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Laserath
United States19 Posts
I just got beta but am having a problem logging in. While waiting I thought I would do some research on how Protoss is being played in HotS. I'm looking for something like this thread but for HotS. I see the Protoss Help Me Thread in the HotS forum but it isn't the collection of info that the linked thread is in the SC2 Strategy Forum. I did some searching but couldn't find what I'm looking for, I'm sorry for posting if my search-foo wasn't up to snuff. Thanks, - Laserath | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
There are some little things like if you go gas first as protoss without cutting probes I think you can get a msc and wg started right when cyber core is done. Everything from wings will still line up at least close so you can start from there. I know the number one gm protoss was doing 1gate expo vs terran and zerg and then 3 stalker rush vs protoss. Forge expand is still popular against zerg though and it is possible to 1gate expand in pvp now if you do it right. I even saved replays of angry people about losing with 3-4 gate blink/msc builds vs 1gate expo. TLDR: games new. Try stuff and see what works and what doesn't till pro players come up with super refined perfect builds to copy. Pvt: watch out for hellbat/mine drop openeings. Pvp: beware the mass voidray player. Pvz: if skytossing watch out for hydra only push. | ||
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
PvP - DT/Archon 4 Gate: 13 Gate, 15 Gas x2 (4 probes on gas until 16 workers on minerals), Stalker, Twilight Council, Gateway x3, Dark Shrine (as soon as Twilight Council is done), Zealot Charge research (optional, depending on situation, but good against Immortals). Hide a proxy pylon. Make ~4 Stalkers, then focus on making Zealots. When your Dark Shrine is done, make 1-2 DTs and send them to harass. Move out with your army of mostly zealots with a few stalkers; warp in a 4 DTs and morph them into archons, and attack with Zealot/Stalker/Archons as soon as DT harass peters out. -Basic Stargate play: This dominates PvP currently, and basically you want to open with 4 probes on gas and go 1 Gate Stargate. From here, you look at what your opponent is doing with your probe scout and, depending on his opener, you want to either go Oracle or Phoenix. Against a Robo opener or a Twilight Council opener, you want to open with Oracles, usually 3; depending on his unit count and how he postures his defensive units and whether or not he is quick teching or expanding, you either go out with your first Oracle and hit workers, rallying the second, or you stockpile them and move out with 2-3. Let scouting be your guide; against DT play (or suspected DT play), you want to leave your 2nd Oracle at home for Envision so you don't get caught with your pants down. Against another Stargate build, you obviously want to chronoboost out Phoenix, and starting +1 Air Weapons as soon as WG research is done is a good idea; you can cancel it if he opens Oracle and transitions out of Stargate for some reason, but having a jumpstart on air upgrades is good as a lot of PvP devolves into a Phoenix mirror, and in addition to having Sentries available for Guardian Shield, having a solid head start on upgrades is the best path to an advantage that is otherwise hard to get in the fickle Phoenix wars. You can expand off of a Stargate opener after you do some damage with Oracles, and you want to move to 3 Stargate mass Void Rays against any composition other than mass air; Void Rays beat any possible Protoss lategame composition other than Phoenix, and Phoenix beats Void Ray. It's pretty much as simple as that, so against air, mass Phoenix with upgrades, and against ground, mass Void Rays; when going Void Ray, you should delay upgrades until you are producing from 3 Stargates, because you want your VR count to be high enough to melt Stalkers easily and there are some small timing windows in which you CAN lose before you have enough Voids. Blink Stalker/MSC 4 Gate: This build isn't that good anymore because it loses to DT 4Gate and Stargate is very powerful, but for certain maps, it's worth it to at least learn it. It's basically the same as the Blink/Obs build from WoL, only you want to go 1 Gate Twilight Council, and then start a Mothership Core as soon as you start Blink, then get 3 extra gates; make Stalkers and hide a proxy, move out when Blink and your 4 WGs are done and you should know the rest. I don't recommend this anymore as the metagame makes it kind of weak relative to other possible openers and Blink research time is a lot longer now, but it's there and there are some situations where it can be effective, like against a SG player in a situation where you'd really rather not get involved in a Phoenix mirror. Robo play: I don't recommend it in PvP; it's the same as in WoL really, except for two things; against SG, you absolutely MUST keep some stalkers in any and all mineral lines until you can get cannons there or you confirm there is no possibility for Oracle harassment or counter-attack, and later on against SG, you WILL lose to a mass Void Ray composition unless you have a LARGE flock of Phoenix to take them out; if you do go Robo and survive, against a good PvPer, you really, really want to throw down 1-2 Stargates, chronoboost out Phoenixes ASAP and get +1 Air attack; a good tactic, if you do get to this point, is to engage the mass VR, separate your Phoenixes from everything else, and have your MSC recall your ground army back home so you don't lose it to mass VR, then move back out once it's safe and you've whittled down the VRs to a more manageable level. Overall, you'll probably lose to Voids in lategame if you are unable to transition to Phoenix though, I just thought I'd put this here to cover all bases since Robo play was THE metagame in WoL and things are so very different now. PvT -Proxy Stargate Oracle harass: 2 gas opening, but you probably want all 6 probes on gas for this. You want to open 1 Gate SG, get a Stalker and a MSC, proxy a pylon and leave the probe there and start the SG ASAP. Chrono out Oracles and harass, and start a Nexus around 30 supply. From here, you obviously base your transition on the scouting information you get and how much damage you can do. I like to transition into 2 Forge HT tech and get storm out fairly quickly with this, but again, let scouting be your guide. -1 Gate SG: This is the same as the proxy Oracle opener, only with the Stargate in your base; play it the same way. The downside is it is easier scouted so you might not do as much damage; the upside is you get to keep your SG. Pretty popular opener right now but very much hit-or miss; if you do damage, you do a LOT of it and the game is yours to lose. If you don't, you're pretty damn far behind especially since Terran is a lot stronger with mech play dominated by Hellbats and Widow mines, both of which OWN Immortals and Archons. Don't drag the game out because you don't want to fight against mech if you don't have to; if you can kill a Terran before he gets to that point, by all means do it. A good mech player is, contrary to popular Teamliquid-mechQQ-belief, almost impossible to beat. Remember that TL is generally about 3 weeks behind the top metagame so something to keep in mind I guess. -Void Ray All-In: Another good 1 base Stargate opener (noticing a pattern here?). Yes, SG play is the new go-to when in doubt, and has a lot of options. This is similar to the WoL version of the same build; you want to get a MSC (for mass recall if necessary and for time warp, a very useful spell) and a Stalker, get your SG and chrono out 2 Void rays, proxy a pylon, and make 3 extra gates. Yes, you can support 4 gates off of this, and if you're going to go all-in, go all-in. This is a lot stronger than in WoL, and is viable again, because of prismatic alignment. You hit the Terran's front door and use Prismatic Alignment to charge your Void Rays and bust down the bunkers. Use Sentries with Force Field and MSC's Time Warp thing to control space and movement of the Terran army and ensure that you can get your Zealots to close with his bio. -Blink Stalker/MSC 4 Gate: Same as the PvP version; it's probably better in PvT TBH, but still not as good as it used to be when it featured prominently in the metagame before the Blink Tech research time nerf. You want to keep Stalkers alive and keep him running back and forth while you expand or keep making more Stalkers if you think you might be able to break him. Watch out for Widow Mines! Remember they take like 40 seconds to re-arm, so watch the ingame timer and try to blink away from the suspected position before they re-arm. -Note on lategame: Mech is, as stated before, extremely strong when the player knows how to use it and why it is so good. It is not tank-based, which is why a lot of people still think it's bad. It's basically Thor, Viking, Hellbat, Widow Mine. Widow Mines 2-shot Immortals and 3-Shot Archons (they may actually 2-shot these now as well, but I don't think so). Hellbats beat Immortals AND Archons, for cost. Archons fare a bit better though because of bonus damage to bio. Don't even think about going Immortal against a mech player with a lot of Hellbats. They strip the shields almost instantly, so Terran doesn't really need ghosts; Hellbats do that duty now. Immortals take 7 shots to kill a single Hellbat, but against a solid number, they die before they get even 3 shots off. Widow Mines ignore hardened shields, which is why they do so well against the only ground units that should do well against mech. Hellbats also soft-counter Stalkers, because they are "light bio" and Stalkers don't do bonus damage. Your best option is mass Void Ray; Vikings are armored so VRs have bonus damage against them. You can't beat mech with ground units if he has the correct composition, so your best hope is to use VRs with CBed double upgrades (and shield upgrade, you need all the help you can get!) as your main army to harass and kill CCs, keeping Mothership Core with them to mass recall as soon as you get in trouble, while you have speed Warp Prisms and proxy pylons harass with DTs/Storm Drops/Chargelots (whatever you prefer) to try to pull him in different directions while your VR/MSC uses prismatic alignment to try to snipe expansions, workers, armories, tech labs, etc. The MechvProtoss is all but decided at the moment, and until Hellbats are changed you can't really win it on the ground against a player of equal or greater skill, so take to the skies and try to abuse the mobility granted by the Mothership Core and speed prisms to your advantage. Also, don't make the mistake of investing heavily into Tempests; they are VERY useful against Battlecruisers, Broodlords, and Carriers, and not very useful against much else. It's sometimes good to have a few (2-3) in an army to force engagements because they DO have good range, but that it doesn't usually come to that in PvT unless they go bio and you can keep observers alive. Stick to upgrades void rays and don't get into direct engagements until you have done all the harassing you can possibly do and he has all but shut it down; in that case, make a lot of Photon cannons, keep CBing shield upgrades and air upgrades and making VRs, and delay as best you can; in a direct engagement, remember that you can use time warp to kite units to a limited extent, and Void Rays have a leash range similar to Carriers, so abuse both things to your full advantage. PvZ PvZ openings come in two flavors, as in WoL; FFE and Gateway expands. You don't really need Sentries in the same way or in the same numbers you did in WoL because of the Mothership Core (more on that in a moment), so they are more viable and don't set you back as much. As such, it's hard to just say "here are some PvZ openers" because there really are only two, technically, each with a LOT of potential options. I'll give you a bit on FFE vs Gateway expand, and then just list some of the basic follow-ups that are currently effective. -Note on FFE vs. Gateway expands: Gateway expands are a lot more viable for two reasons; the MSC allows a lot more mobility with mass recall, allowing you to harass and do damage and still recall your units and save them, and the Photon overcharge also allows you to hold at your natural a lot better. Second, your tech-based harass is a lot more viable now early on; Oracles can do an INSANE amount of damage if left unchecked and DT tech is less gas intensive, so you have effective follow-ups that allow you to close the economy gap left by going 1 Gate expand, so do not be afraid to experiment. -DT Harass: Whether FFEing or Gate-expoing, DT harass is good against Zerg with the new Dark Shrine cost. Getting a Twilight immediately after your Core and then a shrine can get you in a good spot, provided you split your DTs and hit all 3 of his bases to tax his readiness and multitasking; after this, you would be well-advised to start Blink or Charge; there are some nice +2 pressures here; you can add a Robo and go for Immortal/Chargelot/Archon and all-in, or you can harass with Blink and MSC while simultaneously hitting with more DTs after the iniitial DT harass, and archons work well in conjunction with Blink Stalkers, too. -Stargate Opener: Like other matchups, this is very effective, and you can open with Oracle to hit workers/queens, or Phoenix for better scouting and the same goals as in WoL; pick off queens and a few drones, hunt ovies, and keep map control. Void Ray is also not terrible because of Prismatic Alignment and can add some punch to a moderate-strength pressure on his 3rd base; you should be able to get a queen and some drones before recalling away and taking a 3rd of your own. If going 1 base Stargate expand, you probably should go 3 Oracle, because you need to do some damage to catch up to a 3 base Zerg. Off of FFE, your SG comes later and as such, the Zerg probably has a good queen count or spore crawlers, rendering Oracles less effective with their paper armor, so Phoenix is probably your best option. They have 1 more range than they did in WoL, so they are a LOT more effective. Phoenixes work the same way as in WoL, but they work better! Also, remember that Mutalisks are both faster than in WoL and they have a better health regen, so they are insanely powerful. The only times I have lost to Zerg have been against GMs using mutalisks. Do NOT underestimate them; probably one of the best things about SG play is that you can get ~5 Phoenixes to discourage him from going Muta, and if he does, you can kite them AND keep tabs on their position, since they can bounce from base to base picking off probes, giving you the runaround, and then regenerating back to near-full-health only to do it all over again, and Blink Stalkers frankly can't keep up. Mothership Core's recall is essential in defending mutas, but once your MSC energy is low, you're shit-out-of-luck, so having a contingent of Phoenixes is so helpful. Against a heavy muta player, don't hesitate to get +1 Air Attack, and if he keeps making mutas, you may even think about a Fleet Beacon for + range and possibly adding another Stargate, but only really in the case of 25+ mutas, where you can't fight them with a ground army and they are in and out too quick for cannons to make much of a difference. Also, against Broodlord compositions, you have only to get a Fleet Beacon to get access to Tempests, which effectively shut down Broodlords HARD (thank Blizzard!). -Sentry/Immortal push: Yes, it's still good. And now, you can do it as a PRESSURE, a true push, instead of an all-in! Force him to make units and spines, and if you get in an iffy situation, recall and take a 3rd! Not a whole lot else to say here, fairly self-explanatory, except that this is a trend with most builds; you can do stronger timing pushes without being so terribly dedicated, as MSC allows you to recall your entire army if things start to slide downhill or if you need to deal with a counterattack promptly. Don't be afraid to move out, for as long as you have a MSC with energy, you are only 5 seconds from any of your bases! tl;dr? I don't blame you! Damn that was longer than I thought -_-v Just a basic rundown of some Protoss stuff in HotS, if you have any specific questions on a matchup or how to deal with a certain build or composition, feel free to PM me, I'm online playing HotS a lot. Best of luck, and nerf the Hellbat!! o_OV | ||
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xanatas
Germany49 Posts
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Cainam
United States421 Posts
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Laserath
United States19 Posts
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Don.681
Philippines189 Posts
I personally 12-scout vs T and Z and 14-scout vs P. Then at about 5:30 to six I poke some aggression depending on what I scout and have offensive warp-in ready if my opponent is greedy. My MCORE pops at 6:00-ish. Then I scout every 2 minutes. I think this is the best way to learn about the new metagame instead of asking what works for everybody else. Before we could dictate things with the colossus deathball, zealot archon etc --now we cant. | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
On February 11 2013 12:10 Don.681 wrote: This is actually a time to try out and invent new builds yourself. I don't plan any build and just scout and scout and try to be reactive. We now have free hallucinations. I personally 12-scout vs T and Z and 14-scout vs P. Then at about 5:30 to six I poke some aggression depending on what I scout and have offensive warp-in ready if my opponent is greedy. My MCORE pops at 6:00-ish. Then I scout every 2 minutes. I think this is the best way to learn about the new metagame instead of asking what works for everybody else. Before we could dictate things with the colossus deathball, zealot archon etc --now we cant. This is what I said or was trying to say. Free hallucination is sweet. Even if you only make one or two sentries early to hold pressure you can use them a little later to check for tech or greed or a weird timing attack. | ||
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SkaPunk
United States471 Posts
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Laserath
United States19 Posts
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
 .@skapunk: I see that you are going 3-Gate expand in PvZ; if you don't like FFE and prefer Gateway expanding, you may want to consider expanding off of 1 Gateway instead of 3. With the Mothership Core's Photon Overcharge ability, it's a lot easier to defend early pressure with 1 or 2 Sentries at your natural, meaning you can get both your Nexus up quicker to boost your economy and get your tech up to have a faster DT or Oracle harass, or faster Robo units if that's the route you choose to go. I think against standard Zerg builds, anything but the most aggressive of wacky openers, you can hold with a reasonable amount of skill off of 1 Gateway, given you get your Mothership Core up as soon as possible to start gaining energy for Photon Overcharge and you get around 2 Sentries as soon as you can; usually you should grab 1 before you get your Stalker to run any Ovies out of your base, but this depends; against 3 Hatch before gas I get the Stalker first because I know I'm probably safe and no pressure is imminent; if he's still on 2 base I grab 2 Sentries before my Stalker. | ||
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xHadoken
United States171 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
Other than that, great guide. I'd also add that if it's 2 or mote base stargate agaisnt 2 or more base stargate the guy that gets range first will have quite a serious advantage until his opponent gets range as well. I've found the phoenix range upgrade is becoming a staple of stargate vs stargate in hots. Edit: also your PvT advice is great. Phoenixes are FANTASTIC against drop play. | ||
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
You are right, though, the range upgrade is essential in Phoenix vs Phoenix fights, and you should ALWAYS get it in 2 Stargate situations where you build Phoenix, this is a given. However, if you have to economize and choose between +1 Air Attack and Anion Pulse Crystal, always get +1 Air Attack first; Phoenix Range is an all-in-one upgrade, but getting +1 Air weapons first not only gives you a one-time boost, but makes your subsequent +2 and +3 air weapons quicker, compounding your advantage, so air weapons and air armor upgrades should come first. For the exact same reason, upon getting the Fleet Beacon in Phoenix v Phoenix (assuming you already have +1), you should get +2 Air weapons before you get range if you have to choose. Also remember that Phoenixes are basically the fastest units in the game, so the range advantage is negated pretty quickly since if they aren't HEAVILY kiting and extremely good with micro (remember, vanilla Phoenixes are range 6 and upgraded Phoenix are range 7, only a 1 range difference), then there will only be a very difficult to kite 1 range difference, so situations where only one group is firing will be very rare and generally the group with +1 attack will beat out the group with range unless you both have godlike micro. tldr; always prioritize cybernetics core upgrades in phoenix mirror situations, because they lead to higher upgrades, and you can always grab phoenix range. | ||
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