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On January 19 2013 00:59 summerloud wrote:
i dont think the timer is final, its prolly just a placeholder until they come up with a more elegant solution
while i can agree with voids being 4 supply i dislike the direction to even smaller armies, id be all for increasing the supply cap to 230 or 250 in order to push back the moment of maxing out a little bit
Protoss having the smallest armies fits the flavor of the race though. And Voids cost per supply was stupidly high before, way higher than even capital ships. 4 supply makes more sense for them, and makes them less useful when you just decide to mass them into a deathball.
I do agree a higher supply cap could be good though, if only because it would add more benfit to taking more than 3 bases, and the more people spread out across many bases across the map the more multitask and splitting your forces to engage at different points becomes important. Keeping your entire force in one bigass deathball leaves you more and more vulnerable to counterattack the more bases there are.
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I think Void rays are going entirely the wrong way, and have been for a while. With the superbeam on demand, they are way too general purpose and strong. It is probably better to remove them imo. Carriers should be the go-to general purpose Protoss air choice.
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Personally, while i didn't realize that they gained 8 range while charged i always thought that the reason why people don't pull back, myself included, is because when i engage mid game with like a roach/hydra push i am doing that push because it is a timing type push. i just finished speed/+1 w/e and i need to push before the tech of protoss gets to much for my roach/hydra. So if i engage and pull back then that is giving him a lot more time to get out a few more void rays or a round of gateway units, and if he does get a few more voids out then they will have the charge up ability as well.
That is why i never pull back, my push almost always requires me to deal damage so i have to engage at some point whether he is charged or not.
I also havn't seen the timer yet  So i can't really comment on that but i don't really mind how the void rays are currently, but late game skytoss is unbeatable for me as a zerg. (I don't know if other zergs have found out how to beat it ) So any sort of nerf to it is good in my personal opinion.
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On January 19 2013 01:47 UltiBahamut wrote:
Personally, while i didn't realize that they gained 8 range while charged i always thought that the reason why people don't pull back, myself included, is because when i engage mid game with like a roach/hydra push i am doing that push because it is a timing type push. i just finished speed/+1 w/e and i need to push before the tech of protoss gets to much for my roach/hydra. So if i engage and pull back then that is giving him a lot more time to get out a few more void rays or a round of gateway units, and if he does get a few more voids out then they will have the charge up ability as well.
That is why i never pull back, my push almost always requires me to deal damage so i have to engage at some point whether he is charged or not.
Void Ray charge lasts 20 seconds and has a cooldown of 60 seconds. It takes a Void 60 seconds to build, 40 seconds with chrono. So if you pull back when charge is triggered and rengage when it wears off, around 20 seconds will have passed, which isn't enough time for even one more Void to be built. At that point you'll have about a minute where he doesn't have charge, and even if another Void does finish in that time it will still need to fly over to reinforce. I think you're overestimating how much Protoss is able to do in the 20 seconds that you disengage while he's charged.
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i like what OneGoal did with the voidray by making it a zoning unit.
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I wish they would revert all the changes they made to the Voidray. Personally I liked the idea of having a unit that does overkill but not in the regular way, so the micro to prevent this overkill (Voidray not charging) was fairly unique. And I found it fairly easy to charge Voidrays in Wings. On the other hand Voidrays in Wings are overpowered, so this might be why I liked them so much.
Supply wise (the 3 supply) nothing could really beat them except if you clumped against AoEs or had tons of Marines in your army (Zerg ones included).
The charge on a button, for me was a nerf alongside with making this unit boring. Also can't understand the timer as it was really easy to see if they are charged.
Always said they are a 4 supply unit so nothing suprising for me and better then changing anything else on them.
For the extended range. Yes I think Blizzard forgot about this, with simple Voidray move (not a-move) micro you can keep the opponent for ages in range before they are able to leave it. So retreating medium speed units will get you alot of losses.
But removing it without buffing them would not work as range 6 is to low for this slow air unit. Vikings would be having a field day against them. Phoenix could even kite them. Corrupters could blob up and hit and run, while Fungal prevents Voids from doing the same.
Also Voids are supposed to counter Corrupters, so building Corrupters against Voids should only work if you can outmass them before they get their critical mass.
In any case I would prefer the extended Range over a flat range of 7. It works really well together with the front mounted attack of it making it an offensive air unit that wants to be as close as possible. While the Carrier does the opposite in attacking and staying on max range.
For me the Voidray is slowly becoming a second Corruptor. A unit where you have to press a button when they fight to increase their damage. (like corruption)
But this is more a result of the majority paying more attention to macro instead of micro. So Blizzard will have to adapt the micro units to be easier to control.
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On January 18 2013 22:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Void Rays are still way way way too strong against stalkers, which has the side effect of making anything but "making more void rays than the other guy" be a losing strategy in PvP.
Something like the proposed change would help, but the damage really needs to be addressed. I feel like we did this in WoL already...lol
Stalkers are just terribly weak units. Mutas crush them even.
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In every matchup if you deathball fight, and you try to leave the fight; you just end up losing a little while later because you take so much damage trying to disengage thanks to the liquidlike movement of armies. Critical mass games occur too often in sc2.
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I really don't like the timer. Maybe add an animation if the ability is ready, the timer is lame. As for the extended range I'm afraid it's quite needed for the current design to work otherwise it'll be too easy to dodge that charge up time. Maybe reducing the cooldown of the ability will make it work .. I'm not sure.
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On January 19 2013 04:27 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 22:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Void Rays are still way way way too strong against stalkers, which has the side effect of making anything but "making more void rays than the other guy" be a losing strategy in PvP.
Something like the proposed change would help, but the damage really needs to be addressed. I feel like we did this in WoL already...lol Stalkers are just terribly weak units. Mutas crush them even.
Yeah, but it's the only Protoss option for AA until Archons, and even Archons suck against Void Rays. Before Void Rays got their super armor melting beam of amazeballs, stalkers would actually be able to defend find against Void Rays cost effectively. Now, though, the fights are always HEAVILY in favor of the Void Rays unless you outnumber the ever loving crap out of the Void Rays. This is definitely possible in the early part of the game before too many Void Rays are out, but later on it's just not practical. This makes anything other than Stargate play almost an auto loss.
On January 19 2013 04:51 i)awn wrote:
I really don't like the timer. Maybe add an animation if the ability is ready, the timer is lame. As for the extended range I'm afraid it's quite needed for the current design to work otherwise it'll be too easy to dodge that charge up time. Maybe reducing the cooldown of the ability will make it work .. I'm not sure.
Yeah, I wish it would turn the beam red or something. It would still be obvious, without looking stupid like a timer above the unit.
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I think flatting the range to 6 may just lead to useless old void rays. You engage with roaches, voids charge up and you retreat. Now what? It's over. Not much an interesting and intensive micro battle.
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Previously, Void Rays cost 84 minerals and 50 gas per 1 supply...which was much higher than even capital ships, and in mineral cost per supply was actually the highest in the game.
Wrong!! Ghosts and Banelings cost 100M / 50G per 1 supply.
Other than that I am not so sure about your idea, I see no major harm in it, so I would like to see how it affects hit and run away until the cooldown hits tactics. But I don't think its necessary, since Void Rays are fairly slow, unlike Marines and Marauders (who have a similar mechanic).
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On January 19 2013 05:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Yeah, I wish it would turn the beam red or something. It would still be obvious, without looking stupid like a timer above the unit.
Or that the animation is the current fully charged version of the Void rays attack, while the normal attack looks like the middle (the actual weapon) beam only. The animation are already in game and its pretty easy to see the difference.
On January 19 2013 05:49 mantequilla wrote:
I think flatting the range to 6 may just lead to useless old void rays. You engage with roaches, voids charge up and you retreat. Now what? It's over. Not much an interesting and intensive micro battle.
Not entirely roaches and rays got the same speed so when your retreating the rays should atleast be able to pick off the roaches at the end, and if they can cut off the roaches a bit even a couple more. But you might be on something do, if the leach range is removed it could lose a lot of his damage and potential when the ability is on cooldown on faster moving units. Rays where always a good unit to snipe of some extra units when the enemy is retreating even in WoL. The rays damage is for his cost not extremely high outside of his cd and with nerfing the leach range you are indirect nerfing the damage outside of the cooldown too. I think a solution should be found with the ability and not the the supply/leach range of the Void ray.
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EPT
