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[D] Warpgate idea - Disconnected Pylons - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Deckkie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1595 Posts
November 23 2012 19:32 GMT
#61
On November 21 2012 12:52 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2012 21:00 Zihn wrote:
would be simpler to just split pylon fields into 2 fields

power field: blue powers buildings, spread by pylons
warp field: white powers warp ins, spread by active warp gates and warp prisms

proxy pylon into gateway = 250 minerals + 100 sec buildtime
proxy nexus + pylon = 500 minerals + 100 sec buildtime (pylon can build while nexus is building)

it's a little less costly to proxy chese but without the overly complicated disconnected pylon mecanic that OP proposed.


Yeah, this the idea I like, as well.

Alternatively, make Warp Gates spawn units locally, but allow one Warp Gate to spawn units from all the other Warp Gates. So, you have 5 gates in your main, 1 at your natural and 1 at your third and you can spawn 7 Zealots at any one of your bases. The main change here is that Protoss players do not have to look away from their armies to macro.


It is relatively easy to proxy a building (look at proxy rax).

If you do this together with stronger gateway units, you gate has the potential to become very prominent again, and most possibly broken.

On November 22 2012 10:34 pzea469 wrote:
Just make gateways produce as fast as warpgates do currently and make warpgates have a longer cooldown. Units build slower with warpgates but you can warp them in. Switch back to gateways to build units faster but from your base. I think Starbow does that. Would mean that in PvP, the Protoss who is aggressively 4 gating his opponent would have a longer reinforcement cooldown than the Protoss that was defending with gateways. No need to over-complicate things.



When gateways produce as fast as warpgate every Protoss can two gate mass zealot all in every game. (WoL Beta)
Always look on the bright side of life
GARcher
Profile Joined October 2012
Canada294 Posts
November 23 2012 23:05 GMT
#62
On November 24 2012 01:07 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 00:56 GARcher wrote:
On November 23 2012 05:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On November 22 2012 10:43 GARcher wrote:
On November 22 2012 10:34 pzea469 wrote:
Just make gateways produce as fast as warpgates do currently and make warpgates have a longer cooldown. Units build slower with warpgates but you can warp them in. Switch back to gateways to build units faster but from your base. I think Starbow does that. Would mean that in PvP, the Protoss who is aggressively 4 gating his opponent would have a longer reinforcement cooldown than the Protoss that was defending with gateways. No need to over-complicate things.


Still doesn't solve the problem of max army situations where protoss has another 2 x #of warpgates supply of units ready to be instantly warped in. The warpgate is a broken mechanic to begin with tbh.


But protoss have 150-160 army supply vs 190 army supply. Even now TvP +30mins is heavily terran favored (70% winratio) and removing warp gate would just make situation much worse. If warp gate removes, you must remove mules, nerf larva alot ja nerf somekindly terran army.


Got sources to back that up?
Because good players will never let a game go past 30 minutes. The statistics could actually be from bronze leagues where no one knows what they are doing.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786

Master/GM: 69% TvP


#1. The statistics are half a year old and is only a part of the EU and NA servers.

#2. Only 1.68% of games reach past 30 minutes. Do you think it is logical to balance according to these statistics?

#3. 4% of the data is provided from the OP's own games

#4. Doesn't record games from across the ladder. Only from the people who actually use this tool.
ZvZ is like a shitty apartment: Roaches and Fungal Growth everywhere.
Fenris420
Profile Joined November 2011
Sweden213 Posts
November 24 2012 00:17 GMT
#63
On November 24 2012 08:05 GARcher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 24 2012 01:07 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On November 24 2012 00:56 GARcher wrote:
On November 23 2012 05:16 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On November 22 2012 10:43 GARcher wrote:
On November 22 2012 10:34 pzea469 wrote:
Just make gateways produce as fast as warpgates do currently and make warpgates have a longer cooldown. Units build slower with warpgates but you can warp them in. Switch back to gateways to build units faster but from your base. I think Starbow does that. Would mean that in PvP, the Protoss who is aggressively 4 gating his opponent would have a longer reinforcement cooldown than the Protoss that was defending with gateways. No need to over-complicate things.


Still doesn't solve the problem of max army situations where protoss has another 2 x #of warpgates supply of units ready to be instantly warped in. The warpgate is a broken mechanic to begin with tbh.


But protoss have 150-160 army supply vs 190 army supply. Even now TvP +30mins is heavily terran favored (70% winratio) and removing warp gate would just make situation much worse. If warp gate removes, you must remove mules, nerf larva alot ja nerf somekindly terran army.


Got sources to back that up?
Because good players will never let a game go past 30 minutes. The statistics could actually be from bronze leagues where no one knows what they are doing.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786

Master/GM: 69% TvP


#1. The statistics are half a year old and is only a part of the EU and NA servers.

#2. Only 1.68% of games reach past 30 minutes. Do you think it is logical to balance according to these statistics?

#3. 4% of the data is provided from the OP's own games

#4. Doesn't record games from across the ladder. Only from the people who actually use this tool.


I don't see how his argument is in any way invalidated by his source any more than yours would be, considering you have no source. The thread in question was critisised heavily by some people because of the method in which the average MMR was calculated, but I don't know enough about statistics to judge whether it was fair critisism or not.

It is however true, that without a source, your claims about warpgate is equally speculative at best.

The point I am trying to make is that without a very good way to analyse both player MMR -and- replays from the games in question, it is very hard to make a conclusion of how warpgates can or should implicate the game. Just like larvae and swappable addons, it is the race specific reinforcement.

Having said that, I agree with you on a philosophical level. It makes no sense for a system to be in place that rewards players to stockpile money and gateways once maxed. Just as little as it makes sense to sack workers for terran or supply cheat as zerg. The underlying problem there is that there is not enough incentive to be agressive for either race so that the supply cap is not reached or at least maintained.

Mostly there are abilities like fungals, stim and vortex to blame for this. I would add force fields, but they are much less common in the late game. Without being able to "hit and run" you are better off hoarding in your base, and that is when this problem arises.

As for the topic, I think warp gates should be redesigned, no matter how much that upsets game balance. Personally I would like to see the warp prism and MSC as the only points of warp in for protoss and a limiter for how many gates each of those units can warp from. Then make warpin something that happens in parallell with regular gateway production but at a much slower pace than currently and get rid of warp gate research altogether. Possibly make MSC slightly harder to obtain than currently. Maybe let it build from forge or something to prevent ultra cheesy warp rushes.
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-24 03:20:20
November 24 2012 03:15 GMT
#64
I have a better idea. Make warpgate a pylon / warp-prism thing where basically you research the spell, and then you can warp units into play equal to amount of pylons you have around the map. By doing it like this you have a firm separation between gateways and warped units. This to allow for them to act as reinforcements to a push as they do now, but it`d be a novel idea and easily limited through either increased unit costs or higher cooldown.

The problem with putting limits on warpgate right now is that gateways are your only unit producing facilities and as such protoss relies on them. By moving "warpgate" to pylons you could both limit and increase its impact while having stronger tier 1 toss units.
"Mudkip"
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