Hey guys with the coming of the new patch I decided to stay up tonight and test out the new burrow timings with a bunch of early roach pushes to help out those curious and the tiny swarmlings out there that need good early builds in HOTS. I will add more tomorrow every replay is casted and commentated by me to explain my thoughts. (The background mic stuff is a little loud I will turn it down next time but if you turn the volume down you can hear me I think pretty clear just fuzz that I didn't hear till I was done) Tomorrow I will also be streaming all day after probably 3pm Eastern time. So if you want to see more fun hots stuff with burrow and just play in general check it out or just come back here for more videos.
Little about myself I am a 21 year old Full time Zerg player I top out my Masters Division atm and have been GM in Hots. I have competed against the best at 4 different MLGs and I stream quite a bit when I can. I try to put out stuff whenever I can to help out others and if you decide to come check out my stream I answer all chat questions and I can't wait to get more hots in this change is awesome and I can't wait for tomorrow to try out some burrow bane zvz lol.
I seems to me that alot of these pushes work without roach burrow being needed that much Nice experimentation though.
I cant see it working vs toss due to the fact if they see no third they can just build more cannons which for some reason non of them did.
Against t it could work due to roaches not being a bad thing to get for denying hellions. Although in the example he was going mass blueflame which is kinda hard countered by a roach push anyway so its hard to say.
Against z its also hard to say as the example you gave was a zerg that didnt even stop the roaches nevermind burrow.
On January 18 2013 21:00 TheMooseHeed wrote: I seems to me that alot of these pushes work without roach burrow being needed that much Nice experimentation though.
I cant see it working vs toss due to the fact if they see no third they can just build more cannons which for some reason non of them did.
Against t it could work due to roaches not being a bad thing to get for denying hellions. Although in the example he was going mass blueflame which is kinda hard countered by a roach push anyway so its hard to say.
Against z its also hard to say as the example you gave was a zerg that didnt even stop the roaches nevermind burrow.
Moar replays! ^^
Have to agree with this, give some more examples of it working, release a replay pack, or ask someone at a high level if they can do it for you and see if it works.
all you seem to be doing is roach rushing, and using the burrow to heal your roaches... seems like you'd get mostly the same results without burrow, and have more roaches quicker...
After trying this for a bit, my thoughts: -I could be a good build in ZvT. In other matchups I'd forget about it since you're better off with a simple roach/ling (could be wrong).
-I think skipping zergling speed is a bad idea. Reinforcing with lings, coupled with the ability to save roaches makes this type of attack really good. Make them re-emerge when lings arrive in reinforcement.
-Transitions can be interesting. Drop + burrow is always cool, I think it's a good idea against Mech. Swarm hosts drops are also hilarious, something I suspect meching players will find out soon. I would like to try a 3 base swarm hosts/roach/ling siege with drop researched (edit: never mind I thought swarm hosts were decent against mech but after testing more it seems they really aren't). Against a bio player I make a baneling nest, +1/+1 (melee), a Lair, and go Mutas, with baneling landmines of course
Edit: after further testing I'm still not convinced it's worth it, but it could be. I won a lot, but no game where I thought burrow was the difference maker. I think it's better to just get more army units.
In the end what I was doing was some version of Stephano's roach/baneling attack (the most economical version) with burrow. It can be cool, actually. In WoL I'd very often kill everything in the natural... only to have to go back (often while getting hit by a banshee). In HotS you can stay, and deny the natural much longer. Burrow makes your attack more efficient (your roaches will survive; you'll lose only your lings). After he lifts his natural you can burrow a ling under it... and when he scans to kill it you can come back with your army. Burrow also helps you if he counterattacks, or if he uses banshees. Worth 100 gas? We'll see.
On January 18 2013 20:41 Existor wrote: Hope you'll like it. Free to use Banner and full art (based on two other arts)
Those are very cool thanks a ton!
On January 18 2013 21:00 TheMooseHeed wrote: I seems to me that alot of these pushes work without roach burrow being needed that much Nice experimentation though.
I cant see it working vs toss due to the fact if they see no third they can just build more cannons which for some reason non of them did.
Against t it could work due to roaches not being a bad thing to get for denying hellions. Although in the example he was going mass blueflame which is kinda hard countered by a roach push anyway so its hard to say.
Against z its also hard to say as the example you gave was a zerg that didnt even stop the roaches nevermind burrow.
Moar replays! ^^
I will defiantly be giving more replays today these were just my firsts nights and I wanted to get them up. I think against toss it is still viable while they really didn't get enough cannons up like they should 100% of Toss decide to put cannons up sometimes people get surprised (just like with the normal not burrow push) This push can be done without burrow but that isn't the point I think I showed in the the Terran game and the Toss games about the staying power of them. The terran game if those were non burrow roaches the push would have been in trouble with those mines I would have still done a ton of dmg but it would not have been game ending I believe and he would have not wasted a scan when he put his last expo down (which should not be normal i know)
Idk what happened with the zerg thought he'd be ready but just didn't haha. I will like I said post more tonight be looking for them!
On January 18 2013 21:56 baldgye wrote: all you seem to be doing is roach rushing, and using the burrow to heal your roaches... seems like you'd get mostly the same results without burrow, and have more roaches quicker...
The roach push with burrow I was doing last night was only about a minute later than just a 7 roach rush DRG style. And these are just experimental builds not fully optimized yet+ I am leave base with 9-10 roaches not 7.
On January 18 2013 22:36 MilesTeg wrote: After trying this for a bit, my thoughts: -I could be a good build in ZvT. In other matchups I'd forget about it since you're better off with a simple roach/ling (could be wrong).
-I think skipping zergling speed is a bad idea. Reinforcing with lings, coupled with the ability to save roaches makes this type of attack really good. Make them re-emerge when lings arrive in reinforcement.
-Transitions can be interesting. Drop + burrow is always cool, I think it's a good idea against Mech. Swarm hosts drops are also hilarious, something I suspect meching players will find out soon. I would like to try a 3 base swarm hosts/roach/ling siege with drop researched (edit: never mind I thought swarm hosts were decent against mech but after testing more it seems they really aren't). Against a bio player I make a baneling nest, +1/+1 (melee), a Lair, and go Mutas, with baneling landmines of course
Edit: after further testing I'm still not convinced it's worth it, but it could be. I won a lot, but no game where I thought burrow was the difference maker. I think it's better to just get more army units.
In the end what I was doing was some version of Stephano's roach/baneling attack (the most economical version) with burrow. It can be cool, actually. In WoL I'd very often kill everything in the natural... only to have to go back (often while getting hit by a banshee). In HotS you can stay, and deny the natural much longer. Burrow makes your attack more efficient (your roaches will survive; you'll lose only your lings). After he lifts his natural you can burrow a ling under it... and when he scans to kill it you can come back with your army. Burrow also helps you if he counterattacks, or if he uses banshees. Worth 100 gas? We'll see.
Well the idea isn't to be killing your opponent if you want to kill him sure screw burrow and go a ton of units just like a lot of attacks in WOL. But with burrow you now open yourself up to other options. Your roaches you attack with stay alive longer, kill more (more cost effective), and you now have the ability to burrow drones/banelings should have be able to counter attack after it. Then after that it opens up more timings at lair with burrow infestors and think about this going double roach warren burrow move+speed. You already have burrow that might be a cool transition. Like you said you just delay him longer as well I defiantly think if your going this build it has been worth it so far for me. BUT like I said this is first days testing with more to come.
On January 18 2013 23:07 KadaverBB wrote: Edited the title, come on man
just thinking about it, the only way to make this work any diffrent to a roach rush thats late would be to use the roaches to snipe the cannons/forge and then burrow them where the P wanted to wall off... and then go heavy lings...
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
yeah, but instead of just randomly burrowing your units where ever they happen to be, would be more to your advantage to burrow in the places where he'd want to wall... then you wouldn't need to tech to anything else and be able to kill him with speed lings...
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
yeah, but instead of just randomly burrowing your units where ever they happen to be, would be more to your advantage to burrow in the places where he'd want to wall... then you wouldn't need to tech to anything else and be able to kill him with speed lings...
Well not every build is designed to win a game out right some are only to do damage and transition and most are in SC2. It can be certainly a killing move and like you said that is a way I never said it wasn't but doing reliable damage and transitioning is a better way to play.
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
yeah, but instead of just randomly burrowing your units where ever they happen to be, would be more to your advantage to burrow in the places where he'd want to wall... then you wouldn't need to tech to anything else and be able to kill him with speed lings...
Well not every build is designed to win a game out right some are only to do damage and transition and most are in SC2. It can be certainly a killing move and like you said that is a way I never said it wasn't but doing reliable damage and transitioning is a better way to play.
just seems kinda pointless to do a super early rush build and then hinder it by not doing as much as you possibly can incase you kill him in the process....
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
yeah, but instead of just randomly burrowing your units where ever they happen to be, would be more to your advantage to burrow in the places where he'd want to wall... then you wouldn't need to tech to anything else and be able to kill him with speed lings...
Well not every build is designed to win a game out right some are only to do damage and transition and most are in SC2. It can be certainly a killing move and like you said that is a way I never said it wasn't but doing reliable damage and transitioning is a better way to play.
just seems kinda pointless to do a super early rush build and then hinder it by not doing as much as you possibly can incase you kill him in the process....
In WOL the 7 roach rush was also never ment to kill your opponent it sometimes will. But roach rushes and follow up attack can be held off and when that happens if you were not transitioning behind it and trying to further allin many times it will result in a loss. Just doing good damage and harassing with burrow is much more reliable than going allin the whole way. With burrow now you also give yourself an out if things are not going well burrow gives another possibility that this attack works just because of lack of detection and it allows you to burrow regen and get away should he be too defended.
On January 19 2013 06:18 Hamzerglar wrote: Do people think more people agree with them when they end a condescending statement in "...."? Pet peeve.
That being said I just wanted to say how much I love early burrow. At a Plat level it has been rage inducing for my opponents a few times already
I'm interested to see this strategy in more ZvZs!
These are defiantly incoming I'm just trying to think of other ways to approach it than I did because I don't think that one can be counted on to do damage and that is what I want these to be if anything else reliable.
Any protoss who does a forge FE you can try to proxy a hatchery in their base. Even if only 1 larva is spawned from the hatchery it means they have to deal with a burrow roach with no stalkers for a long time. Or they pull 4 or more probes early on to deal with a proxy hatch. Or they build cannons and you can just break the front. I had a lot of fun with this.
but I just don't really see how this is any better than a standard roach rush, other than being more annoying...
That's the idea.
It's more annoying because it can be more cost effective and lasts longer both of which buy you time at home to take your third, Drone, and/or tech regular roach rushes can be shutdown fast and hard by opponents who prepare well with this I believe even if they do burrow forces out mobile detection before they can ever think about doing anything.
yeah, but instead of just randomly burrowing your units where ever they happen to be, would be more to your advantage to burrow in the places where he'd want to wall... then you wouldn't need to tech to anything else and be able to kill him with speed lings...
Genius. if you can keep his wall open speedlings are the way to go. what I'd like to see is what happens when you get scouted and transition to a defensive footing. ie, he throws down another cannon and chronos out sentries while building up to a gateway push. are there good ways to utilize burrow for a defense while plaything from slightly behind?
...Cool but this is not really something that people wouldn't be able to figure out on there own lol.
I'm sorry but I really don't like it when people do a build that probably 75% + of Zerg's are going to be doing or trying at least once by default due to burrow being at tier 1 now, and then name it after themselves for the sole purpose of trying to grab attention...Why is it whenever someone does a build that has already been done and is not even that creative, they feel the need to name it "My build" , then post there stream link.
gl hf but just because you do a build doesn't mean YOU invented it or it is YOURS, no offense but there is too many people saying a build they did before on ladder is 100% theres and created by them. gl hf gg
On January 19 2013 14:18 ElMeanYo wrote: Hey Cajun, props to you for coming up with this build and providing the videos. Nice to watch from a lower level zerg... I'm going to try these.
Maybe not optimal rush but who cares? The beta is all about trying new stuff right? GG
Thanks man these are ment just for you if I help one person it is worth my time. I will post more later as I optimize make sure you watch todays videos too the builds worked better
On January 19 2013 14:27 GGzerG wrote: ...Cool but this is not really something that people wouldn't be able to figure out on there own lol.
I'm sorry but I really don't like it when people do a build that probably 75% + of Zerg's are going to be doing or trying at least once by default due to burrow being at tier 1 now, and then name it after themselves for the sole purpose of trying to grab attention...Why is it whenever someone does a build that has already been done and is not even that creative, they feel the need to name it "My build" , then post there stream link.
gl hf but just because you do a build doesn't mean YOU invented it or it is YOURS, no offense but there is too many people saying a build they did before on ladder is 100% theres and created by them. gl hf gg
Hey guys few people wanted the exact build here is one of them and I will do video on it!
(taken from one of the ZvP games they change slightly with each match up very slightly)
14 Pool 16 Hatch 16 Ovi 16 Queen 20 1st Gas 2nd Queen when the first one is done! and only 1 set of lings when ovi pops with your first 100 Gas get burrow @5:30 get your Roach Warren @5:50 2nd Gas (2 in this one) get a few more drones bout 6-7 at nat and get to bout 54 Supply total for room for roaches add 1 more if you add more drones) 8-10 roaches soon as your RW pops and move with at least 8 together.
After you start the attack I drone behind it take the rest of gases (remember to add 3rd to 2nd gas) and either go muta or expo and play from a more normal infestor style(or w/e depending on matchup)
On January 29 2013 06:12 neoghaleon55 wrote: more videos, cajunman! I've been waiting for weeks for more burroach action!
I definatly will please keep looking for them unfortunately I have been doing a lot of moving so I haven't been able too hopefully when I'm fully settled I'll be back in business.
I'll watch all these when I get home from work . Data allowance on my phone is running low sadly !
Towards the end of WoL I was trying a 2 base roach push with speed and +1 , I got it down pretty well , got around 12-14 roach out pretty dam quick (can't remember the time) and all the timings (+1 and speed) matched up nicely. Now though with early burrow I did the same kinda build but with burrow instead of +1 , it won me the match (ZvT) , but I'm thinking now , burrow movement , would be better than speed maybe , could add the element of surprise and sneak up on any tanks , with a lair 1st you can also get an overseer out for widow mines , problem is keeping reapers at bay till then .... Hmmmm lol.
Fking live HoTS , so much testing to be done ! There is gonna be some seriously random shit flyin out in matches for a few months
Definitely agree with you that these roach pushes are great openers, and burrow is such a nice upgrade. Your Burroach ZvT is very similar to the build I use, going to be a lot of fun to play with
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FIEQ5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tASm9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wmeE9.jpg)
Nice experimentation though. 
