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United States4883 Posts
[D] Widow Mines, Tanks, and Space Control
Introduction: I've been reading through the threads and comments on the widow mine, especially regarding the new patch. A lot of players are complaining about the viability and even questioning the function of widow mines. In fact, a lot of people are outraged. Therefore, I decided to write up this discussion on how terran space control is being treated in HotS, and the things I think Blizzard really should look into.
1) Siege Tank damage:
+ Show Spoiler + I'm sure everyone was just as surprised as I was in the past few patches (8, 9, and 10) by the odd changes to the raven and the widow mine. In addition, I was really surprised that the tank didn't get any attention, in spite of the complaints of siege tanks that have been popping up since they were nerfed into the ground in WoL. In the midst of an all-buff patch (Patch #8 minus the infestor), the tank was ignored.
Taking a look at the siege tank and their fundamental weaknesses, we find about 3 major problems:
1) Tanks cost 3 supply and 150m125g. They are super expensive in terms of both supply and cost. This means that you can only slowly build up a tank count, and that your tank count will ultimately be lower.
2) Tanks do 35 base damage. This is pitiful for a space control unit. Having such low damage, slow attack speed, and small splash means that you need around 4+ tanks to control any space at all.
3) Tanks are very immobile, so they need some kind of support unit. They don't do well when things get close, and they obviously have problems against air.
So why haven't they addressed these things? They've made all kinds of changes, including the insane medivac buffs and the awkward seeker missile change, but they have still yet to even tweak tank damage by even 5 damage.
2) The Widow Mine's Role:
+ Show Spoiler +Since the inception of HotS, there has been this kind of ambiguous role Blizzard is trying to fill. The IDEA was to give terran better space control and ways to defend against harassment well. The shredder was the first incarnation of the widow mine, but was far too powerful in mineral lines. So it was scrapped and the widow mine replaced it as a 2 food exploding mine that took way too long to get into position. Then Blizzard decided to make mines reuseable since they came out of the factory as a factory unit and because they were 2 supply. In addition to the new missile attack, Blizzard gave widow mine small splash and huge single target damage. In its final and latest incarnation, it was again reduced to cost/supply inefficient.
As we look at the problems and odd changes that the widow mine has gone through, we can pinpoint its problems to a few things:
1) The supply cost is too high. The biggest difference between the spider mines in BW and the widow mines in HotS is that spider mines cost 3 mines to 75m0g and 1 supply while widow mines cost 75m25g and 2 supply. In other words, you could make 6 spider mines for every 1 widow mine. In addition, you also didn't have dead supply hanging around on the map in BW.
2) Widow mines take far longer than spider mines to set up. widow mines have to be made out of the factory (2 at a time max) and then must be transported to the area where they need to set up, and then be burrowed.
3) Widow mines have a very short range. They are easily outranged by things like stalkers, colossus, marauders, and hydralisks.
4) They are too random at the moment. They do single-target damage and do not allow the player to target a specific unit. As a result, you can either end up killing an immortal or a zealot depending on what came near it first.
There are a lot of problems with this unit, and I think it's quite clear that Blizzard doesn't know which direction to take it either. They are saying that they are trying to dance a thin line between balance and overpowered, but I think they are honestly lost on the overarching idea of WHAT THE HELL this unit is supposed to actually do.
3) The Role of Space Control:
+ Show Spoiler +Space Control is defined as: "Something providing zone/board control makes it dangerous to go within a certain area." (Credit to DemigodcelpH). In HotS, terran space control is shared between tanks, widow mines, and planetary fortresses.
Analyzing the 3 forms of space control, we have:
1) Planetaries with a ton of health, a slow attack, and fairly large splash
2) Tanks with average damage and moderate splash damage
3) Widow mines with huge single target damage and almost no splash
In the end, plantaries take a ton of time to get up safely, so most space control generally relies on tanks and their synergy with widow mines. The only problem is that there isn't a lot of synergy. If tanks are overtaken by groups of zerglings, burrowing widow mines on your tanks just helps them die faster. If your widow mines are being covered by your tanks, they will shoot A(1) missile and then die to splash. If some or all of the mines covering your tanks fire a missile, they are deactivated for the remainder of the engagement and useless supply. All that being said, tanks and mines seem fairly unstable together. In a way, widow mines and tanks overlap roles too much; both do a fair amount of single target damage and some splash, but the tank has a longer range.
What I think should be done:
+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to start with a disclaimer. I'm only a diamond-level player, I don't claim to be the greatest player ever or have the best game knowledge ever. I'm taking some things I haven't talked about in this thread into my considerations, including how balancing units would affect different matchups, how things could possibly be broken, etc. Here it is:
SWAP THE ATTACKS OF TANKS AND WIDOW MINES:
GIVE TANKS SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE AND MINES TONS OF SPLASH
Widow mine: 75m/0.5-1 supply, 35s build time. 75 health
-Takes 3 seconds to burrow, 1.5 second attack delay where widow mine is revealed (and vulnerable to attack).
-60 damage to single target, 45 damage splash, 2.5 radius splash with only 1 splash zone, 25s cooldown
-Range 5
-Attack is player-targetable, ait units targetted, cloaked units untargetable.
-(allow drilling claws upgrade to reduce burrow time to 1s)
Siege tank: 150m125g/3 supply, 45s build time, 160 health
-70 flat damage to single target, 40 damage splash, 0.8 radius splash
-Range 7 (13 in siege mode)
-changing between siege and tank mode takes 5 seconds
This allows tanks to better handle threats like ultras and infestors while still staying fairly balanced against smaller units. In turn, the widow mines can deal with units that close the gap well as well as deal with runbys a little more easily, acting essentially like burrowed banelings. While they will not be as potent against harassment like banshees, oracles, or hellions, all other problems can be solved with turrets and good building/unit placement. Widow mines will be cheaper and feel easier to mass and create minefields; cleaning up minefields will still take time, but won't be incredibly risky. Microing units like stimmed marines and mutas will be possible as long as the player is paying attention (and in some cases, stimmed marines or speed roaches could actually kill off mines while simply a-moving).
There is a question in mind that asks, "Where will this put thors?", and I honestly don't know. But I feel, in order to correct the synergy between widow mine and tank, the attacks need to change and slight changes to burrow/transformation times are needed to adjust for the power of the attacks.
I would like to hear some feedback in general on the mine, the tank, and the roles they play together. I know it's a long read, but it's really okay to just skim through. Tell me what you think!
_
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Normally I dislike it when people post ideas for major unit or balance overhauls. Unless they are a pro-player or blizzard employee, there's not much reason to care what they think. But it is fun to discuss ideas. So at the risk of seeming hypocritical, I am going to post ideas for major unit and balance overhauls. Bear in mind that I am not a pro-gamer or a blizzard employee, and there is not much reason to care what I think...
1. Siege Tank - I think it's fine the way it is. It's a strong and affordable tier 2 unit. Increasing its damage would turn it into a tier 3 unit, and reducing its supply or cost and it would be OP (think 1 supply roaches).
2. Widow Mine - I agree that there is something wrong with the widow mine. It feels like a catch-all unit. Let's compare it to a burrowed baneling:
Banelings must be detonated manually, requiring skill.
Mines detonate automatically requiring zero skill.
Banelings are inefficient when used on single targets, therefore you must choose your targets wisely, requiring more skill.
Mines basically one-shot everything plus deal splash. The recent decrease in single target damage makes them more like banelings in that they are [slightly] less efficient when used on single targets now. Meaning that there is some added risk to using them, where before, there was little risk because you were almost guaranteed at least one kill.
Banelings have to be within melee range to detonate and you can only use them once.
Mines have a ranged attack and can be used as many times as you want.
Banelings only attack ground units.
Mines can attack ground and air units (thankfully not cloaked units anymore).
Basically, mines are way better than burrowed banelings in every single category. This explains why they cost so much more. My point here, is that if you reduce the cost or supply of the mines, you simply MUST nerf the hell out of it.
Suggestions:
Get rid of the widow mine completely and give spider mines to the reaper. This would give added usefulness to the reaper, as well as allow for some space control. The new spider mines could have increased range and attack both ground and air targets but would be consumed after one use. It would be a free unit in terms of resources and supply, but the downside is that you must train a new reaper to obtain more mines.
Reduce raven auto-turret from 50 energy to 25 (why are they more energy than infested terrans anyway?). That way players could spam auto-turrets to control space in combination with tanks and mines.
Add a new upgrade for the viking to make it viable when in mech form. This would fill the role of the now defunct warhound. While this would not be a "factory" unit, it would fit nicely into a mech composition which is what the warhound and widow mine were meant to do.
I realize that making these changes basically means that Terran gets no "new" units. And that might be a problem for some, but I think that terran has enough units already, they just need to be tweaked to make them more fun to use.
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The problem with tank not getting attention it is a very very fragile unit. A few points of damage or life can be a game-breaker because of the unit's role. I guess we will see how it unfolds but I really wish the tank was just more beastly, especially against P. Perhaps another Fusion Core upgrade for them? I don't know.
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Tank is garbage unit in HOTS. It gets countered by just about every unit. With widow mines and battle hellions there are 0 reasons to build siege tanks in HOTS.
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Hi,
I'm a P player here, but I am 100% behind the idea of buffing mech and will talk a little bit about TvP. I feel it's for now quite fragile because of that damn immortal...
My ideal game ? A game where the defender has a strong advantage and positionnal play has a lot of importance. You win by strong macro and big multitasking by defending and harassing a lot a lot. So a lot of skirmishes around the map as you slowly overcome your opponent, hurting his macro. SC2 is far from there (yet?).
Therefore, I am advocating big buffs to the tank. Hell, tanks should be scary ! I am not supposed to a-move 6 immortals into them and ruining everything... I should try to play with mech's weakness: immobility, avoiding them to harass expansions where tanks aren't, while expanding crazy myself... and then suffering harass myself with hellions/mines, etc. I don't quite now how to explain this and maybe I sound stupid, but this comes from the heart guys :D
On the other hand... in BW T bio was muredered by the biffy P units. Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy if T can mech or go bio, both being viable. But the fast is that bio now just destroy protoss in mid-game without AOE. So we see a lot of turtling, less harass, etc. and this leads to less interesting games.
The problem is, that nerfing for example the marauder is shutting down T bio. So the "design flaw" is more on the P side... that's why I'd make drastic changes to this race that don't feel... well... that don't feel "protoss" or just well designed. Something like make the stalker damage bonus to light and not vs armor, swap sentry and immortal in robo. Yes, immortals T1.5, but nerfed a lot. Etc, etc. and THEN, we will be able to see a viable mech + viable bio.
CONCLUSION: please please buff the hell out of tanks. Remake P almost from scratch. Thanks.
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Maybe Stalkers should do full damages to everything and not just armored. Like the ultralisk. This way, protoss doesnt rely too much on AoE. They can weaken the colossi by changing the way it works.
This is a change like the ultra buff so that zerg doesnt rely too much on the Broodlord.
Then, blizzard can buff tank since 1 1 1 wont be as strong as before. And nerf immortal : remove this godamn hardened shield ! It's broking the game !
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From my point of view, a strategy game doesnt rely only on skill but also you need to be smarter than your opponent, so people is missing the fact that the widow mines doesnt require skill to be used, they need intelligence. A good placement, to bait enemy units on to a minefield, etc...
Not every unit in SC2 needs micro
EDIT: dont compare widow mines with banelings.
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On December 21 2012 16:37 YoungNV wrote:
Suggestions:
Get rid of the widow mine completely and give spider mines to the reaper. This would give added usefulness to the reaper, as well as allow for some space control.
The thought of Bio with space control viable units gets me hard. The problem is that there would then be no downside to playing bio vs anything and mech would be redundant.
I'd prefer to see mines added to mech and bio, but with different uses on each. Mech mines would offer viable cheap AA and support for tank controlled areas and bio mines would be tailored for light AoE with little to no single target damage to compliment all bio being single target damage.
Perhaps add mines as an upgrade on tech labs; factory for mech and barracks for bio. Researching barracks lab'd mines would add mines to barracks production units and factory research to factory units.
Will never happen. But just thinking about bio with positional play and area control is awesome.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 21 2012 16:37 YoungNV wrote:
Suggestions:
Get rid of the widow mine completely and give spider mines to the reaper. This would give added usefulness to the reaper, as well as allow for some space control. The new spider mines could have increased range and attack both ground and air targets but would be consumed after one use. It would be a free unit in terms of resources and supply, but the downside is that you must train a new reaper to obtain more mines.
Reduce raven auto-turret from 50 energy to 25 (why are they more energy than infested terrans anyway?). That way players could spam auto-turrets to control space in combination with tanks and mines.
Add a new upgrade for the viking to make it viable when in mech form. This would fill the role of the now defunct warhound. While this would not be a "factory" unit, it would fit nicely into a mech composition which is what the warhound and widow mine were meant to do.
1) I think the reaper carrying around mines is a cool idea, but reapers take so long to build. Not to mention that early-game TvT would be ruined even more than it already is by reapers lol. Maybe if the idea had come into being before all the buffs to reaper, it would have been valid, but I just don't think it would work anymore.
2) Agreed. I don't see players using auto-turret still though lol. I'd rather set up point defense drones in an area as a space control "screen" (as well as floating scout) or save all my energy for seeker missile.
3) I've heard this idea quite a bit and I think it's actually a really good one. I don't think anyone can argue that vikings could ever be overpowered in mech form when you compare them to how much better marines are. I'd be up for a straight up buff even; forget upgrades.
On December 21 2012 17:30 Kiro21 wrote:
The problem with tank not getting attention it is a very very fragile unit. A few points of damage or life can be a game-breaker because of the unit's role. I guess we will see how it unfolds but I really wish the tank was just more beastly, especially against P. Perhaps another Fusion Core upgrade for them? I don't know.
I was thinking about that. I think it would be nice to have a fusion core upgrade for tanks to keep them strong into the lategame. Unfortunately, I think that now, in conjunction with the caduceus reactor upgrade moved to fusion core as well, you could depend on marine/tank all the way through to the lategame, which would actually just make the game really stale. You wouldn't need a lategame transition. If they were to get an upgrade, it couldn't be damage, it would have to be something like the Shaped Blast from campaign (40% less damage to friendly units).
On December 21 2012 18:18 Wayem wrote:
Hi,
I'm a P player here, but I am 100% behind the idea of buffing mech and will talk a little bit about TvP. I feel it's for now quite fragile because of that damn immortal...
My ideal game ? A game where the defender has a strong advantage and positionnal play has a lot of importance. You win by strong macro and big multitasking by defending and harassing a lot a lot. So a lot of skirmishes around the map as you slowly overcome your opponent, hurting his macro. SC2 is far from there (yet?).
Therefore, I am advocating big buffs to the tank. Hell, tanks should be scary ! I am not supposed to a-move 6 immortals into them and ruining everything... I should try to play with mech's weakness: immobility, avoiding them to harass expansions where tanks aren't, while expanding crazy myself... and then suffering harass myself with hellions/mines, etc. I don't quite now how to explain this and maybe I sound stupid, but this comes from the heart guys :D
On the other hand... in BW T bio was muredered by the biffy P units. Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy if T can mech or go bio, both being viable. But the fast is that bio now just destroy protoss in mid-game without AOE. So we see a lot of turtling, less harass, etc. and this leads to less interesting games.
The problem is, that nerfing for example the marauder is shutting down T bio. So the "design flaw" is more on the P side... that's why I'd make drastic changes to this race that don't feel... well... that don't feel "protoss" or just well designed. Something like make the stalker damage bonus to light and not vs armor, swap sentry and immortal in robo. Yes, immortals T1.5, but nerfed a lot. Etc, etc. and THEN, we will be able to see a viable mech + viable bio.
CONCLUSION: please please buff the hell out of tanks. Remake P almost from scratch. Thanks.
This is a very insightful post. I think it's interesting to look at the TvP matchup and say that the problem isn't terran, but the way protoss is designed, and therefore the way terran has to deal with it is flawed. It's certain that protoss could be a better race with complete overhauls, but we're far far into SC2 and can't change that, though. I DO agree with you though. And I definitely think tanks should be scary for everyone; (as of right now, tanks are not nearly as frightening as banelings, which tells you something).
On December 21 2012 18:29 drkcid wrote:
From my point of view, a strategy game doesnt rely only on skill but also you need to be smarter than your opponent, so people is missing the fact that the widow mines doesnt require skill to be used, they need intelligence. A good placement, to bait enemy units on to a minefield, etc...
Not every unit in SC2 needs micro
EDIT: dont compare widow mines with banelings.
I would say the biggest design issue with the widow mine right now is that there's no such thing as "good placement" with the range and unpredictability of the widow mine. It's actually not a missile turret. Or a mine, really. It's honestly a unit that you just burrow in an area your opponent MIGHT come and then forget about, WHICH IS FINE for free mines. But not mines that eat up 2 supply and a bunch of gas.
Or you can do the huge offensive mine thing. Which is not bad, but not all that interesting either.
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Its seems like from when I play p v z that majority of terrans have been trying to implement a bio widowmine build. It doesnt work very well since chargelot amd storms melt everything. Widow mines need to find there place, it suppost to be a set it and forget it, not an offensive unit like in the early betA
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This thread should really be under hots TvP mech thread. anyways of all the mech units widow mines have the least versatility and the least transitional value early to mid to late game. Mech lacks a core army and now with the war hound gone his hasn't addressed this with anything but battle hellion mode. I'm a huge supporter for trying to keep hellions as the core army unit and the main mineral dump but come late game they're only used as harassment units. (I'll be it very effective ones) the biggest hole in mech at this point is the core unit late game. It needs to be replenishable versatile and not immobile. The only late game unit that's versatile is the Thor in that UT has aa. What it lacks is well everything else. It's not a Cote unit it's a long range high supply gas heavy splash damage armored unit. Sound familiar? From into late game it has little value for aa anyways. the Thor is a shitty tank. I know they operate completely differently but lets face it, it's not as effective as the tank and it's out of the mid game. Btw I love mech to death. I believe the fact that every unit had two "modes"proves it has capability and promise to be well rounded and versatile. Anything to fill the role of a core unit whether it be adjustments to the hellion, landed Vikings, the war hound again, Thors and their strike cannons, or any combination of those can put it in it's rightful place. the last thing mech fails at is it's shockingly stark transition from hellions into Vikings. This goes for TvZ as well. The Vikings are not versatile however effective. And the timing fit the transition is not a choice or tactic. Is determined by the opposing player. Any alteration to Thors it my dream the alteration of ravens into science vessels cutoffs help smooth the transition. Is not impossible. The war hound did exist once and the seeker missile has changed enough to change the strike cannon. Not to mention tank damage has been Nerf ed for the past four and a half years. The viable versatile vivacious mechanical composition is out there. You just have to dream it.
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i really dont think buffing tank in any way is the solution, tvz mech in its current form is doable / fine, viper is kinda hard with its cloud also being able to be used against mech but dmg wise its okay, its just tvp that is a problem and the tank dmg buff would solve it but would cause problems in other matchups, like tvt u will never see anything else then mech, i dont think a game where u ve to go xyz or else its bad is good game design
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Reasonable suggestions. In the HotS the tank is perhaps the worst unit in the game. I've gone on and on about the benefits of proper board control in this game, so I'll keep it short.
Fix the tank (which will directly contribute to making mech actually playable) and not only will you have a more fair game, but you will see the quality of SC2 games jump up immensely.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Why do people keep suggesting that they give the mine to the reaper? Do people not realise how much extra production terran would even need as mech and how many totally useless units we'd have in our armies just for mines?
i dont think a game where u ve to go xyz or else its bad is good game design
That happens in TvP already. Also buffing tank damage won't make bio completely unviable, nor would it make them too powerful in TvZ. Those are massive, massive misconceptions coming from people who don't understand how to deal with a higher damage tank. Due to vipers, zergs can completely negate larger damage tanks so that's a non issue. They also have locusts to soak up hits and broodlords which destroy tanks.
Terran can drop everywhere, split well and flank the mech army so they can deal with a mech army by just going a lot of maraduers. Bio is already terrible against a properly upgraded mech army in position, higher tank damage won't make a difference.
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On December 21 2012 16:37 YoungNV wrote:
Normally I dislike it when people post ideas for major unit or balance overhauls. Unless they are a pro-player or blizzard employee, there's not much reason to care what they think. But it is fun to discuss ideas. So at the risk of seeming hypocritical, I am going to post ideas for major unit and balance overhauls. Bear in mind that I am not a pro-gamer or a blizzard employee, and there is not much reason to care what I think...
1. Siege Tank - I think it's fine the way it is. It's a strong and affordable tier 2 unit. Increasing its damage would turn it into a tier 3 unit, and reducing its supply or cost and it would be OP (think 1 supply roaches).
2. Widow Mine - I agree that there is something wrong with the widow mine. It feels like a catch-all unit. Let's compare it to a burrowed baneling:
Banelings must be detonated manually, requiring skill.
Mines detonate automatically requiring zero skill.
Banelings are inefficient when used on single targets, therefore you must choose your targets wisely, requiring more skill.
Mines basically one-shot everything plus deal splash. The recent decrease in single target damage makes them more like banelings in that they are [slightly] less efficient when used on single targets now. Meaning that there is some added risk to using them, where before, there was little risk because you were almost guaranteed at least one kill.
Banelings have to be within melee range to detonate and you can only use them once.
Mines have a ranged attack and can be used as many times as you want.
Banelings only attack ground units.
Mines can attack ground and air units (thankfully not cloaked units anymore).
Basically, mines are way better than burrowed banelings in every single category. This explains why they cost so much more. My point here, is that if you reduce the cost or supply of the mines, you simply MUST nerf the hell out of it.
Suggestions:
Get rid of the widow mine completely and give spider mines to the reaper. This would give added usefulness to the reaper, as well as allow for some space control. The new spider mines could have increased range and attack both ground and air targets but would be consumed after one use. It would be a free unit in terms of resources and supply, but the downside is that you must train a new reaper to obtain more mines.
Reduce raven auto-turret from 50 energy to 25 (why are they more energy than infested terrans anyway?). That way players could spam auto-turrets to control space in combination with tanks and mines.
Add a new upgrade for the viking to make it viable when in mech form. This would fill the role of the now defunct warhound. While this would not be a "factory" unit, it would fit nicely into a mech composition which is what the warhound and widow mine were meant to do.
I realize that making these changes basically means that Terran gets no "new" units. And that might be a problem for some, but I think that terran has enough units already, they just need to be tweaked to make them more fun to use.
Mines should be used with mech. Reaper is a bio unit and doesn't function with mech. Reapers on the otherhand should be redesigned to make it a better allround unit (while still a good harass unit). Somewhat similar to the role mutalisks have for zerg players).
Turret problem is that you can't place the goddamn turrets anywhere. FIx this problem before reducing its energy.
Viking suggestion is okay'ish, but our main problem is that mech needs something to counter immortal. Every mech suggestion post should have a suggestion regarding this problem.
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First thing that should be noted about the Siege Tank is that the BW Siege Tank did 35 base damage too (technically 70 base damage, but it was reduced to 35 against small units like Marines, Zerglings, and notably, Zealots). That is most likely not the problem. Rather, the issue is primarily the 3 supply and the counter units like the Immortal. The 3 supply can be changed easily without adversely affecting any matchup (Tanks do not dominate any matchup, and indeed are rarely seen outside of TvZ where they are made obsolete by the Broodlord and the 1-1-1 where supply cap is not an issue), but the counters are something else entirely. It is difficult to just remove them from the game, so what needs to be done is that Terran units need to be changed so that they can handle the counters. The two big-issue units right now are the Immortal and the Broodlord. The Immortal may be possible to address via Ghostmech, so I'd leave it for now (it's also absolutely critical for defending the 1-1-1). The Broodlord is more difficult. The closest thing it has to a counter is the Viking, which is handled well by Infestors and Corruptors, and Broodlords can destroy Siege Tank defensive positions so fast that it's still a major problem. I believe a better way to handle the situation is to continue the Thor's quest towards becoming a dedicated anti-air platform, and allow Strike Cannons to target air. This will allow the Terran to resist Broodlord offensives more effectively, and better protect the Tank.
Someone has mentioned giving Spider Mines to Reapers. I think this is a great idea. Bio doesn't benefit from defensive positional play enough to start working Reapers into the main builds, and so we'll primarily see Reapers limited to Mech and extreme lategame gambits. Besides, Widow Mines are rapidly becoming mini-tanks, which is stupid.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 22 2012 19:14 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
i really dont think buffing tank in any way is the solution, tvz mech in its current form is doable / fine, viper is kinda hard with its cloud also being able to be used against mech but dmg wise its okay, its just tvp that is a problem and the tank dmg buff would solve it but would cause problems in other matchups, like tvt u will never see anything else then mech, i dont think a game where u ve to go xyz or else its bad is good game design
If I may explain: my suggestion is a buff to the tank that would just make it better for single target damage. The splash I suggest is greatly reduced, meaning that the tank would only hit like 2-3 stalkers at a time or maybe 4 zealots/marines/banelings.
Biggest problem in TvP mech is the immortal/chargelot/archon mixture. Zealots will melt under the AoE of mines + hellions while the improved single target tank would chew through the archons and immortals better. While there is still the problem of dealing with the immortal's shields, mech fares a lot better with a tank that can actually be scary against ground units.
The reason why this doesn't affect the other matchups is because 1) small units that are already 1-shotted by tanks would still be 1-shotted and 2) the limited splash radius lowers the overall damage it does, meaning marines/lings don't get raped hard by a few tanks. In addition, the splash damage I suggested is slightly not enough to kill a marine.
On December 22 2012 19:31 Qikz wrote:
Why do people keep suggesting that they give the mine to the reaper? Do people not realise how much extra production terran would even need as mech and how many totally useless units we'd have in our armies just for mines?
This is true. Another reason why, although giving mines to the reaper feels like a cool idea, might not work. Although...it would transition into ghostmech a lot better.
On December 22 2012 21:46 Acritter wrote:
First thing that should be noted about the Siege Tank is that the BW Siege Tank did 35 base damage too (technically 70 base damage, but it was reduced to 35 against small units like Marines, Zerglings, and notably, Zealots). That is most likely not the problem. Rather, the issue is primarily the 3 supply and the counter units like the Immortal. The 3 supply can be changed easily without adversely affecting any matchup (Tanks do not dominate any matchup, and indeed are rarely seen outside of TvZ where they are made obsolete by the Broodlord and the 1-1-1 where supply cap is not an issue), but the counters are something else entirely. It is difficult to just remove them from the game, so what needs to be done is that Terran units need to be changed so that they can handle the counters. The two big-issue units right now are the Immortal and the Broodlord.
This is an interesting point. I suppose with the introduction of tempests and vipers, there's really no reason why tank supply can't be lowered at this point and made more viable in the lategame. HOWEVER, to say that it has no effect on a 1-1-1 or early game pressure is wrong, I think. With only 2 supply instead of 3, you could easily squeeze out an extra 3-4 marines because of the supply not taken up by tanks. In fact, this might translate to an extra 100m+ buildup because you need less supply depots. Minor effects, but they are there.
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The Protoss death ball is more mobile than mech's death ball meaning the Protoss had more opportunities to abuse mistakes. The widow mine was meant to be a counter part to the tank to smooth out the edges of tank war fair. It makes it harder to dance around the terran blinking were it hurts. If the widow mine doesn't do substantial damage then it doesn't pose enough of a threat to allow the tanks to unseige and maneuver.
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I have no idea what I'm talking about, so I'll need somebody to tell me if my idea is idiotic or ingenius. But um.
If the problem T mech faces is zealot/archon/immortal, then why not...
Remove the immortal. Compensate with other buffs (or another new unit)
Afaik (and I might be horribly mistaken) they'll just need buffs to handle roaches against Z, and something to make PvP more interesting (since you won't be able to go immortal against stalker anymore)
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I would like to see siege tank's range and damage increased. As for the widow mine, reduce its supply to 1, cost to 50 minerals, and balance accordingly. This would solve a lot of the problems with mech.
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EPT
