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I find the medivac boost interesting. It allows a medivac to get into a mineral line or by static AA so quickly. But at the same time, the ability has room for tweaking to make it more tactical. I think that while boosted, the medivac should take something like +2 dmg per hit. Or something. Numbers are easy to balance. If that makes it too weak, then decrease cooldown, or increase duration. Risk/Reward is always good if balanced properly.
The WarpGate is a good example of poorly implemented risk/reward. I think it should be redesigned. It might be a little late for this though.
Meh, something like toss units are warped in with no shield, but with immediately recharging shields with temporary (re)generation boost, in addition to reworking toss ground to be not so freakin' weak. That way, Warping in can be highly rewarding due to the nature of reinforcement nearly anywhere, but if caught warping in carelessly, the toss player can lose all his forces. This also means that players must weigh the benefits of having normal gateways vs warp gate. Normal gateways produce units with full shield, but take longer (balance tweaked).
Very Very late into SC2 to do a major redesign though.
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It's the same as blink. The choice is how you use it, not necessarily what the drawback is
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On December 29 2012 11:04 phfantunes wrote:
I don't have HotS beta, but as a spectator, from watching streams, I'm not impressed at all with the ability. It doesn't seem to impact gameplay that much and Thieving Magpie hit the spot, imo, on why it's a bad ability because it doesn't promote much choice.
I don't even see it as being all that necessary. In BW, Scourge were the perfect counter to drops and they still had their place. With the new Medivac heal, once you do manage to unload, drops are so ridiculously strong that I'm not really sure the Medivac being uncatchable for 8 sec and pretty much garanteed to be able to drop is a good thing.
Lastly, imo drops are supposed to be just the icing on the cake, an extra option of gameplay, a tactic to allow superior players to strain their opponent's multitasking or even a way for someone behind to claw back into the game. With these changes (speed + uber heal), I'm afraid that Terran might be forced even more to do damage in the early/midgame to be on par in the lategame. Protoss and Zerg drops didn't receive any buffs, whereas Terran - the race that was, in general, already pressed in WoL to be the agressor - did, further reinforcing this (bad) aspect of the race and thus being balanced around it.
It's not like we're given the choice between being the aggressor and not. The way the game is already coming about, Terran NEEDS this ability or there may be no options left.
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Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it.
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On December 29 2012 16:37 DuaneDibly wrote:
Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it.
wheres the tradeoff for warpgate/blink?
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On December 29 2012 16:40 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 16:37 DuaneDibly wrote:
Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it. wheres the tradeoff for warpgate/blink?
He MUST BE joking, because no one in their right mind would consider an energy cost of 75 a reasonable price for a short boost. If you could "turboboost" anywhere on the map with that in about 5 seconds it might be reasonable, but such an ability would be a tad overpowered ... just a teeenie weenie bit.
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I'm not sure about this...but has anyone taken into account the medivac healing upgrades in conjunction with this? because the medivac healing upgrade is quite big....is it even possible to kill marauders or marines with zealots anymore even on equal upgrades? I haven't tested this...but just a thought that I really think should be taken into account
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On December 29 2012 16:56 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 16:40 Sadist wrote:On December 29 2012 16:37 DuaneDibly wrote:
Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it. wheres the tradeoff for warpgate/blink? He MUST BE joking, because no one in their right mind would consider an energy cost of 75 a reasonable price for a short boost. If you could "turboboost" anywhere on the map with that in about 5 seconds it might be reasonable, but such an ability would be a tad overpowered ... just a teeenie weenie bit.
I don't know if he's joking or if he's retarded or completely biased...but 75 energy is way too much lol
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On December 24 2012 04:23 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 03:57 juicyjames wrote:On December 24 2012 03:48 Rainling wrote:
Completely agree with Thieving Magpie, even Avilo agrees with giving speed boost an energy cost. It seems like a no-brainer to give a spell drawbacks so players aren't constantly casting it. An energy cost would make choosing to use speed boost much more of a tactical choice, because players have to choose between using energy for healing and using it for the speed boost. I really hope Blizzard plans on testing this. Agreed. It feels like this ability should've had an energy cost from the start, I'm surprised blizz chose to make it Cooldown in the first place.
It should be a cooldown with energy cost.
This is to avoid them boosting to prevent feedback
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On December 29 2012 17:16 Hopelessnoob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:23 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 03:57 juicyjames wrote:On December 24 2012 03:48 Rainling wrote:
Completely agree with Thieving Magpie, even Avilo agrees with giving speed boost an energy cost. It seems like a no-brainer to give a spell drawbacks so players aren't constantly casting it. An energy cost would make choosing to use speed boost much more of a tactical choice, because players have to choose between using energy for healing and using it for the speed boost. I really hope Blizzard plans on testing this. Agreed. It feels like this ability should've had an energy cost from the start, I'm surprised blizz chose to make it Cooldown in the first place. It should be a cooldown with energy cost. This is to avoid them boosting to prevent feedback
Sure but only after changing the high templar and infestor to have cooldowns on their spells as well.
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The medivac buff is nothing short of essential. Terran could use some more diversity in units and abilities.
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Sure but only after changing the high templar and infestor to have cooldowns on their spells as well.
+1 for this guy. I don't understand why everyone wants to put a cooldown on it, when most spells don't have a cooldown
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The Medivac needed a buff since protoss new defensive capabilities (Mothership Core, Photon Overcharge) made drops worse, the Medivac heal buff is too make bio stronger lategame. Both we're needed, although i would rather have seen blizzard fix mech. Maybe the cd for the spell should be a little longer, maybe it should cost a little mana, but it needs to stay.
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Sometimes units don't need "choice". The only reason that upgrade and that speed boost are in place is because people have become very efficient at dealing with drops, much more so than they used to.
Medivacs needed a buff. Protoss don't need a buff, they already got their buff ages ago since Warp Prisms survive about twice as long and are far faster. Zerg definitely don't need a mobility buff.
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I think its fine as it is right now.
It feels like fresh air for a Terran.
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On December 29 2012 17:16 Cloudshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 16:56 Rabiator wrote:On December 29 2012 16:40 Sadist wrote:On December 29 2012 16:37 DuaneDibly wrote:
Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it. wheres the tradeoff for warpgate/blink? He MUST BE joking, because no one in their right mind would consider an energy cost of 75 a reasonable price for a short boost. If you could "turboboost" anywhere on the map with that in about 5 seconds it might be reasonable, but such an ability would be a tad overpowered ... just a teeenie weenie bit. I don't know if he's joking or if he's retarded or completely biased...but 75 energy is way too much lol
"Joking" is the most polite way to describe it ... so I went for that one.
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I believe some changes need to be made for it to be more balanced. I myself would like if the healing and drop ability is disabled during the boost period. This will force people to at least time when to use the boost or not.
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The speed boost is absolutely overpowered, and so is the upgraded healing. Problem is, everything else terran gets this expansion is gimmicky and/or borderline viable. Boosting around in medivacs is the only thing that makes me go "holy shit, this is really awesome".
As much as I would love them to fix mech, instead they keep nerfing it and overall don't seem to have a clue how to make it viable. So instead terrans will mass bio even more and abuse the medivac to win games against P/Z opponents who now have much more choices in viable units. If you want terran to keep winning games and make them a viable race, the OP medivac seems like a necessary evil.
Now that I think of it, medivacs feel like the crutch that infestors are to zerg in WOL right now. They have 3 months to fix this, but I have to admit I don't have very high hopes.
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On December 30 2012 01:58 Bagi wrote:
The speed boost is absolutely overpowered, and so is the upgraded healing. Problem is, everything else terran gets this expansion is gimmicky and/or borderline viable. Boosting around in medivacs is the only thing that makes me go "holy shit, this is really awesome".
As much as I would love them to fix mech, instead they keep nerfing it and overall don't seem to have a clue how to make it viable. So instead terrans will mass bio even more and abuse the medivac to win games against P/Z opponents who now have much more choices in viable units. If you want terran to keep winning games and make them a viable race, the OP medivac seems like a necessary evil.
Now that I think of it, medivacs feel like the crutch that infestors are to zerg in WOL right now. They have 3 months to fix this, but I have to admit I don't have very high hopes.
The healing boost is not overpowered because of the fact that you need a fusion core and a techlab starport to get it. It is a much needed lategame upgrade for bio.
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On December 29 2012 16:40 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 16:37 DuaneDibly wrote:
Yeah i like the ability costing energy, make it a baseline ability but make speed boost cost about 75 energy, needs to be some sort of trade off for using it. wheres the tradeoff for warpgate/blink?
Okay, I'm a bit tired of these types of comments.
Blink is not a straight up upgrade tactically, but a necessary upgrade to give back the tactical advantage the Stalker used to have during the early stages of the game.
Pre-Metabolic Boost and Pre-Conc Shell stalker pokes and stalker patrols keeps watchtowers and map presence to a minimum. It outranges everything and outruns everything. Then, once Zerg gets speed or Terran gets Stim/Conc, the stalker loses the advantage it had and becomes a sub-par ranged unit. Forcefields becomes the main form of field presence that Protoss has preventing both frontal assaults and threatening siege breaks.
We enter the midgame and blink becomes available. Once blink is researched, Stalkers once again gain back the advantage they previously had. It cost both minerals and gas to get as well as needs the research time to get. But more importantly, it's an ability to return the Stalker back to its initial position during the early game of a mobile field harasser.
More importantly, it's an ability that specifically allows stalkers to fight against the upgrades that previously crippled it. Speed, Conc, Stime, etc... go from being direct counters to Stalkers into soft counters at best. (assuming good Stalker control)
The medivac speed upgrade does not give it the ability to do anything different. It only improves drop play whether it is getting to a drop location faster or whether it is escaping faster. It's not like the boost now allows drop play to be possible or the boost allows you to circumvent defenses previously effective versus drop play. Nor does it allow the medivac to do cool shit. It's a cooldown spell much like corrupt.
I don't think it's an OP spell, if they buffed it I'd be even fine with it. I just want a better, more flexible implementation of the spell.
For example, imagine if it costs energy to boost, but didn't have a cooldown. Sure, boosting it around a lot would make it seem unstoppable--but you won't be able to heal your marines. But suddenly mech drops become something actually interesting. Doing thor harass akin to reaver strikes and being able to escape due to constant speed boosting? Hellion drops having a different flavor compared to bio drops since bio drops needs the energy to heal units you can be more liberal with your energy uses when doing hellion drops, you can use it to "counter" feedback defenses, allow your army to be more mobile as you use fast medivacs to actually ferry your troops around the map since it will be faster than walking so long as you micro.
The point is not about nerfing it, I don't think it's too powerful at all. The point is that it would be more interesting if it was flexible and provided choice. Right now its really only useful for drops. That's it. Because its a cooldown you really can only afford to use it at "the right time" and the only time that is present is when you're doing drops. But what if we made it more powerful while giving it a drawback? Suddenly we can start using the ability to more aggressively, more often, and there will suddenly be a big difference between people who knows how to manage their medivacs versus those who simply spam the cooldown/burn the energy.
But it doesn't even have to cost energy! The cooldown could be longer, but give it something other than a speedboost (someone suggested instant unload similar to the bunker dropping the entire squad out at once instead of one at a time) to increase DPS upon arrival. Suddenly there is a tactical choice between using the boost early (DPS) or for using the boost later (escaping)
You could double the speed boost increase but force a full stop as the engine is taxed too much, in which case you need to accelerate again.
You could simply improve the current speedboost to give more incentive to use it early so that when people use it to escape it is a choice they make. Like, imagine if the speedboost also gave a temporary armor boost? That way people don't simply turn it on when dropping/retreating but also during engagements when they notice stalkers focus firing the medivacs.
There's a lot of ways to buff/change/nerf the ability until it gets exciting. The point should not be about nerfing/buffing it but the point should be to find a way to make it allow for interesting play.
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EPT
