definitely heading in the right direction, and they'll get there eventually. And that alone should be a big help for Zerg Tier 2.
For the Infestor, however, the new ability "Fungal Scourge" (i.e. more powerful Ensnare) seems to be a step in the right direction, as it's a good "big army" ability, one that is powerful enough to turn the tide of a battle by allowing the Zerg army a critical advantage--but the Infestor needs at least another such ability to make it useful. Perhaps a return of Fungal Infestation? In any event, the problem is not unsolvable. I can't wait to see what Blizzard comes up with for these units...
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have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game?
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On September 05 2009 13:49 generic88 wrote:
What about a very large AOE spell that works as a sight blocker + blinder?
Basically any units or detectors in it would suffer from SCBW "Blind" while the cloud itself would work as the new "sight blocker" doodad concept.
The Overseer (also Tier 2) is supposed to have that ability [although limited to ground units]
My ideal form of that spell is
Spore cloud: LOS blocker, units/buildings inside it are blinded and cloaked.
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On September 05 2009 14:47 Misrah wrote:
have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game?
Please read the thread before you post. This again is for after they nerf inject larva to a simple macro mechanic (and probably to the point of uselessness).
If you've got ideas for how the roach and infestor could be changed into tier 2 combatants, throw it out there. Hopefully they should synergize with tier 1 as well.
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If "Fungal Scourge"/ensnare slows units to the point of being immobilized I like it
I'd suggest tweaking the Neural Parasite so that its Energy cost depended on the hit points+shield points of the unit it was being cast on, making it more broadly useful.
The Zerg player should be able to spend resources to permantly Infest the Terran Infantry units they control temporarily (as long as the Zerg has an Infester Pit)
I'd replace the "Spawn infested Terrans" with slightly stronger ability that was cast on a Building (Enemy or Friendly)... and caused it to spawn Mantalings
OR....
"Disease"..... ability is targeted at one unit
for 40 sec. it does 5% of the unit's Current hp in damage (rounding down and Not bypassing shields) every 2 sec.
If the Diseased unit comes in contact/nearby with a second unit, the second unit gets Diseased for the same period of time that the first unit is diseased for
so if Marine A was Diseased 10 sec. ago and has 30 sec. left
and he comes near Zergling B, then Zergling B now has 30 sec. of Disease
This is useful with the Infester's burrow-move+cast because you Don't want to cast disease in the middle of a battle, your units will get it... you want to cast it on the enemy army Before the battle
Roach sounds like it should be good as is, possibly some slight tweaking
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From what I can tell, the main problem with the roach is how awkward it is to get - it's a unit that isn't absolutely necessary, and yet requires it's own otherwise unnecessary building to spawn. I would hazard a guess that they would be much more efficient if they were available as an upgrade at another unit's building - like lurkers were in SC1. It'd make them available earlier, and useful as more of a transition than as a tier all on their own.
The infestor's ensnare type thing sounds great to me. I personally think that's the most important ability it has, but I'm not sure I know the current build for the infested terran thing. I can certainly see how an ability that builds up to mass ensnare is going to be able to completely reverse battles, in the same way that storm does now for protoss.
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On September 05 2009 14:47 Misrah wrote:
have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game?
That post sounded like it wasn't exactly thought out. That's not even close to how it works. Where do you jump from "run them over with 14501345013475145 tier 1 units" into late game? The whole point is getting to late game, i.e through mid game.
Please, refrain from posting unless you actually intend to contribute something to the discussion.
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On September 05 2009 17:11 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 14:47 Misrah wrote:
have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game? That post sounded like it wasn't exactly thought out. That's not even close to how it works. Where do you jump from "run them over with 14501345013475145 tier 1 units" into late game? The whole point is getting to late game, i.e through mid game. Please, refrain from posting unless you actually intend to contribute something to the discussion. Read this and his point will make sense...Maybe you should think before posting?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101195
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I really really like the idea of razor plague. I hope blizz can somehow bring it back in, maybe on the infestor as a replacement for spawn infested terrans, which almost everyone dislikes.
Btw, has anyone thought of using neural parasite vs. toss like how you switch to muta during 5 hatch hydra? Mind control all the templars as they reach the rally point----> storm all the toss units...*drools*
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The hole in the zerg ars…
disappointing
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On September 05 2009 15:32 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 14:47 Misrah wrote:
have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game? Please read the thread before you post. This again is for after they nerf inject larva to a simple macro mechanic (and probably to the point of uselessness). If you've got ideas for how the roach and infestor could be changed into tier 2 combatants, throw it out there. Hopefully they should synergize with tier 1 as well.
if they fix that
they'll fix the problem that you have here. no need to discuss over something they're bound to fix.
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I think the creep idea works well... they could add something like ensnare that lowered infantry vision to like 1 or 2 matrices, that would be cool
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On September 05 2009 14:05 Captain Peabody wrote:
I agree, absolutely. The infestor and Roach should be the keys to fixing Zerg Tier 2. Right now, it's cool, and relatively powerful--but it just doesn't synergize all that well with the rest of the Zerg army. Ideally, Zerg Tier 1 (i.e. Hydra/Zergling/Baneling) should be fast, powerful, but also weak in a few key areas--ideally, Tier 2 should be the units which take that Zerg army. and round it out, complementing the strengths of the fast, mobile Tier 1 army, while balancing out or neutralizing its weaknesses. I think they're going in the right direction with the Roach, by having it be a damage-absorber for the Tier 1 Zerg's low-hitpoint unit makeup. Right now, the problem with the Roach seems to be that it's just not all that useful except in very specific situations; but I think Blizzard is definitely heading in the right direction, and they'll get there eventually. And that alone should be a big help for Zerg Tier 2.
IMO what Blizzard needs to do is to change the tech tree. The Roach should be tier 1 and the Baneling should be buffed and in tier 2.
The Roach would be good against most tier 1 units, but its weakness would be low speed and higher tiered units (either high damage stuff like Reapers w/ D8, Siege Tanks, roaches, collossi or air units)
If the Baneling can explode while being burrowed, it could fill the same role as the Lurker in BW (can be built in larger numbers to attempt to break a nat, or could be used to defend chokes)
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infestor has some pretty crazy abilities, neural parasite (mind control a unit basically). Excellent for use on HT, Collosi, stray air units, etc. It also have the fungal spores (i think it still has this) where it shoots a glob at a unit and it slowly dies and explodes doing aoe. (kinda like irradiate).
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On September 05 2009 17:17 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 17:11 Leg[end] wrote:On September 05 2009 14:47 Misrah wrote:
have any of you people read the new article about spawning larve??? Sounds like zerg is currently IMBA- and who needs mid tier teck when you can run anyone other with 14501345013475145 tier 1 stuff untill you get to late game? That post sounded like it wasn't exactly thought out. That's not even close to how it works. Where do you jump from "run them over with 14501345013475145 tier 1 units" into late game? The whole point is getting to late game, i.e through mid game. Please, refrain from posting unless you actually intend to contribute something to the discussion. Read this and his point will make sense...Maybe you should think before posting? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101195
This thread isn't about larvae injection. With or without larvae injection there is still a need for midgame tech that is sufficient to pull the player into the lategame.
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A new Dark Swarm that blocks sight just like the bushes and makes units miss would be incredibly awesome.
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zerg is already imba, why make it more so?
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All Zerg tier 3 are high HP high damage units. I don't mind the idea of Zerg not having a solid midgame unit. Let them be different by still focusing on massed low-tier, and supportive High health high-damage late tech. As long as the mid-game units provide enough shielding (roach), and harassment (muta), they can progress in a unique way which further gives the Zerg a swarmy feeling. Who says every race needs a solid mid tech unit to be balanced :D
edit: just want to add that making Hydra a bit 'glass cannon' with lowish hp, lowish cost and decent damage would further add to this. It would be great if the Zerg had a ground unit almost as massivke as the kings which can attack air too, which is fairly easy to kill. It would also cement the roaches role a little more as it would make your massed swarm units more viable later game.
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Hive tech has three ground only units (Lurker, Brood Lord, Ultra), two of them being for siege purposes. Overlap much?
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On September 06 2009 08:17 Gnaix wrote:
zerg is already imba, why make it more so?
says the zerg, and it isnt imba already
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I think the Infestor unit as a whole (abilities and all) should dissolve into the Queen. Lending it some sort of tier 2 (or 2.5) tech to have a game changing spell for mid-game to late-game phase changes. With that unit being gone Blizzard then can:
A. Create a new unit.
- Maybe a new Air Unit morphed from the Mutalisk?
B. Bring back an old unit.
- Defiler?
- Scourge? (rebalance Zerg air efficiency so this unit is needed again) - only a wild suggestion
- Devourer? (Throw the Gaurdian back into the mix PLUS add the Corruptor and you potentially have the Zerg Air Dominance the Terran had in SC1 with mechanical units over all other ground units.)
Lets be honest, the Infestor as lore seems to work only seamlessly because we've forced ourselves as hardcore fans to believe it so - though being caused by the game developmental process and innocent routine flaw. The Queen was the 'infester' in SC1 but it flew in SC1 too lore change and the Defiler already sounds like Zerg ability of infesting of/or corrupter of races - they didnt need to replace it with virtually the same thing.
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it can cast ensnare with 50 mana and twice the radius of the current queen's ensnare.
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Canada11367 Posts
How about something simple like dropping the Lurker to tier 2? I heard it's no more powerful than before, but it's pushed to tier 3. It might at least give the Zerg some mass damage in the midgame/ a decent offensive/defensive unit.
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I vote they just bring the fucking defiler back. It's my favorite zerg unit in BW, and I'm going to miss it SO much. T_T.
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You know what they should do, buff the stats on Hydras/Roaches and make it so that the Queen can only spawn drones and no other unit. That way you get less units. But they are stronger. And Queen is now on par with Mules/DarkPylon
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Dancedance, zerg are not protoss, the races are supposed to be different. Yes it's tough to balance but it's very worth it.
Defiler was uninspired, spore cloud for life. Blind and cloak is a nice idea, though it's almost moot since it blocks los without a flyer anyway. Needing a flying detector to attempt a counter for spore cloud is just asking for OP imo.
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I saw get the original creators of the game working on sc2 lol
the only unit's the new blizzard are changing are the Magical and armored units, its almost like "Wowablo Craft 2.3: Wrath of the Beta" if you catch my drift
just beta to a select crowd for a month with units and buildorder plans stats w/e planned out and change them around till that month selected users (pros) like them.
then release it national beta
then world beta
then HURRAY A GOOD GAME IS RELEASED AND YOU KNOW ITS GOOD BECAUSE THE WHOLE FRIGGEN WORLD TOLD YOU SO
I just really wanna play sc2
and see what all the fuss is about and most of all HELP BLIZZARD DO IT RIGHT
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On September 07 2009 07:52 emikochan wrote:
Dancedance, zerg are not protoss, the races are supposed to be different. Yes it's tough to balance but it's very worth it.
Defiler was uninspired, spore cloud for life. Blind and cloak is a nice idea, though it's almost moot since it blocks los without a flyer anyway. Needing a flying detector to attempt a counter for spore cloud is just asking for OP imo.
Its not like every race already has one, yeees?
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On September 07 2009 14:59 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 07:52 emikochan wrote:
Dancedance, zerg are not protoss, the races are supposed to be different. Yes it's tough to balance but it's very worth it.
Defiler was uninspired, spore cloud for life. Blind and cloak is a nice idea, though it's almost moot since it blocks los without a flyer anyway. Needing a flying detector to attempt a counter for spore cloud is just asking for OP imo.
Its not like every race already has one, yeees?
That is true, but it may infringe on the static defence of bases quite a bit to require a flying detector.
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the problem with massive zerg macro is that you can burn through your resources quickly without doing much damage
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Calgary25986 Posts
Don't know what game you guys are playing, Zerg rapes midgame in the current build.
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On September 09 2009 09:24 Chill wrote:
Don't know what game you guys are playing, Zerg rapes midgame in the current build.
woot
i just want zerg to rape late game as well now 
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The only real problem with the Zerg mid-game is that we have not had enough reviews and vids of people using it correctly.
I have not seen one blog or interview or vid of a player using Roach as intended (as a living shield to be placed between you and the enemy and to be microed to maintain that position). The only people who did try to use it attempted to mass them or use them for harrassement.
The Roach is clearly a key mid-game unit. The new design of the Hydra is more of a glass cannon. The roach allows them to utilise their high damage and give them the survivability they (deliberatly) lack on their own in the mid-late game. The roach would even be super effective with melee units (including zerglings) because it would take all the hits as the swarm approaches the enemy units/defenses and burrow (or just run away or die), allowing the melee units to get right into melee range before taking any damage at all. Which is exactly what melee units want.
We simply don't have sufficient data to rate the mid-game of the Zerg. We have zero clue as to how balanced or viable it is.
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Canada11367 Posts
In the latest rounds of balance changes for #StarCraft 2, Roaches can now move while burrowed. Should open up some cool new strategies.about 15 hours ago from CoTweet
So do you this will fix the problem? It certainly distances it from the hydra and makes it a game changer- requires relatively early 'cloak' detection to counter (unlike the current late game lurker). It would be the Zerg's ninja- I suppose it would have to unburrow to attack- different from the dt. I just wonder if it can burrow through cliffs- that would be extremely powerful.
But like all development things, this ability can be dumped pretty quick.
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On September 06 2009 10:13 Leg[end] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2009 08:17 Gnaix wrote:
zerg is already imba, why make it more so? says the zerg, and it isnt imba already
oh, so larvae injection winning every game isn't imba. Yeah, let's add more stuff so zerg can just win in under a minute.
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I don't like the idea in the op, a spell that buffs like an aura doesn't really seem like a starcraft-esque skill. It is more a warcraft 3 type skill.
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I personally believe the Roach would better at tier 2 as a unit morphed from the Hydralisk. That way it can speed up production vs.Terran and Protoss by the use of Larva Injection in mid-game. I suspect that it would be a big aspect for sustaining, gaining, or losing an advantage.
With this type of change, Zerg can utilize Larva in mid-game for Drones or other units based on late tier-2-scouting. It will help Zerg and will still require strategic choice of either staying low tier (Zerglings/Hydralisks/Banelings) or climbing up the tech tree. But this type of scout-based strategy implies that with this, it will force Terran and Protoss to hit the Zerg's economy rather than always having to press the army which is, at the moment, Zerg's downfall in mid-game.
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Canada11367 Posts
On September 15 2009 08:58 Gnaix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2009 10:13 Leg[end] wrote:On September 06 2009 08:17 Gnaix wrote:
zerg is already imba, why make it more so? says the zerg, and it isnt imba already oh, so larvae injection winning every game isn't imba. Yeah, let's add more stuff so zerg can just win in under a minute.
Actually yes. Zerg's strength early game and mid-game appear to be separate problems. If it turns out that the inject is too overpowered, it will be changed. That brings us back to the midgame, which was lacking. So it too needs changes.
The current version of the Roach apparently can move while burrowed- is this starting to move in the right direction of a game changing unit and differentiating it from the Hydralisk?
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On September 06 2009 10:05 marshmallow wrote:
Hive tech has three ground only units (Lurker, Brood Lord, Ultra), two of them being for siege purposes. Overlap much?
Brood lords fly last time i checked, unless i'm thinking of the wrong unit.
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On September 15 2009 14:49 Twilight Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2009 10:05 marshmallow wrote:
Hive tech has three ground only units (Lurker, Brood Lord, Ultra), two of them being for siege purposes. Overlap much? Brood lords fly last time i checked, unless i'm thinking of the wrong unit.
Right, but it only attacks ground.
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I think there should be an mid game upgrade that would cause 4 lings to spawn from each egg, instead of 2. That would solve any mid game difficulties.
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It's a long way away. Let the beta start and we'll see.
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On September 15 2009 16:36 marshmallow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2009 14:49 Twilight Templar wrote:On September 06 2009 10:05 marshmallow wrote:
Hive tech has three ground only units (Lurker, Brood Lord, Ultra), two of them being for siege purposes. Overlap much? Brood lords fly last time i checked, unless i'm thinking of the wrong unit. Right, but it only attacks ground.
O my bad, I misunderstood you.
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Roach needs micro. U cant just leave it figthing.U need to burrow when it is with like 30% of life to use the regeneration bonus underground.All videos that i have seen uses it wrong.
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the fast speed regen while burrowed was a new addition. before the Roach would regenerate just as fast above ground. Now it requires a bit of micro to gain access to the healing by burrowing, but it compensates by getting burrowed movement
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@JohnBall
Hah, that idea is sick and Zergy as hell. Especially when the unit selection is so high. Unfortunetely it doesn't matter how many zerglings get sent in against terran balls, they get fried immedieatly upon impact. BW zerg play had to use defliers to combat the ball, throwing in more zerglings just doesnt seem like it would cut it.
While we havn't seen any pro footage of roach/hydra combination fighting, blizzard has already mentioned how zerg midgame is lacking, thats what I'm basing this on.
@mastuh
I agree. All SC spells are very tactical, and thats what makes them so awesome. Instead of buffs n such, it could just be a large plop of creep that is casted. Starts as a seed shot by the deflier and the seed quickly creates a sizable area of creep. This will allow a large mass of zerglings to almost instantaneously begin attacking the opposing army (have you seen them run on creep with speed? holy crap).
But yeah, an ingenious tactical spell is really exciting for the crowds and perfect to fix mid-late game.
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Sorry, Zerg has ALWAYS been the weakest but have been able to mass produce to overpower strong armies. I strongly feel the zerg, if played correctly, will be in a league of its own
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On September 05 2009 19:12 chicken` wrote:
The hole in the zerg ars…
disappointing
Exactly my thoughts...
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EPT
