It seems to me that the siege tank is not a unit that sees much action anymore. It's been nerfed by blizzard to the point where we don't see terrible damage like we did in BW. I'd like to propose a change that would make the siege tank even more exciting to watch as a spectator and more viable in high level play.
The mortar in WC3 was a unit that did lots of damage. However, the projectiles shot a bit too fast and they were not really dodgeable. However, if we rethink the concept of projectiles, I think we could make it work in SC2. And of course they would be dodgeable, so the micro factor would be there, however the radius would be large enough that it would not be too easy for even progamers if there were a lot of siege tanks attacking at the same time.
In addition, the fact that the projectiles are dodgeable would make it so Blizzard would be ok with increasing the damage to a nice level.
Video of the mortar team:
What I propose is this:
1. Give the siege tank projectile weaponry 2. Make it do splash damage with a 2.0 radius 3. Give it a projectile speed of 6.25 4. Increase the projectile range of 17 in siege mode 5. Make the projectile damage equal to 70 within a 1.5 radius, and 40 damage for the outside 0.5 radius. 6. Give the projectiles a unit size equivalent to the battle hellion with a cannon shell-like design.
I am sure that this would make the siege tank a more used and fun unit to watch, regardless of whether or not mech is used.
Poll: Do you think the siege tank needs a change?
Yes (80)
87%
No (12)
13%
92 total votes
Your vote: Do you think the siege tank needs a change?
Poll: What do YOU think would be the best change for siege tanks?
Decrease supply to 2 (31)
45%
Research upgrade to siege mode to increase damage/negate shield armor (22)
32%
Screw tanks, make fungal growth a projectile! (9)
13%
Negate shield armor (3)
4%
Faster attack speed (3)
4%
Increase siege mode range (1)
1%
69 total votes
Your vote: What do YOU think would be the best change for siege tanks?
(Vote): Negate shield armor (Vote): Faster attack speed (Vote): Decrease supply to 2 (Vote): Increase siege mode range (Vote): Research upgrade to siege mode to increase damage/negate shield armor (Vote): Screw tanks, make fungal growth a projectile!
Poll: What nerfs to the tank would you be willing to accept with a tank buff
Slower siege mode transformation (44)
88%
Decreased attack speed in siege mode (3)
6%
Tank attack becomes a projectile (3)
6%
Increase siege mode range (0)
0%
50 total votes
Your vote: What nerfs to the tank would you be willing to accept with a tank buff
(Vote): Slower siege mode transformation (Vote): Decreased attack speed in siege mode (Vote): Tank attack becomes a projectile (Vote): Increase siege mode range
Thank you for taking the time to read this thread. Please share your thoughts!
Also, since HOTS beta is the testing ground for reworking older units, if someone could please post this thread in the HOTS section of blizz forums I would appreciate it. I don't have a beta key!
Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
A dodgeable projectile artillery would be a very nice unit, at least if the BW Lurker is any indication. But I don't think the tank needs that big a change. #projectilefungal2013
I think the tanks did operate to a similar role like this in beta. Although the projectile was instant so it was kinda different but the overall concept used to be the same. I think it was change to offer more consistent data and attack pattern. I am not entirely sure but it was change during beta how the seige fire works though
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
I would like it if more abilities and attacks were projectiles and at least partly dodgeable for example the collosus could be changed into a much more exciting unit that way. However I don't think it would be a good idea for the siegetank at all. Tanks are already a very dynamic unit because they need to siege before they can do aoe damage this doesn't have any synergy with your proposal. The problem is not that tanks are not exciting enough it is that they are too bad in some situations. Particularly in TvP where charge zealots and immortals make engaging into tank lines way too easy. But also in TvZ tanks don't seem to do enough damage sometimes.
On November 10 2012 06:52 Fen1kz wrote: siege tanks is fine and dont needs rework, it just need to be 2 supply and may be faster attack speed
2 supply yes, faster attack speed no. It makes the tank too the same as everything. I'd increase the cool down between shots, add overkill and buff damage to compensate. If the damage was properly compensated, the tank would go back to being the machine that gives Protoss and Zerg nightmares, but open ups some interesting micro opportunities on both sides. (Spread positioning and counter spreading.)
Today on battle.net, there was a thoughtful discussion about the siege tank and how weak it was again protoss late game (in the context of the Rain vs MVP HOTS match in which mech was pathetic).
The 'Rock' responded and said, "Thanks for the discussion. Good stuff."
Ultimately however, I think the fix for mech and the siege tank will have to be a straight up buff.
My favorite solution is a late game update that does bonus damage to electromagnetic units (protoss).
Advantages: * Doesn't affect balance in TvZ nor TvT * As a late game upgrade (perhaps requires siege mode & armory & lengthy research time), it would not be viable as a 111 strategy. * It applies to zealot/archon whereas other damage proposed damage modifiers do not.
This buff is urgently needed and long overdue. TvP has become too formulaic and one-dimensional with bio. HOTS can not survive as a an e-sport if pro's keep doing the same bio builds over and over and over and over...
How about giving tanks a secondary damage bonus like Void Rays (bonus vs armored and massive)? Call it Perdition Shells or something like that and have the upgrade grant tanks additional damage vs bio. With extra damage vs bio tanks will be more effective at killing swarms of ling/bling or Marines, do more damage to charging Zealots, and be more effective against Marauders, Roaches, Infestors, and Hydras, giving them greater dominance on the ground and another way to balance out their damage.
edit: Huh, didn't see that post above me. The option you're looking for is a bonus vs mechanical to nail the bulk of Protoss (Zealots and Archons will not be affected), but I don't really like that. Making tanks more effective against Immortals is a bad idea, Immortals are supposed to hard counter Mech. If you make tanks stronger against the designated Protoss mech counter, then Protoss need something else to help counter mech. It's better to deal with Immortals by introducing a Factory unit that deals low damage rapidly (the proposed Viking ground attack 12x1 -> 6x2 or 7x2 comes to mind) as a softer counter to Immortal for a meching player.
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
When I was reading about how one of the biggest problem with mech is being ability to replace it (build it again), I was thinking about an upgrade idea that is similar to Thor's immortality protocol in the SP campaign.
Idea is that all non-reactorable mech units (no hellions and widow mines) have an upgrade called "Recycle". Recycle is a tech lab upgrade with maybe 150/150 mineral and gas cost with a research time of 80.
When a tank or thor gets destroyed, it leaves behind salvageable material (it disappears after like 20 seconds though).
All you need is a unit that isn't the *thor or tank itself (also flying units can pick it up too) to go near the salvageable material and it adds to your salvageable material count (there is one for tank and one for thor, there could be a UI indicator in the factory for this).
*This requirement doesn't have to be in. I just think it'd be weird to see players trying to pick up salvageable material with their own tanks and thors (like say, you have an army of thors, and the thor will end up recycling themselves if they're close to each other when they die).
Anyway, when you have *"2" salvageable material (again, there is one for tank and for thor), the next tank or thor built builds 2x faster (but costs the same).
*The reason why you need 2 is because it might be overpowered otherwise. This means if you lost 12 tanks, and can salvage them, you can build the next 6 tanks at 2x faster speed.
Alternatively you could just scrap out the whole "you have to have a unit nearby to collect the salvageable material" and just make it auto add (with a button or UI indicator on the factory) whenever a mech unit dies.
Also the numbers can be adjusted.
Summary of idea again (this is without the complicated "you have to pick up 'salvageable material part', if people like that, it can be kept in):
1. An upgrade called recycle that causes tanks and thors (which are the non-reactorable mech units) to add one "Recycle" counter (for the respective unit that died, you can't mix and match) to you (the amount will be displayed on the factory's command card).
2. When you have 2 Recycle counters, the next tank or thor (depending on which you have) will be built at 2x the speed.
The potential problem with this idea is that it makes mech less mech (since mech's weakness should be that it's harder to be rebuilt but it's strength should be that if you can keep mech up with the right positioning, it's more potent than bio). On the plus side though, it makes mech more flexible and doesn't cause mech to lose its identity that much (I mean, for every 2 tanks you lose, you can build the next 1 tank 2x faster, same with thors).
To make mech work on PvT they will have to re do a lot of stuff immortals / archons just completely rape mech add storm and colossus how useless tanks range is in this game is and bang your whole 200 mech army just got crushed. The only time mech seems to work is when Protoss doesn't see it and terran is able to have a blue flame run by or doesn't protect his 3 bases from hellion run by.
Tanks are fine tvz, but not tvp. Honestly I don't really know how they could buff tanks without making them to strong in tvz. I do wish they were viable vs protoss as it would be fun to see protosses armies just get obliterated by tanks again :D
The problem with TvP mech is protoss shields, specifically the Immortal and the Archon, Terran players just need to learn how to incorporate some ghost into their play, and bam, problem solved
On November 10 2012 10:30 Sawamura wrote: They should allow us to upgrade siege tank damage back to 75 in siege mode .
Siege tanks never did 75 damage.
Their cool down was
Cooldown
37 (tank mode) 75 (siege mode
so far I always thought my siege tank always deal 75 damage but looking back on the stats in http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Siege_tank_(StarCraft) they deal 70 damage per splash .Anyway I would like to have my overpowered 70 damage back.
i would like the siege tank to feel more like a siege unit. imo they should buff the damage and reduce the speed or the buildup time. and remove smartshooting-ai, it's such a stupid idea to give this to tanks in a game where units constantly clump up.
also siege mode tech would probably need a higher research time if the tank is buffed. btw i dont think that making it two supply would be justified, it's way to strong for a two supply unit.
Specifically, the issue with mech is that the siege tank depends on front loaded damage. When it attacks zerg or terran bio this works well because they lack hp and can be quickly eliminated. So zerg and terran are terrified of entering a tank line because they know will get a ton of front-loaded damage.
With protoss it's different because so many toss units have so much hp. So protoss can safely enter a siege tank barrage and then because the siege tanks have a long cool-down, the protoss units can rip apart the tank line.
Generally speaking, units with a lot of hp de-emphasis positioning. A 200hp unit that attacks a siege line doing say 50 damage only loses a quarter of its health before engaging in battle compared to say a 100hp unit that loses half it's health. High hp and low damage is bad for positioning.
The fix is simple...give protoss units less hp to re-emphasis positioning (tricky) or better yet, give siege tanks an upgrade that lets them deal more damage to protoss units (good solution).
On November 10 2012 10:41 Blackfeather wrote: i would like the siege tank to feel more like a siege unit. imo they should buff the damage and reduce the speed or the buildup time. and remove smartshooting, it's such a stupid idea to give this to tanks.
also siege mode tech would probably need a higher research time if the tank is buffed. btw i dont think that making it two supply would be justified, it's way to strong for a two supply unit.
Well to counter the siege tank being too good for a two supply unit just check out the infestors man the spells on this unit is just too good in my opinion for it to be a two supply (probably not justified too). Fungal growth just kills everything it is casted on.
On November 10 2012 10:27 blade55555 wrote: Tanks are fine tvz, but not tvp. Honestly I don't really know how they could buff tanks without making them to strong in tvz. I do wish they were viable vs protoss as it would be fun to see protosses armies just get obliterated by tanks again :D
Honestly don't you think that tanks aren't a bit off in tvz as well? The only reason you build them when you go bio is because you need them against banelings and you can target infestors otherwise you would be better off just building pure MMM. With mech you need them against roaches but you don't really want more than 5-7 in your end game composition either. One of the big problems of TvZ isn't the end game army because in theory you could always build an equivalent terran army but in reality you won't be able to hold on until you reached that composition. I think one of the reasons for this is because tanks are just a tad too bad especially considering how hard you get punished for producing them.
sorry slightly out of topic. One more thing i want to add about playing mech vs any race, it should be the late game ultimate composition that is possible to go toe to toe with z and P's. Yes mech is vialble vs Z but you can see how many times MVP had to use it as a timing push where he had to push to win or make major damage before the BL/infestors/corruptors ultimate composition is formed.
I don't mean that you should always get an auto win if you get the ultimate mech composition in the end, but at least it should have a 50/50 chance of winning when facing Z and P 200/200 army.
I vote for buffing the tanks siege mode damage significantly, while increasing the mode switching time. It would be stronger defensively, but offensively it would require more careful advancing.
Actually a tank mode damage nerf might be good too to force the importance of the siege.
Hum are we talking about the same unit that can one shot clustered infestor or baneling? Actually i think siege tank is fine as it is: it's not a no brainer unit despite the fact they auto attack, with splash and huge dmg (stackable) cause you have to put them sieged in the right place to make them effective.
I think the problem with terran is that they don't see how effectivetheir units are: remind me when terran started loosing cause they where thinking hellion harass couldn't do any dmg to zerg so they stopped building these units. The fact is that they force zerg to build tower, additionnal, queens, and to drone a little less, denied creeping: that was effective. Same thing with the period marauder disapeared of bio composition: they weren't there to tank anymore unmicroed gling or bane (taking the aggro) so terran started to whine about them loosing against "no brain zerg". Same with ultra greedy play, stopping making a PF on third and complaining about zergling harass (big lol).
You can't have plain stupid unit in you army compo, siege tank is more than a simple splash ranged auto-a unit , it needs the player to be clever and to place them sieged at the right place and the right moment. That force the opponnent to fight later, to take the fight perfectly (not a+click) etc..., this game is not all about range or dmg, it's about advantage you can't see with simple stats..
You need to learn how to make a proper poll on TL. Your poll sounds too neutral and objective that is why everyone voted "no." It should be more like this:
Do you think the current super boring tanks should receive a change?
A. No. I like boring and stale matchups and am afraid of change. or B. Yes. The tank needs to be changed.
That is how you get the poll results to look like you want them.
+15 damage to non-armored units, Fusion Core upgrade. It would have an easier time against zealots and archons, and i think against units like zerglings and marines would not be as OP as that...
On November 10 2012 05:51 Ramone wrote: Isn't the tank a key unit in both PvT and PvZ in most games that go into the mid game or longer? It seems to be working pretty effectively there..In PvP, it's not the go-to unit, but it's still good for fortifying bases, 1/1/1 builds, and early marine tank pushes. It could probably use a verrrry minor tweak vs protoss, but they have to be careful because in certain situations, even against protoss, tanks can be extremely powerful.
lol.
Indeed. In PvP it's a beast and used all the time actually.
On November 11 2012 00:36 NeonFox wrote: I don't get all these threads about "reworking" the siege tank or medivac. Both are used, a lot, and are fine the way they are.
Aside from the fact that a Protoss army can a-move into a perfectly positioned 200/200 mech army, and come out on top.
No unit composition with only ground units should be able to win against a well positioned mech army.
TL,DR: buff sieged damage, nerf unsieged damage + increase siege/unsiege time. sieged tanks are now awesome even TvP while you have to leapfrog foreward because getting caught unsieged gets worse.
One thing that was cool about the WC3 mortar team was that you could manually tell it to keep firing at a certain area. You would select an area and the mortar team would repeatedly keep firing shots at that area, ignoring everything else.
I dunno if it would be broken or not, but maybe this option could be added to the SC2 seige tank. For one, because the damage range of the seige tank is greater than its' vision. Thus, you could tell a seige tank to target fire an area that's not in your vision but where you think the enemy army is. This would add some cool micro imho. Also, you could tell tanks to blindly target fire on high ground without having vision there. This was a tactic that was used in WC3 from time to time.
I really loved WC3 and thought this was a really cool feature to the mortar team. I know SC2 is a different game so I'm not sure if that ability would really fit in here. Just throwing out something to think about.
Buff it with three upgrades, cheapest one to let it fire out of its vision (very fun idea of shizaep), other increasing damage on the shields (to help mech versus protoss) and a expensive one to reduce its own friendly fire damage (I mean tanks firing near tanks) wich gives an "special armor" while adding one or two second in siege/unsiege animations and may be a little slow in unsiege speed (more positional play, harder tank lines).
On November 11 2012 00:52 StarscreamG1 wrote: +15 damage to non-armored units, Fusion Core upgrade. It would have an easier time against zealots and archons, and i think against units like zerglings and marines would not be as OP as that...
Making the Marine viable in TvT, to stop Viking Tank was the main reason for the last damage nerf to the tank. and 50 -15 to light would solve the archon/queen problem. Zealots are more or less hard fixed by Hellbats. But I guess they want to keep their damage system all in the positives.
And hope they won't nerf their attack mode as I really like this mode to be effective also. Personally I would love if they would add a special shot to increase the defensive ability, creating a voidzone of some sort. Little cost little channeling time so it is easy to dodge. Would not scale with the amount of tanks you have. So small groups of tanks would be considerably stronger with this, while large groups would only have the same benefit.
But for now I am really curious on what Blizzard will change on the old units. But I guess they still have some work to do on the HotS ones.
On November 11 2012 00:36 NeonFox wrote: I don't get all these threads about "reworking" the siege tank or medivac. Both are used, a lot, and are fine the way they are.
Aside from the fact that a Protoss army can a-move into a perfectly positioned 200/200 mech army, and come out on top.
No unit composition with only ground units should be able to win against a well positioned mech army.
Uhhh, what? A ground army thats microd better damn sure should win against a well positioned mech army. I agree tanks right now are weak but too many terrans want them to be turned into god mode.
Tanks are really just fine as they are now, straight up buffing them to make them viable in TvP is a terrible move as that will break mech even more in TvZ and TvT. In those matches mech is already a must in HotS (it's just better than bio) and any buff to the tank will increase that problem basically. The tank doesn't need a general buff because it's good enough as is in 2 out of 3 terran matchups. It could use a buff in TvP if people are dead set on making mech viable there but there are tons of ways to go about that, the immortal could also just be changed for example as that is the actual problem the tank faces in TvP, for the rest they are about fine already.
On November 11 2012 08:37 Markwerf wrote: Tanks are really just fine as they are now, straight up buffing them to make them viable in TvP is a terrible move as that will break mech even more in TvZ and TvT. In those matches mech is already a must in HotS (it's just better than bio) and any buff to the tank will increase that problem basically. The tank doesn't need a general buff because it's good enough as is in 2 out of 3 terran matchups. It could use a buff in TvP if people are dead set on making mech viable there but there are tons of ways to go about that, the immortal could also just be changed for example as that is the actual problem the tank faces in TvP, for the rest they are about fine already.
Actually, people seem to be heavily mistaken. It's not just immortals that are an issue for mech, it's the fact late game archons are so easy to warp in and they completely DESTROY mech due to the fact they do not die without EMPs. Getting an archon late game is a lot easier than getting a ghost/then enough energy for the required EMPs.
It seems to me that the siege tank is not a unit that sees much action anymore. It's been nerfed by blizzard to the point where we don't see terrible damage like we did in BW. I'd like to propose a change that would make the siege tank even more exciting to watch as a spectator and more viable in high level play.
The mortar in WC3 was a unit that did lots of damage. However, the projectiles shot a bit too fast and they were not really dodgeable. However, if we rethink the concept of projectiles, I think we could make it work in SC2. And of course they would be dodgeable, so the micro factor would be there, however the radius would be large enough that it would not be too easy for even progamers if there were a lot of siege tanks attacking at the same time.
In addition, the fact that the projectiles are dodgeable would make it so Blizzard would be ok with increasing the damage to a nice level.
1. Give the siege tank projectile weaponry 2. Make it do splash damage with a 2.0 radius 3. Give it a projectile speed of 6.25 4. Increase the projectile range of 17 in siege mode 5. Make the projectile damage equal to 70 within a 1.5 radius, and 40 damage for the outside 0.5 radius. 6. Give the projectiles a unit size equivalent to the battle hellion with a cannon shell-like design.
I am sure that this would make the siege tank a more used and fun unit to watch, regardless of whether or not mech is used.
Poll: Do you think the siege tank needs a change?
Yes (80)
87%
No (12)
13%
92 total votes
Your vote: Do you think the siege tank needs a change?
Poll: What do YOU think would be the best change for siege tanks?
Decrease supply to 2 (31)
45%
Research upgrade to siege mode to increase damage/negate shield armor (22)
32%
Screw tanks, make fungal growth a projectile! (9)
13%
Negate shield armor (3)
4%
Faster attack speed (3)
4%
Increase siege mode range (1)
1%
69 total votes
Your vote: What do YOU think would be the best change for siege tanks?
(Vote): Negate shield armor (Vote): Faster attack speed (Vote): Decrease supply to 2 (Vote): Increase siege mode range (Vote): Research upgrade to siege mode to increase damage/negate shield armor (Vote): Screw tanks, make fungal growth a projectile!
Poll: What nerfs to the tank would you be willing to accept with a tank buff
Slower siege mode transformation (44)
88%
Decreased attack speed in siege mode (3)
6%
Tank attack becomes a projectile (3)
6%
Increase siege mode range (0)
0%
50 total votes
Your vote: What nerfs to the tank would you be willing to accept with a tank buff
(Vote): Slower siege mode transformation (Vote): Decreased attack speed in siege mode (Vote): Tank attack becomes a projectile (Vote): Increase siege mode range
Thank you for taking the time to read this thread. Please share your thoughts!
Also, since HOTS beta is the testing ground for reworking older units, if someone could please post this thread in the HOTS section of blizz forums I would appreciate it. I don't have a beta key!
mmm... yes.. Not used vs zerg or terran or protoss at all...
TL,DR: buff sieged damage, nerf unsieged damage + increase siege/unsiege time. sieged tanks are now awesome even TvP while you have to leapfrog foreward because getting caught unsieged gets worse.
This is such a good suggestion. This is what I have been saying since WoL beta when they just nerfed tank damage a few times. Also hope they implement this suggestion. Might work well with spider mines to make well positioned mech scary.
TL,DR: buff sieged damage, nerf unsieged damage + increase siege/unsiege time. sieged tanks are now awesome even TvP while you have to leapfrog foreward because getting caught unsieged gets worse.
This wont make Tanks better, because that is basically turning them into a Turret. Against Zerg it is always a "mobility battle" and making the sieging and unsieging longer is a terrible idea. It is ALWAYS a question "can the Terran siege quickly enough"? Usually he cant.
I am just now watching the G-Star Invitational HotS game between Marine King and Leenock and MKP uses Widow Mines en masse in advance positions against a Zerg with mass Swarm Hosts. MKP also has tanks but never sieges them, because the friendly fire would kill his own widow mines ... kinda stupid to make unsieged damage lower then.
The REAL problem of the tanks is that any opposing infantry gets close enough too fast and in too big numbers so the tanks die "instantly" if they are sieged because each of them fires one shot (which doesnt kill the whole wave) and then begins to kill his friends with the second shot, because the opposing infantry is close enough. That is the real reason why Siege Tanks are terribly bad to use.
"Leapfrogging forward" doesnt work in SC2, because you will be forced to spread out your forces too much and then the combined army of the opponent can either go around you OR kill your siege tanks off piece by piece without losing an equivalent amount. Making the Siege Tank deal so much damage that it destroys anything that gets close enough is a bad idea, because that will make the unit totally OP in any early situation with just two of them and a handful of opposing units.
Tanks really aren't that bad They do decent damage sure it's not as high as BW but Tank contains are still a threat in PvT and They are almost used in every TvT and TvZ I don't really see them as underpowered in the slightest.
On November 11 2012 15:53 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Tanks really aren't that bad They do decent damage sure it's not as high as BW but Tank contains are still a threat in PvT and They are almost used in every TvT and TvZ I don't really see them as underpowered in the slightest.
Tanks have two problems: 1. They die almost instantly in engagements to masses of infantry and that is boring/underwhelming for a unit that is supposed to be TOUGH and LONG LASTING. Thus they have become a "throw away unit". [Often enough players never bother with repairing mech units, because they will only get one shot off anyways and the micro involved costs too much attention. SC2 is more about being able to (re)produce stuff fast enough.] 2. Siege Tanks are NOT affected by the Terran "production boost" - the Reactor - while most of the core units from other races and styles are. Since the tank is THE core unit that defines "mech" it is disadvantaged quite heavily.
A problem I foresee is that units can get into melee too fast. Zerglings/zealots can just run up to the tanks and then your tanks can't dodge your own projectiles.
This could be a good idea for a new spellcaster though. A 25/50 mana mini-nuke (smaller AoE, smaller damage, but much shorter delay). Possibly on the raven? Although that may be too good for harassment vs workers. Maybe +damage vs armor could fix that... The balancing could be done by someone better than myself at the game -.-.
On November 11 2012 16:06 LAN-f34r wrote: This could be a good idea for a new spellcaster though. A 25/50 mana mini-nuke (smaller AoE, smaller damage, but much shorter delay). Possibly on the raven? Although that may be too good for harassment vs workers. Maybe +damage vs armor could fix that... The balancing could be done by someone better than myself at the game -.-.
On November 11 2012 16:06 LAN-f34r wrote: A problem I foresee is that units can get into melee too fast. Zerglings/zealots can just run up to the tanks and then your tanks can't dodge your own projectiles.
This could be a good idea for a new spellcaster though. A 25/50 mana mini-nuke (smaller AoE, smaller damage, but much shorter delay). Possibly on the raven? Although that may be too good for harassment vs workers. Maybe +damage vs armor could fix that... The balancing could be done by someone better than myself at the game -.-.
A new spell wont "fix" this problem unless it is an instant spell (kinda like Fungal) and they are pretty boring.
Why do people think that the solution is to make the game more complex by adding more instead of taking away something?
The easiest and best solution IMO is to get rid of the forced tight movement and the unlimited unit selection (in addition to increasing the AoE damage and area a bit). This will fix several problems at once (after a slight readjustment of the units maybe). 1. Siege Tanks wont die as easily as they do anymore and thus mech could become more viable. 2. The unit density for infantry will be lower and thus defensive structures and positions (like Siege Tanks and Bunkers "out in the wild") will be more viable AND the attacker will have to "work" to break through a defensive player instead of having the advantage. 3. More strategies - apart from "keep all your fighting units together and dance around the enemy until one of them blinks and makes a wrong step" - will become a necessity due to an increased defenders advantage. Things like "use hallucinations to draw tank fire" or "use Viper spells to try and break a siege line" or "try and go around the siege line with a Nydus Worm/Recall from a Mothership" or ... will finally see the light of day and make watching the game much more interesting. 4. The deathball is going to be much less efficient than it is now and this is a goal people would love to see accomplished.
I consider the Siege Tank to be the best designed unit in the game, because it combines POWER with a DISADVANTAGE. There is no disadvantage to keeping your units in a tight clump with the exception of risking to lose a lot to Banelings. Thats it and Banelings are too powerful in that regard anyways. For the same reason it wouldn be a good idea to give Siege Tanks more damage. Instead of seeing a mass of units die to green goo we would just see lots of stuff die to fairly colorless explosions. Boring and OP. So "less is more" ...
If anyone finds a flaw in this reasoning - other than "Blizzard wont do it" (which isnt a flaw in the reasoning at all) - let me know.
The hardened shields kill the Tank. I can't suggest the removal of the Immortal, but the Tank could bypass the Shield with an upgrade. Like "Flashing Projectile" or something, insinuating that the projectile is so fast the shield is unable to power up.
from experience with other games i think that projectiles from artillery units then should be able to be fired with a "ground attack" ability. because targeting certain units with tank shots (speedbanes) wouldnt be possible anymore with a delayed impact. anyway i dont like the idea for sc2, because it somehow just doesn´t fit the game at all imo.
On November 11 2012 20:14 cythaze wrote: from experience with other games i think that projectiles from artillery units then should be able to be fired with a "ground attack" ability. because targeting certain units with tank shots (speedbanes) wouldnt be possible anymore with a delayed impact. anyway i dont like the idea for sc2, because it somehow just doesn´t fit the game at all imo.
Being able to attack a spot on the ground would make the Siege Tank MUCH more viable by being able to create a "death zone" at a choke and to precisely target the "empty space" between sieged tanks to avoid friendly fire on the tanks). The thing is that this gain in control/power does come at a price, because you are less able to react with "emergency units" like Hellions and Marines.
The ability to attack a spot on the ground does fit in very well with the Siege Tank design, because it is power that comes at a price. Due to the incredible importance of mobility in SC2 I highly doubt that it would make the Siege Tank too powerful, but if you give this ability to the Siege Tank you should also give it to other siege units like the Colossus and maybe even the Broodlord. That last bit would be enormously OP due to the generated free units which can easily be used to block an army while the BL would be even further away. Ground attack for the Colossus might be a benefit though, because it slows down that unit and decreases its mobility (if you use the attack method).
Please don't try to make star 2 more like war3, I know a lot of people switched to it when it came out and enjoyed it, mainly because it's graphics were better and it's like 500 times easier than bw, but star 2 already has a hero unit, we don't need more of that shit. I don't think the tank itself is the problem, if there was a mech unit with a really high rate of fire and little damage you could easily use those to target fire hardened shields away from immortals and then just target fire them with tanks.
I don't think the tank itself is the problem, if there was a mech unit with a really high rate of fire and little damage you could easily use those to target fire hardened shields away from immortals and then just target fire them with tanks.
That's what I'd like to see added to mech. Some kind of semi-mobile gatling gun turret, that once positioned, had a low damage attack but really high rate of fire. It would shred shield-based stuff like Immortal Hardened shields and Archons, and armorless light units like Mutas, but against heavier armored units it'd be very weak.
I don't think the tank itself is the problem, if there was a mech unit with a really high rate of fire and little damage you could easily use those to target fire hardened shields away from immortals and then just target fire them with tanks.
That's what I'd like to see added to mech. Some kind of semi-mobile gatling gun turret, that once positioned, had a low damage attack but really high rate of fire. It would shred shield-based stuff like Immortal Hardened shields and Archons, and armorless light units like Mutas, but against heavier armored units it'd be very weak.
I don't think the tank itself is the problem, if there was a mech unit with a really high rate of fire and little damage you could easily use those to target fire hardened shields away from immortals and then just target fire them with tanks.
That's what I'd like to see added to mech. Some kind of semi-mobile gatling gun turret, that once positioned, had a low damage attack but really high rate of fire. It would shred shield-based stuff like Immortal Hardened shields and Archons, and armorless light units like Mutas, but against heavier armored units it'd be very weak.
like landed vikings or an autoturret?
I do think landed vikings getting a buff could be a direction for fixing mech in TvP. I think giving Terran another unit could be cool because I feel like Hellbats and Mines aren't really as cool and impactful an addition as the new units other races got. But if Blizzard doesn't want to do that, changing the landed Vikings attack from 12 every second to something like 6/6 every .8 seconds would really let them shred shields and unarmored units, while leaving them vulnerable to high armor units--the very units tanks are necessary to punch through.
I don't think the tank itself is the problem, if there was a mech unit with a really high rate of fire and little damage you could easily use those to target fire hardened shields away from immortals and then just target fire them with tanks.
That's what I'd like to see added to mech. Some kind of semi-mobile gatling gun turret, that once positioned, had a low damage attack but really high rate of fire. It would shred shield-based stuff like Immortal Hardened shields and Archons, and armorless light units like Mutas, but against heavier armored units it'd be very weak.
like landed vikings or an autoturret?
I do think landed vikings getting a buff could be a direction for fixing mech in TvP. I think giving Terran another unit could be cool because I feel like Hellbats and Mines aren't really as cool and impactful an addition as the new units other races got. But if Blizzard doesn't want to do that, changing the landed Vikings attack from 12 every second to something like 6/6 every .8 seconds would really let them shred shields and unarmored units, while leaving them vulnerable to high armor units--the very units tanks are necessary to punch through.
honestly making landed vikings actually good would be like the best thing ever right now they just feel like HERE GUYS LOOK IT CAN TRANSFORMZ
Shit is way to mobile in this game everything moves at the speed of light and playing with set up weapons in such a bitch in this game. Need perfect reads to make it work thats the problem vs some donk that runs a blob arround. Even some protoss supposed siege weapon walks fast and can go up and down cliffs for rofl sakes. Go look at BW, all these kinds of powerfull weapons are super slow and require additional baby and units to function (reaver shuttle, spider mines on flanks etc etc).
On November 11 2012 19:51 nucLeaRTV wrote: The hardened shields kill the Tank. I can't suggest the removal of the Immortal, but the Tank could bypass the Shield with an upgrade. Like "Flashing Projectile" or something, insinuating that the projectile is so fast the shield is unable to power up.
I recommend the ghosts. It's a special elite unit which is able to destroy shields with a spell called "EMP". Would be sick if Blizzard would implement that.
Imo opinnion every units should have dodgeable projectiles. Like total anahilation. Makes for more micro. But blizzard isnt going to do this. Its to warcrafty ^^
- Rework the pathing engine so that units don't clump into deathballs. - Remove the "smart fire" feature that makes tanks and other similar units not overkill so that they are more sensible to micro and positioning. - Double the damage of tanks (okay, double may be abit over the top, but 30-50% more damage would be ok). - ??? - PROFIT.
Srsly, the worst problem of this game is the retarded pathing engine. You only need a programmer and a game designer working together for a week to fix this.
On November 10 2012 09:44 Fungal Growth wrote: This buff is urgently needed and long overdue. TvP has become too formulaic and one-dimensional with bio. HOTS can not survive as a an e-sport if pro's keep doing the same bio builds over and over and over and over...
Now replace T with Z, and replace bio with roach/ling into GGlord/Infestor. And yes, I play Zerg.
On November 10 2012 10:41 Blackfeather wrote: i would like the siege tank to feel more like a siege unit. imo they should buff the damage and reduce the speed or the buildup time. and remove smartshooting, it's such a stupid idea to give this to tanks.
also siege mode tech would probably need a higher research time if the tank is buffed. btw i dont think that making it two supply would be justified, it's way to strong for a two supply unit.
Well to counter the siege tank being too good for a two supply unit just check out the infestors man the spells on this unit is just too good in my opinion for it to be a two supply (probably not justified too). Fungal growth just kills everything it is casted on.
the infestor are pretty much regarded as being heavily on the edge of being op/supply, and in difference to tanks are a unit which's necessary micro to make it work scales with the number of units. apart from that their dps doesnt outright stack and they are range 9 not 13. And it's the only real power unit zerg has, in difference to terran which also has the marine, and the viking and medivac to some extend. i wouldnt use the infestor as the primary example for how good a unit has to be for 2 supply, a good 2 supply non-spellcaster unit has to be somewhere between the hydra and the marauder. And the siege tank is stronger than both.
On November 10 2012 09:44 Fungal Growth wrote: This buff is urgently needed and long overdue. TvP has become too formulaic and one-dimensional with bio. HOTS can not survive as a an e-sport if pro's keep doing the same bio builds over and over and over and over...
Now replace T with Z, and replace bio with roach/ling into GGlord/Infestor. And yes, I play Zerg.
and replace Z with P and replace blord/infestor with colossus(/ht). And i played toss and now dota2 .
On November 12 2012 07:38 BluzMan wrote: Fixing tanks is really easy.
- Rework the pathing engine so that units don't clump into deathballs. - Remove the "smart fire" feature that makes tanks and other similar units not overkill so that they are more sensible to micro and positioning. - Double the damage of tanks (okay, double may be abit over the top, but 30-50% more damage would be ok). - ??? - PROFIT.
Srsly, the worst problem of this game is the retarded pathing engine. You only need a programmer and a game designer working together for a week to fix this.
they wont fix the pathing, it's too much of a core design. they would have to recreate the game from zero again if they did that. and i wouldnt see the problem with smart fire if the pathing was fixed. i just think the way it is now is stupid. btw blocking banes already requires micro.
The athing is actually good - that's the difference to BW where it was crappy. Units are just choosing the shortest path and since you click on one point they will clump up.
This cannot really be fixed, but unit size could be increased, range decreased (as someone was suggesting to decrease all ranges by 1) or make units have a set small amount of spacing between each other.
People are overestimating immortals against tanks. Yes, in a vacuum of pure immortals vs pure tanks, immortals win. But at the start of a fight, immortals are often wasting tons of attacks against hellions, and immortals, frankly, do very poor damage to those. Get one EMP off on an immortal and tanks annihilate it almost immediately.
Tanks should just be lowered to 2 supply. Only change needed, increases the max power of the mech army without increasing the mid-game power. It puts the emphasis on the protoss to harass and limit the strength of terran, rather than building a super army to straight up kill it, and it isn't a significant buff to mech in TvZ since it doesn't help mech combat broodlords, and with a 2 supply tank, they likely won't be maxed with more tanks in time for the broods anyway.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zVdov.jpg)
and T = 
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