|
ZvX:
Sandworms and Sandtrout Build (SS, or Dune Build, lol idk, want to give it a Dune-SciFi name :p )
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CCLfe.jpg) *image courtesy of Existor, nice find! :D
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8HOR5.jpg)
Creep! Shall cover this place! And Creep... Will cover you...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aJ8SO.jpg)
Adding insult to injury: Tumors in your main
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mc6TR.jpg)
A plague of locusts upon thee!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yVGjr.jpg)
May your knife chip and shatter!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4l3GS.jpg)
You have simply delayed the inevitable, Shai'hulud and his spawn will wash over you all like the Corriolis Winds...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aEyWX.jpg)
Oh yeah, Mothership Cores can detect... Well Hydras can fix that...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v26AG.jpg)
You held well, but your supplies run short...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uW1C8.jpg)
Yes, GG indeed!
Overview
Essentially, the goal is to get swarm hosts (locusts=sandtrout, hehe) in their main (or at worst, attacking the front) via nydus (the sandworm), with some support units, e.g. speedlings/roaches/hydras, all the while feigning a 2-3base econ/passive build with a quick double gas in the main prior to nat hatch finishing. So far, it seems to work well vs terran and protoss, though with finese, viable for zvz, too. If done properly, I've found it arrives in their main at about the 8minute mark. Also, if they're countering, consider bouncing units back through the nydus to home base to defend.
Inspiration
Wings of Liberty game this evening, G1 of Leenock  vs Oz  in the recent MLG, where Leenock did...
+ Show Spoiler +
...a feigned 3 base econ build vs Oz's ffe, and after denying the scout probe, gets double gas in the main, lair first then speedling boost, then hydra den and nydus upon lair completion, and pours out lings, all rallied to the nydus, and nyduses Oz's main with speedling hydra, and brings in a queen at one point to creep tumor Oz's main, and proceeds to a narrow victory.
I thought, hmm, how about swarmhosts as the focal unit?
Build Order
It's kind of subjective, but you don't want to raise the alarm of the opponent, and appear as best you can to be fast expanding and droneing hard (which you kind of are doing).
send first olord outside the nat, behind it off the cliff or so for watching nat expo timing, gas timing, etc.
second olord to babysit nat (except vs zerg)
9 overlord
(send out a drone scout to see whats up, harrass, block, etc, typical scout antics of your choosing, after 13thdrone started, depending on your multitasking skills)
15-16 hatch
14-17 pool (or 15pool 16 hatch, your choice, though i'm a hatch first fan, and hatch first makes it look all the more of a passive build, food for thought... goal is to seem like the typical greedy zerg...)
16 olord
-consider making a pair or two (1-2larvae= 2-4lings) of slowlings to deny the scout, and maybe a drone to tail the scout as soon as it arrives, but eventually position the lings near the narrowest choke to keep prying eyes out the main, want to hide the double gas as best you can.
pool completes-queen at both main and nat
double gas at main shortly upon denying the scout, goal is to have 100gas once queen is done in the main, or shortly thereafter.
@first 100gas-Lair
@second 100gas-speedling boost
bank the rest, consider evos, roaches and ups if you want to delay the attack but be safer
Now during this waiting period, I prefer to scout with a single ling or two, grab a tower or two, poke around for proxies, essentially to make sure you're safe to drone, and drone as heavily as possible, goal to get 16 drones on minerals at both main and nat, and if possible, further 6 drones and extractors if you have the resources/larvae to spare, and hit all your injects you can.
before Lair completion, be considering your pit placement, personally like to creep pee off in a corner of my main thats less likely to be spotted, and get a drone over there and the olord in position to take a creep piss upon lair completion
@Lair completion-infestation pit (takes 50 game seconds ((Gsecs)) to complete)
@30/50Gsec pit completion, start nydus near main takes 50 GSec, and Nydus-exit takes 17ish GSec, iirc, so goal is to be loading it with 2 swarmhosts right as the nydus-exit in their main is finishing, hotkey the nydus, and rally both hatches (and macro hatch or 3rd expo hatch ((if 3rd expo hatch, consider making an exit there after 1st successful offensive nydus)) if you had the spare funds for them at some point in there) to the nydus.
@pit completion-as many swarm hosts as possible, likely can make 2 (remember 3 supply each, so watch your olord counts, and of course, goes without saying, don't ever get supply blocked during this whole process, as in any build)
then, nydus their main, and flood with speedlings as well, burrow those hosts and point their locusts upon exit, consider instantly making another nydus at the natural, and meanwhile just pour on the hosts/lings and injects back home, consider taking a 3rd or 4th base, drone intermittently, essentially micro the battle, reinforce via nydus, consider making hydras or sending queens through for aa/creep tumoring, but i advise bringing queens back and forth to the home for intermittent injects, or consider making more queens back home, and get a hive started and a spire started during this if they're holding on to life still.
So far, it's working well for me, and if they're pros at denying your nydus exit, consider planting it outside the front a ways, close enough for aggression, but main point is to get swarm hosts near their base (if not, preferably, in it) rather than walking them slowly cross map.
Problem though in ZvZ is when the opponent insists on early agression off 1-1.5 bases, typical ling bane roach stuff, which I'd advise double evo wall at nat with RW and spines, maybe roaches too, and hell since you have the evos at this point, consider range+1 carapace+1.
Also, I like to turn one or more of my spotter olords (want 2-3 olords around their base on different ends for nydus-planting spotter-duty) into seers, in order to deal with widow mines (and send locusts at the mines keeping seer just out of widowmine's range), spotting observers (queen snipe any you see, then send queens back home, or hydras if you went that route), spotting burrow micro/other swarmhosts, etc.
Enjoy! And please offer pointers and ways to smooth out the build, feedback appreciated! 
Replays
soon to come, stay tuned...
Post-Writing of the Guide tips and ideas
So I tried something, delaying gas till mineral saturation on 2bases (Spanishiwa style), then getting all four gas at once and proceeding in the aforementioned tech order. This route lands the nydus at around 9:30 min in Game Time, delaying things by 1:30 minutes. This although delays the attack, lands prior to many 10minute pushes, and allows for a safer tech transition and possibly grabbing your third. Fyi
|
SH/corruptors(even though u didnt get them, its implied you will do it soon after the initial nydus containplus expo)/overseer is an OP compo currently, for zvp midgame at least. swarm hosts as the numbersgets bigger can be very tough to break without proper surround and AOE, corruptors take care of pesky obs and colossus.
Eventually the final outcome endgame wld still be bl/infestor/corruptor with a sprinkling of maybe viper/SH
good to see a build that hammers in the agression earlier
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Call it differently:
Siege Mushroom Dances
|
holy fuck totally forgot they had these new nydus worms
thanks for the guide, looks fun :D really annoying as non zergs i think, but definitely fun as zerg. very zergy
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 04 2012 17:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
holy fuck totally forgot they had these new nydus worms
thanks for the guide, looks fun :D really annoying as non zergs i think, but definitely fun as zerg. very zergy
They're removed two new nydus worms. These ones are standart nyduses
|
United Kingdom20285 Posts
This build, i like it
ANOTHER
|
|
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
I love this strategy a lot. Using some other arts, I've made one for your thread  Add this to 1st post as banner?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sgRp.jpg)
|
Haha I loved the comment at your pics 
Nice build as well, but maybe make the read a bit easier by splitting it in several one sentence steps for those who are too lazy to read. :>
|
On November 04 2012 18:33 Existor wrote:I love this strategy a lot. Using some other arts, I've made one for your thread
so sick. omg.
|
|
|
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Just name it "Mushroom Nyduses" or "Mushroom Dances" or "Nydus Hosts"
|
On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me. Let's just say the campaign for this expansion should be epic, and it will rock all your pre-conceived notions. Furthermore, are you even sure the Fremen of Dune (sandriders) are indeed the good guys? They're a bunch of religious primitives with barbaric practices, in desperate need of culture, education, real justice systems (other than, you raped my wife, no I didn't, well lets go out into the desert and see which one of us is eaten first by Shai'Hulud, and that man will obviously be the liar), and becoming more civilized...
Second, sure, I get it, SC2 is not Dune, I'm not an idiot. (I'll have you know I've read Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse:Dune, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune, The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino, and Paul of Dune, to name a few. I know, I know, I've left out the latest one, Sisterhood of Dune, which I've yet to read, or the biography/companions Road to Dune and Dreamer of Dune.)
But yes, I'm quite familiar with Dune, you may also have recognized that I've named myself after one of the characters, and without spoiling too much, if you haven't read it, which few are as versed in Dune as am I, but lets just say Duncan Idaho is quite the awesome character as the series goes onward... My apologies if in naming my build in honor of one of the greatest scifi's out there diminishes its glory, for that was by no means my intention. As for the widow mine, I made no comment that it's a "hunter seeker", nor do I have any illusions that it's the same thing. Perhaps a better name would be, oh, idk, the DuncanIdaho Build, that would be free of ANY Dune references, right? lol
On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome.
I do like this, its always great to have other units to support a nydus in production, and if "fatest possible" is not the goal, then sure, ITs are a great addition.
On November 04 2012 18:31 MilesTeg wrote:
I approve of the name.
Haha, as you should, Miles Teg :p hehe
|
On November 05 2012 12:56 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me. Let's just say the campaign for this expansion should be epic, and it will rock all your pre-conceived notions. Furthermore, are you even sure the Fremen of Dune (sandriders) are indeed the good guys? They're a bunch of religious primitives with barbaric practices, in desperate need of culture, education, real justice systems (other than, you raped my wife, no I didn't, well lets go out into the desert and see which one of us is eaten first by Shai'Hulud, and that man will obviously be the liar), and becoming more civilized... Second, sure, I get it, SC2 is not Dune, I'm not an idiot. (I'll have you know I've read Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse:Dune, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune, The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino, and Paul of Dune, to name a few. I know, I know, I've left out the latest one, Sisterhood of Dune, which I've yet to read, or the biography/companions Road to Dune and Dreamer of Dune.) But yes, I'm quite familiar with Dune, you may also know I've named myself after one of the characters, and without spoiling too much, if you haven't read it, which few are as versed in Dune as am I, but lets just say Duncan Idaho is quite the awesome character as the series goes onward... My apologies if in naming my build in honor of one of the greatest scifi's out there diminishes its glory, for that was by no means my intention. As for the widow mine, I made no comment that it's a "hunter seeker", nor do I have any illusions that it's the same thing. Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome. I do like this, its always great to have other units to support a nydus in production, and if "fatest possible" is not the goal, then sure, ITs are a great addition. Haha, as you should, Miles Teg :p hehe
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me.
That's definitely not how Zerg are made out to be...Zerg are the last thing FROM noble...They are mindless predatory killing machines who want to wipe out every last species in the galaxy.
If you're talking about that WoL "slip up" the dev. covered that and said that all the Overmind wanted was for Zerg to be able to function autonomously, not be "free and joyous..." The overmind was hardcoded with ONE objective...to assimilate all life in the universe. It was genetically coded to have ONE purpose in life...I don't see how you can claim that to be a noble purpose...
I don't understand how you could call a hive mind race that wishes to wipe out ALL life on the galaxy NOBLE.
As for the Terran...they're humans dude. Are you making some nihilistic comment on humanity? And the protoss (if you know the lore from the first game), at least Tassadar deliberately STOP incinerating planets so that Terrans like Raynor can escape.
Just gotta get this straight.
|
On November 05 2012 13:10 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 12:56 DuncanIdaho wrote:On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me. Let's just say the campaign for this expansion should be epic, and it will rock all your pre-conceived notions. Furthermore, are you even sure the Fremen of Dune (sandriders) are indeed the good guys? They're a bunch of religious primitives with barbaric practices, in desperate need of culture, education, real justice systems (other than, you raped my wife, no I didn't, well lets go out into the desert and see which one of us is eaten first by Shai'Hulud, and that man will obviously be the liar), and becoming more civilized... Second, sure, I get it, SC2 is not Dune, I'm not an idiot. (I'll have you know I've read Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse:Dune, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune, The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino, and Paul of Dune, to name a few. I know, I know, I've left out the latest one, Sisterhood of Dune, which I've yet to read, or the biography/companions Road to Dune and Dreamer of Dune.) But yes, I'm quite familiar with Dune, you may also know I've named myself after one of the characters, and without spoiling too much, if you haven't read it, which few are as versed in Dune as am I, but lets just say Duncan Idaho is quite the awesome character as the series goes onward... My apologies if in naming my build in honor of one of the greatest scifi's out there diminishes its glory, for that was by no means my intention. As for the widow mine, I made no comment that it's a "hunter seeker", nor do I have any illusions that it's the same thing. On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome. I do like this, its always great to have other units to support a nydus in production, and if "fatest possible" is not the goal, then sure, ITs are a great addition. On November 04 2012 18:31 MilesTeg wrote:
I approve of the name. Haha, as you should, Miles Teg :p hehe Show nested quote +
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me.
That's definitely not how Zerg are made out to be...Zerg are the last thing FROM noble...They are mindless predatory killing machines who want to wipe out every last species in the galaxy. If you're talking about that WoL "slip up" the dev. covered that and said that all the Overmind wanted was for Zerg to be able to function autonomously, not be "free and joyous..." The overmind was hardcoded with ONE objective...to assimilate all life in the universe. It was genetically coded to have ONE purpose in life...I don't see how you can claim that to be a noble purpose... I don't understand how you could call a hive mind race that wishes to wipe out ALL life on the galaxy NOBLE. As for the Terran...they're humans dude. Are you making some nihilistic comment on humanity? And the protoss (if you know the lore from the first game), at least Tassadar deliberately STOP incinerating planets so that Terrans like Raynor can escape. Just gotta get this straight.
So, assimilation can't be noble? I don't know dude, but keep in mind they're a different species, who don't necessarily understand other sentient creatures, though maybe they do. Read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, there's some great moral stories there about xenocide and misunderstandings, and the whole notion of good or evil. Personally, I refuse to think in terms of good/bad guys. I'll admit that the Terrans are roughly the "protagonists" as are the Fremen of Dune, but to say protagonist=good guy is not necessarily the case, for what is good? Dr. Horrible of Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog, Kratos of God of War, Dexter from, erm, Dexter, just to name a few protagonists with "shades of grey" when it comes to "good". And as for nihilist comments about humanity, sure why not, maybe we aren't noble simply because it's us. Typically, no one thinks of him/her/itself as "the bad guy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism is a great link to read, perhaps your idea of nihilist=bad word is much like communist=bad word, Jesus= good word, etc. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, or Bill O'Reilly, please.
And for the record, it's widely agreed in certain circles that Neo, of The Matrix, is a postmodernist Nihilist. Guess he's a bad guy, eh? :p
All I was suggesting is the argument that sandworms and sandtrout are the "good guys" and therefore cannot ever be used to compare analogously to the nydus and swarm host which are "bad guys" is quite simplistic. Technically, they're both arguably mindless beasts that just go about surviving by any means necessary, perhaps more similar than one might think.
Oh, but the sandworms are controlled by the Fremen humans, to a great extent, sort of. Well what of the Psi Disruptor? Or Kerrigan? Oh no, that's not a Terran controlling the Zerg, no not at all... heh
But regardless, I digress. Let's try to stay on topic here, hehe
|
On November 05 2012 13:25 DuncanIdaho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 13:10 Qwyn wrote:On November 05 2012 12:56 DuncanIdaho wrote:On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me. Let's just say the campaign for this expansion should be epic, and it will rock all your pre-conceived notions. Furthermore, are you even sure the Fremen of Dune (sandriders) are indeed the good guys? They're a bunch of religious primitives with barbaric practices, in desperate need of culture, education, real justice systems (other than, you raped my wife, no I didn't, well lets go out into the desert and see which one of us is eaten first by Shai'Hulud, and that man will obviously be the liar), and becoming more civilized... Second, sure, I get it, SC2 is not Dune, I'm not an idiot. (I'll have you know I've read Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse:Dune, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune, The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino, and Paul of Dune, to name a few. I know, I know, I've left out the latest one, Sisterhood of Dune, which I've yet to read, or the biography/companions Road to Dune and Dreamer of Dune.) But yes, I'm quite familiar with Dune, you may also know I've named myself after one of the characters, and without spoiling too much, if you haven't read it, which few are as versed in Dune as am I, but lets just say Duncan Idaho is quite the awesome character as the series goes onward... My apologies if in naming my build in honor of one of the greatest scifi's out there diminishes its glory, for that was by no means my intention. As for the widow mine, I made no comment that it's a "hunter seeker", nor do I have any illusions that it's the same thing. On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome. I do like this, its always great to have other units to support a nydus in production, and if "fatest possible" is not the goal, then sure, ITs are a great addition. On November 04 2012 18:31 MilesTeg wrote:
I approve of the name. Haha, as you should, Miles Teg :p hehe
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me.
That's definitely not how Zerg are made out to be...Zerg are the last thing FROM noble...They are mindless predatory killing machines who want to wipe out every last species in the galaxy. If you're talking about that WoL "slip up" the dev. covered that and said that all the Overmind wanted was for Zerg to be able to function autonomously, not be "free and joyous..." The overmind was hardcoded with ONE objective...to assimilate all life in the universe. It was genetically coded to have ONE purpose in life...I don't see how you can claim that to be a noble purpose... I don't understand how you could call a hive mind race that wishes to wipe out ALL life on the galaxy NOBLE. As for the Terran...they're humans dude. Are you making some nihilistic comment on humanity? And the protoss (if you know the lore from the first game), at least Tassadar deliberately STOP incinerating planets so that Terrans like Raynor can escape. Just gotta get this straight. So, assimilation can't be noble? I don't know dude, but keep in mind they're a different species, who don't necessarily understand other sentient creatures, though maybe they do. Read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, there's some great moral stories there about xenocide and misunderstandings, and the whole notion of good or evil. Personally, I refuse to think in terms of good/bad guys. I'll admit that the Terrans are roughly the "protagonists" as are the Fremen of Dune, but to say protagonist=good guy is not necessarily the case, for what is good? Dr. Horrible of Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog, Kratos of God of War, Dexter from, erm, Dexter, just to name a few protagonists with "shades of grey" when it comes to "good". And as for nihilist comments about humanity, sure why not, maybe we aren't noble simply because it's us. Typically, no one thinks of him/her/itself as "the bad guy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism is a great link to read, perhaps your idea of nihilist=bad word is much like communist=bad word, Jesus= good word, etc. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, or Bill O'Reilly, please. And for the record, it's widely agreed in certain circles that Neo, of The Matrix, is a postmodernist Nihilist. Guess he's a bad guy, eh? :p All I was suggesting is the argument that sandworms and sandtrout are the "good guys" and therefore cannot ever be used to compare analogously to the nydus and swarm host which are "bad guys" is quite simplistic. Technically, they're both arguably mindless beasts that just go about surviving by any means necessary, perhaps more similar than one might think. Oh, but the sandworms are controlled by the Fremen humans, to a great extent, sort of. Well what of the Psi Disruptor? Or Kerrigan? Oh no, that's not a Terran controlling the Zerg, no not at all... heh But regardless, I digress. Let's try to stay on topic here, hehe
+ Show Spoiler +It's just a matter of differing opinions. To suggest that there are no moral absolutes and only shades of gray is to effectively deny the concept of human morality and good v. evil as a valid interpretation of existance. To sass back, it's a view that has been adopted by a lot of liberal minded circles throughout the 20th century. It's common today to see this view held by the past few generations, especially with a high correlation among the scientific, atheists and the "logical."
I'm not denying that words and ideas bear connotations given by race, region, or religious practice and that these may not necessarily be true or adhered to only by those who are born with them or have been "converted."
I am of a different opinion regarding the Zerg than you, it seems. You see, I accept the human definition of morality to include not only action but intent, and understand that I see the world from a very human viewpoint and that what I come to understand as good and evil is absolute in the terms of my existance.
So looking at it from that lense, the idea that the Zerg were created by a race with the express orders of destroying every other species in the galaxy for genetic perfection is evil...why? Because the Zerg threaten the existance of not only humanity, but every other race in the galaxy and they do so at the personal desires of one being, who controls the Zerg through the Overmind...and later Kerrigan, who is evidenced to be evil (in the same way as the Overmind). Now if the Overmind were not expressed in the game as an obviously intelligent, sentient being, who bears malicious intent towards all life, and were merely a prisoner carrying out forced orders, then it would be different. It comes down to intent, not just action, especially when viewed through this "human" lense of mine.
When I said nihilist I was observing your moral viewpoint. To claim that the human moral viewpoint is abstractly contrived, that it does not exist, that what we claim to be good or evil is merely a wide variety of differing intents perpetuated by varying species, kinds, factions, groups, peoples...That there is no right or wrong, even in retrospect, is something I can't agree with.
Anyhow, as for the strategy itself, it looks really sick, even though I can't try it because I don't have the beta. But I have been experimenting with a lot of nydus play, especially with the hydralisk (using the nydus as a way to remove travel time and deny the third - hooray for TLO and his wonderful innovation).
It's something that is definitely very niche, until the nydus is changed to be more multipurpose. As it stands now there's no real reason to use the nydus because most units can get place to place on current map sizes simply by moving there...
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Name must contain one word, like Spanishiva Build or name of player's build
|
Great to see a post like this in the HotS forum! I'd love to test it with you (vT)
|
I like Nydus.
I love Dune.
This makes me happy =)
You should throw in some changelings(Face Dancers), Infested Terrans(gholas) and you should revoke the CHOAM and Landsraad memberships of any opponent who dares to use Atomics
|
So I tried something, delaying gas till mineral saturation on 2bases (Spanishiwa style), then getting all four gas at once and proceeding in the aforementioned tech order. This route lands the nydus at around 9:30 min in Game Time, delaying things by 1:30 minutes. Fyi
~Duncan Idaho
|
this looks really cool I cant wait to try it
|
I have a quick question.
I tried this strat a few times and if the opponent is caught unaware, it works very well.
My problem is if they spotted your nydus worm and/or have enough units/buildings around the base to spot the worm from popping out. How would you transit? Do you turtle up? Use the swarm hosts and army to d while taking a third (or a fourth)? Engage direct? Attack from 2-3 fronts?
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 07 2012 15:10 BigRedDog wrote:
I have a quick question.
I tried this strat a few times and if the opponent is caught unaware, it works very well.
My problem is if they spotted your nydus worm and/or have enough units/buildings around the base to spot the worm from popping out. How would you transit? Do you turtle up? Use the swarm hosts and army to d while taking a third (or a fourth)? Engage direct? Attack from 2-3 fronts?
Just while 1st nydus started spawning, spot location for another nydus. Enemy will not be able to shutdown 2 nyduses for same time.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Well, this strategy not works sometimes against skilled players. Sadly blizzard canceled all their nyduses
|
On November 07 2012 16:56 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 15:10 BigRedDog wrote:
I have a quick question.
I tried this strat a few times and if the opponent is caught unaware, it works very well.
My problem is if they spotted your nydus worm and/or have enough units/buildings around the base to spot the worm from popping out. How would you transit? Do you turtle up? Use the swarm hosts and army to d while taking a third (or a fourth)? Engage direct? Attack from 2-3 fronts?
Just while 1st nydus started spawning, spot location for another nydus. Enemy will not be able to shutdown 2 nyduses for same time.
Enemy not being able to kill two nydus, thats a joke .... Maybe in wood league....maybe
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Enemy not being able to kill two nydus, thats a joke .... Maybe in wood league....maybe
Then why not use Nydus-Reinforcer? That will be placed somewhere behind enemy wall. First you're trying to damage enym wall, at same time starting create nydus at main in the corner. Or vice-versa. Those lines are locust rally points
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IaJsu.png)
|
queen/sh/roach with nydus is really good against protoss.
You just open your normal 3 base vs FFE with double gas at 6, then quickly add 2 more. Get +1 ranged attack and a couple extra queens. Then at lair go for swarmhosts and roach speed and a nydus. Just go for 1 nydus a fair bit out of their base and place the swarm hosts there. The queens function as AA and put down a few tumors since creep effectively increases the range of your swarm hosts. Ideally you have a couple queens, 5-6 swarm hosts and the rest roach and you just start to whittle their base from there. The nydus doesn't need to be too close at all because swarm hosts with the upgrade and creep spread have huge range.
swarm host and roach is just quite a strong combination, the biggest weaknesses being air and large amounts of colossi. By hitting early and using queens for AA it's hard to stop, queens compliment swarm hosts so well by being able to spread creep and transfuse the hosts if they bumrush you, the problem of course is getting your queens over there and having some starting creep. For small maps just walking your queens over and using an overlord works quite well, for the bigger maps the nydus is great, there is just hardly any risk of the nydus getting killed because it doesn't even have to be close to them . The worst threat for nydus play now are oracles really
|
On December 04 2012 01:38 Markwerf wrote:
queen/sh/roach with nydus is really good against protoss.
You just open your normal 3 base vs FFE with double gas at 6, then quickly add 2 more. Get +1 ranged attack and a couple extra queens. Then at lair go for swarmhosts and roach speed and a nydus. Just go for 1 nydus a fair bit out of their base and place the swarm hosts there. The queens function as AA and put down a few tumors since creep effectively increases the range of your swarm hosts. Ideally you have a couple queens, 5-6 swarm hosts and the rest roach and you just start to whittle their base from there. The nydus doesn't need to be too close at all because swarm hosts with the upgrade and creep spread have huge range.
swarm host and roach is just quite a strong combination, the biggest weaknesses being air and large amounts of colossi. By hitting early and using queens for AA it's hard to stop, queens compliment swarm hosts so well by being able to spread creep and transfuse the hosts if they bumrush you, the problem of course is getting your queens over there and having some starting creep. For small maps just walking your queens over and using an overlord works quite well, for the bigger maps the nydus is great, there is just hardly any risk of the nydus getting killed because it doesn't even have to be close to them . The worst threat for nydus play now are oracles really
What time do you attack? Could I see replays?
I do something like this, but on 2 bases. It attacks around 9:30 or so, with no roaches but lings and spines (5 SH, 4 queens, 3 spines and a bunch of lings). I wonder if yours is better.
|
On November 05 2012 15:25 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 13:25 DuncanIdaho wrote:On November 05 2012 13:10 Qwyn wrote:On November 05 2012 12:56 DuncanIdaho wrote:On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
Sadly I have to disagree with the DUNE references, because the worms in that novel belong to "the good guys", whereas Nydus worms are part of "the bad guys" team. This isnt related to the novel in any way and people should stop thinking that adding more references to other cool stuff will improve something. Its a Seeker missile (AoE) and not a Hunter Seeker (single target) ...
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me. Let's just say the campaign for this expansion should be epic, and it will rock all your pre-conceived notions. Furthermore, are you even sure the Fremen of Dune (sandriders) are indeed the good guys? They're a bunch of religious primitives with barbaric practices, in desperate need of culture, education, real justice systems (other than, you raped my wife, no I didn't, well lets go out into the desert and see which one of us is eaten first by Shai'Hulud, and that man will obviously be the liar), and becoming more civilized... Second, sure, I get it, SC2 is not Dune, I'm not an idiot. (I'll have you know I've read Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse:Dune, Hunters of Dune, Sandworms of Dune, The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, The Battle of Corrin, House Atreides, House Harkonnen, House Corrino, and Paul of Dune, to name a few. I know, I know, I've left out the latest one, Sisterhood of Dune, which I've yet to read, or the biography/companions Road to Dune and Dreamer of Dune.) But yes, I'm quite familiar with Dune, you may also know I've named myself after one of the characters, and without spoiling too much, if you haven't read it, which few are as versed in Dune as am I, but lets just say Duncan Idaho is quite the awesome character as the series goes onward... My apologies if in naming my build in honor of one of the greatest scifi's out there diminishes its glory, for that was by no means my intention. As for the widow mine, I made no comment that it's a "hunter seeker", nor do I have any illusions that it's the same thing. On November 04 2012 20:18 Rabiator wrote:
For some inspirational Nydus useage you could watch TLO and learn from him. Things like "getting close to the enemys base with early Infestors and then guarding the Nydus entrance in the main base with lots of Infested Terrans" are awesome. I do like this, its always great to have other units to support a nydus in production, and if "fatest possible" is not the goal, then sure, ITs are a great addition. On November 04 2012 18:31 MilesTeg wrote:
I approve of the name. Haha, as you should, Miles Teg :p hehe
Well... First what are the good guys or bad guys? It's all just a matter of perspective. Way I see it, the Zerg are misunderstood, and are actually a noble race, and the terrans are evil as they destroy their own and seek to dominate even each other, and the Protoss are so pompous that they think xenocide of any planets with the slightest "infestation" problem must be cleansed at once, despite if any non-Zerg sentients are present. So, good guys? Bad guys? It's a matter of perspective, and I bet you haven't seen any of the leaked HotS cinematics, or else you may agree with me.
That's definitely not how Zerg are made out to be...Zerg are the last thing FROM noble...They are mindless predatory killing machines who want to wipe out every last species in the galaxy. If you're talking about that WoL "slip up" the dev. covered that and said that all the Overmind wanted was for Zerg to be able to function autonomously, not be "free and joyous..." The overmind was hardcoded with ONE objective...to assimilate all life in the universe. It was genetically coded to have ONE purpose in life...I don't see how you can claim that to be a noble purpose... I don't understand how you could call a hive mind race that wishes to wipe out ALL life on the galaxy NOBLE. As for the Terran...they're humans dude. Are you making some nihilistic comment on humanity? And the protoss (if you know the lore from the first game), at least Tassadar deliberately STOP incinerating planets so that Terrans like Raynor can escape. Just gotta get this straight. So, assimilation can't be noble? I don't know dude, but keep in mind they're a different species, who don't necessarily understand other sentient creatures, though maybe they do. Read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, there's some great moral stories there about xenocide and misunderstandings, and the whole notion of good or evil. Personally, I refuse to think in terms of good/bad guys. I'll admit that the Terrans are roughly the "protagonists" as are the Fremen of Dune, but to say protagonist=good guy is not necessarily the case, for what is good? Dr. Horrible of Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog, Kratos of God of War, Dexter from, erm, Dexter, just to name a few protagonists with "shades of grey" when it comes to "good". And as for nihilist comments about humanity, sure why not, maybe we aren't noble simply because it's us. Typically, no one thinks of him/her/itself as "the bad guy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism is a great link to read, perhaps your idea of nihilist=bad word is much like communist=bad word, Jesus= good word, etc. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, or Bill O'Reilly, please. And for the record, it's widely agreed in certain circles that Neo, of The Matrix, is a postmodernist Nihilist. Guess he's a bad guy, eh? :p All I was suggesting is the argument that sandworms and sandtrout are the "good guys" and therefore cannot ever be used to compare analogously to the nydus and swarm host which are "bad guys" is quite simplistic. Technically, they're both arguably mindless beasts that just go about surviving by any means necessary, perhaps more similar than one might think. Oh, but the sandworms are controlled by the Fremen humans, to a great extent, sort of. Well what of the Psi Disruptor? Or Kerrigan? Oh no, that's not a Terran controlling the Zerg, no not at all... heh But regardless, I digress. Let's try to stay on topic here, hehe + Show Spoiler +It's just a matter of differing opinions. To suggest that there are no moral absolutes and only shades of gray is to effectively deny the concept of human morality and good v. evil as a valid interpretation of existance. To sass back, it's a view that has been adopted by a lot of liberal minded circles throughout the 20th century. It's common today to see this view held by the past few generations, especially with a high correlation among the scientific, atheists and the "logical."
I'm not denying that words and ideas bear connotations given by race, region, or religious practice and that these may not necessarily be true or adhered to only by those who are born with them or have been "converted."
I am of a different opinion regarding the Zerg than you, it seems. You see, I accept the human definition of morality to include not only action but intent, and understand that I see the world from a very human viewpoint and that what I come to understand as good and evil is absolute in the terms of my existance.
So looking at it from that lense, the idea that the Zerg were created by a race with the express orders of destroying every other species in the galaxy for genetic perfection is evil...why? Because the Zerg threaten the existance of not only humanity, but every other race in the galaxy and they do so at the personal desires of one being, who controls the Zerg through the Overmind...and later Kerrigan, who is evidenced to be evil (in the same way as the Overmind). Now if the Overmind were not expressed in the game as an obviously intelligent, sentient being, who bears malicious intent towards all life, and were merely a prisoner carrying out forced orders, then it would be different. It comes down to intent, not just action, especially when viewed through this "human" lense of mine.
When I said nihilist I was observing your moral viewpoint. To claim that the human moral viewpoint is abstractly contrived, that it does not exist, that what we claim to be good or evil is merely a wide variety of differing intents perpetuated by varying species, kinds, factions, groups, peoples...That there is no right or wrong, even in retrospect, is something I can't agree with. Anyhow, as for the strategy itself, it looks really sick, even though I can't try it because I don't have the beta. But I have been experimenting with a lot of nydus play, especially with the hydralisk (using the nydus as a way to remove travel time and deny the third - hooray for TLO and his wonderful innovation). It's something that is definitely very niche, until the nydus is changed to be more multipurpose. As it stands now there's no real reason to use the nydus because most units can get place to place on current map sizes simply by moving there...
Lol what a can of worms you opened
Now I wouldnt pretend to be a lore buff, but didnt ghost tassadar tell us that the reason the overmind created kerrigan was to free the zerg race from the zerg's programmed directive to mindlessley assimilate all life? And wasnt this against the backdrop of the Overmind working against the dark forces which conspired to eliminate the existence of the universe itself, with the Zerg race being the only thing standing between the universe and oblivion? Frankly if we can somehow accept that killing civilian children using drones to kill militants or by targetting rocket launching sites is acceptable collateral, is it really fair to fault the Overmind for considering us collateral to defend the universe itself? If you disagree, does that mean you consider the existence of your race more important than the existence of the universe (collateral only acceptable when your tribe not on the receiving end)? Sounds pretty selfish to me...
Frankly i think good/evil are terms used by hypocrites who want to make themselves feel better about themselves. Unless you were brought up in the exact same circumstance as another person, you cant know you wouldnt act the same way in their position. Its funny that relative morality is a term tagged to atheists, since Jesus commands us not to judge others simce God is the only one fit to do so. Why are you all so insistent on thinking of yourselves as moral arbiters? If morals were absolute, then humans should be capable of casting judgement. But since we are commanded not to, clearly God considers things we cant. Worry about your own salvation please. (by the way this doesnt mean that dangerous people shouldnt be detained. Buy the goal should be rehabilitation and public protection, not vengence and judgement. You can lock somebody up with pity and without hate. (PS im an atheist who likes christian principles and wished people who call themselves Christian actually followed them...)
But yeah, nice build
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
