EPTOn December 19 2012 07:44 Insoleet wrote:
Mines shouldnt even hit banshees actually
Mines shouldnt even hit banshees actually
I'd be happy with them fucking everything in the ground up and not hitting air actually.
Beta Balance Update #10 - Page 16
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
I'd be happy with them fucking everything in the ground up and not hitting air actually. | ||
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Quakecomm
United States344 Posts
im zerg and i dont like this | ||
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. So basically we're back to where we started. Where fungals are a crutch to make up for the rest of Zerg being garbage? | ||
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MrMatt
Canada225 Posts
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Insoleet wrote: Mines shouldnt even hit banshees actually Seems like they could just keep it 160 ground, 125 air. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. Finally someone with a brain talking on this thread. Thanks. Dont forgot to watch all HOTS matches that will come. And play the beta. And dudes, if BL/Infestor is still OP... Blizz will make a slow fungle instead of root :p Blizz doesnt want to have BL/Infestor each game. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
Blink nerf was a must because it was almost impossible to defend gasless FE against MSC/Blink all-in on some maps in TvP. Actually, it may still not be enough. And fungal change seems just stupid. If you are going to buff fungal (which is already a mistake IMO) buff either range or speed. Not both. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. This isn't a good analogy because the new fungal travels the 10 range faster than it used to travel the 8 range. If they didn't increase the speed as well, this wouldn't be an issue. Imagine in your example that the fungal traveled 20 range faster than it currently travels 10. That's the proper analogy, and yeah, that would be broken. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:47 Insoleet wrote: Finally someone with a brain talking on this thread. Thanks. Dont forgot to watch all HOTS matches that will come. And play the beta. And dudes, if BL/Infestor is still OP... Blizz will make a slow fungle instead of root :p Blizz doesnt want to have BL/Infestor each game. As much as it may make you feel superior, insulting all those who have a different opinion to you by implying they don't have a brain is rather rude. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:42 Crawdad wrote: Where'd you get the numbers for EMP? Is there some sort of projectile speed list? I opened up the data editor and took a look at the EMP missile's mover. | ||
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kiy0
Portugal593 Posts
On December 19 2012 06:25 D4V3Z02 wrote: Zerg was too weak without fungal, a welcome change! Zerg was NOT weak without FG. It's just that fungal is soo strong in WoL and people have been using it for soo long. They didn't even give Zergs time to figure stuff out. I said it before and, like many others, I'll say it again. The game is better off without fungal growth. You can't balance the PvZ and TvZ matchups based on the sole existence of a single spell. It's just not worth it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote: It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal. Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away. This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think. Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course. Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink. I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable. BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared. But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. Get out of here with your logic and reasonable thinking. This is a patch thread, where we whine about abilities we don't like having larger numbers! Range 10 is larger than range 8 and that means the patch is bad. I have seen the larger numbers and do not even need to test anying. Going back to WoL until Blizzard learns their lession.(it is unclear what this lesson is) | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:44 Insoleet wrote: Mines shouldnt even hit banshees actually Press the cloak button and they don't. I have flown over enough mines with banshees, and never lost one yet simply by cloaking immediatly when you see the mine activate. Sure in the end you will sometimes lose them near missile turrets for example, but I dont think that is a problem. | ||
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:48 iEchoic wrote: This isn't a good analogy because the new fungal travels the 10 range faster than it used to travel the 8 range. If they didn't increase the speed as well, this wouldn't be an issue. The analogy is still applicable. The further the projectile flies, the more time you have to dodge it. It's just less time than before. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:43 Plansix wrote: Its beta. Fungle moves at half the speed of an EMP shot or 50% faster than before. I am sure the range will be nerfed. Its beta. Mines shouldn't one shot banshees, that is just bad. Its beta. Terrans don't want the mines to 1 shot banshees. In fact, it is very annoying in TvT to have your drops , banshees and whatnot killed by a single mine. It makes the game luck based. What we do want is a mine that is actually good. We want a new real unit like the tempest , oracle , swarm host or viper. Every iteration of the mine has at least one big flaw making it vastly inferior to its BW counterpart. We don't necceccarily want a spider mine though. We are fine with a standalone unit that costs supply, but it has to actually be powerful. Especially because the other new unit we are getting is just a transformed hellion. The mine needs to do more aoe damage. Remove its ability to hit air and make it 1 supply and be done with it. How hard can it be? And since it is beta we would also like to see some other buffs to TvP mech. Tank damage vs shields for instance or a nerf to immortals vs tanks and thors. Give us something to work with Blizzard. I am not buying the game if TvP does not turn out for the better and it would be a damn shame if you had 6 months of beta without trying any buffs to TvP mech. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:48 kollin wrote: As much as it may make you feel superior, insulting all those who have a different opinion to you by implying they don't have a brain is rather rude. The brainless whining at each page of this thread is pretty annoying actually. Sorry if it hurts, was not what i intended to do. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:38 Aquila- wrote: - A medivac upgrade that requires a fucking fusion core. The rest of your points are valid concerns but did you SEE dat medivac upgrade?! It's FANTASTIC that it requires a fusion core, it's a very legitimate reason to get a fusion core now as it is just THAT POWERFUL. The alternative would be nerfing it and having it still from the tech lab on starport without fusion core, this is was more fun. Still, I think even then people won't build BC's as vikings still tear them apart and they arn't the best choice for any role right now. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:38 Aquila- wrote: So to sum up Terran in HotS: - Terran gets a shitty mine that cannot detect and doesnt even kill a single Zealot. - A Hellion that is biological but doesnt benefit from bio upgrades but gets bonus damage from Archons. - Reapers that destroyed the best mirror matchup in the game. - A medivac upgrade that requires a fucking fusion core. - Mech TvP is still utter trash. While other races ge amazing things like the Viper. Rofl. The sad truth :/ | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:36 Insoleet wrote: Slowing fungle with high range projectile would be the best way to design it obviously  Lets hope blizzard try a slowing fungle next patch !Nah, Browder likes the root effect, he thinks it's unique. I'm literally laughing out loud at this patch, like for months everyone complains about FG being a boring, spam friendly ability and now they make it stronger haha. Sure it's BETA, but it shows their line of thinking...incredible. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:50 Insoleet wrote: The brainless whining at each page of this thread is pretty annoying actually. Sorry if it hurts, was not what i intended to do. No I don't take offence at it, it's just iEchoic countered his argument pretty quickly just posts later, kind of turning the tables. | ||
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