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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
But making the handling a bit better seems like a good idea, at least the transformation part. Buffing the ground strength is unnecessary they are pretty strong already for an air superiority fighter. Waht I think might be fun is to give the seeker missile to the viking as an armory upgrade or maybe fusion core upgrade. That would make them even more useful in late game. Maybe each viking just gets one missile, similar to how the vultures just had 3 spider mines. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:09 TranceKuja wrote: Because the Wraith was used so much in BW. I think the BW unit you're missing is the Goliath. If the colossus was in BW, the wraith would have been used a lot more. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:13 Freeborn wrote: I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already. ^ This here. As stated many times in many 'buff viking assault mode' threads, the viking is the cheapest flying unit with the ability to attack in the game. It's not the fastest to build, but considering you can make them with reactors, they are an amazing unit. If they had no assault mode at all, they would be bargain. If you want to buff their ground mode, you must increase their cost. Since no-one wants effectively nerf the viking to increase it's 'raiding viability' forget it. If they were a proper raiding unit you would need to increase their cost to at least match the Banshee at 150/100 and should require a tech lab, since they would be as useful as a banshee with less vulnerabilities. | ||
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DaveVAH
Canada162 Posts
On November 02 2012 00:13 Freeborn wrote: I think vikings are pretty usefull for their cost already. No they are not actually. viking mech is stomped by protoss air right now because vikings fall far short vs protoss air combinations. Same situation why infester broodlord is so good vs terran is because vikings suck vs corrupters with 1 or 2 fungals. Vikings beign good vs air is a myth that has build up because protoss never used to go air in wol. if they did its flagrant weaknesses would show. only really good terran AA is upgraded marines and there is no myth in that. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On November 02 2012 12:34 Kharnage wrote: ^ This here. As stated many times in many 'buff viking assault mode' threads, the viking is the cheapest flying unit with the ability to attack in the game. It's not the fastest to build, but considering you can make them with reactors, they are an amazing unit. If they had no assault mode at all, they would be bargain. If you want to buff their ground mode, you must increase their cost. Since no-one wants effectively nerf the viking to increase it's 'raiding viability' forget it. If they were a proper raiding unit you would need to increase their cost to at least match the Banshee at 150/100 and should require a tech lab, since they would be as useful as a banshee with less vulnerabilities. Vikings are not even great at Air-to-Air. They are MEDIOCRE at best against Carriers, tempests, mutalisks, corrupters, phoenixes. Vikings are also the worst raiding air unit in the game. They have the lowest HP/cost of any ground unit. They have a movement speed of 2.25 on the ground. They FLY slower than a stalker can WALK. They share zero upgrades with Mech. Vikings have THE #1 worst scaling upgrades in the game. 14+1 to ground damage and (10+1) x 2 or (14+1) x 2 to air damage. There isn't a single worse scaling unit in the game at +7% per upgrade. Marines are +16.667% per upgrade. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
If changes are implemented that make the viking a really cost efficient unit even if there are not air units out (colossus also counts in here in this case), the viking would be way too good. We have seen already how the ghost snipe had to be changed because they just countered everything in tvz lategame no matter what the opponent chose to do and we can see a similar bad thing currently with zerg going for mass (not quite to the same extent because it's not a single unit but actually a unit composition) broodlord+corruptor+infestor in zvp since ultras are pretty bad in their current state in zvp. There has been a pretty similar thread a while ago and the underlying idea is always the same: "Make the viking on the ground way stronger so terrans can blindly just mass up vikings in the lategame and never worry about getting the right amount of vikings any more." There are indeed still quite a few units to work on/tweak in the game but the viking is actually one of the well balanced ones and on top of that useful in all three matchups. This can't be said about a lot of other units/abilities. If you indeed all you are asking for is making the viking more interesting, well then a lot of things that are well balanced now won't work anymore. Because reducing the hp, increasing the cost or decreasing the dps they do to make up for the new cool abilities they could possibly get would make them to weak for their intended purpose (fighting air units + colossi) or require players to actually make good use of these cool and crazy ideas abilities (cliff jumping ... etc) to make them worthwhile and cost efficient, not something people below masters would be accomplish (even questioning most low-midmasters in this regard). | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
IMHO, yes, because of the threat of Tempests, burrowing charge Ultralisks, swarm hosts, widow mines and so on. Without a Goliath type unit in the late game, just being on par with P or Z in the late game will be very tough. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On November 02 2012 14:55 link0 wrote:Vikings are not even great at Air-to-Air. They are MEDIOCRE at best against Carriers, tempests, mutalisks, corrupters, phoenixes. They fight equally in cost vs some other air units (like vs phoenix, but due to their range phoenix lose vs them cause they have to fly over the marines) and outright win vs most. There is not a single air unit the vikings loses to and it has a ground mode as a bonus (always asuming equal upgrades on both sides here). The problem with a ton of vikings in the lategame doesn't come from the stats, it comes from the fact that most players ball them up (it's actually hard to spread them out constantly because they tend to clump up again once you focus fire some air units and you need to control your other units as well at the same time) and fungal growth/storm can deal great dmg vs them if they are balled up nicely. This is why it's hard to engage broodlord/infestor/corruptor armies or protoss air with storm support (hardly seen in wol due to carriers being so bad, but maybe changing in hots with new air possibilities). The viking itself has really good stats for their intended purpose. On November 02 2012 14:55 link0 wrote: Vikings have THE #1 worst scaling upgrades in the game. 14+1 to ground damage and (10+1) x 2 or (14+1) x 2 to air damage. There isn't a single worse scaling unit in the game at +7% per upgrade. Marines are +16.667% per upgrade. There is. It's called the stalker. On top of only having 10(+1) and 14(+1) compared to the viking's 12(+1) (ground) and 10(+1)/14(+1) (air) they also don't require to get tripple upgrades like stalkers who need to get shield upgrades. Of course stalkers share ground upgrades and in any normal game stalkers will be well ugpraded compared to vikings ... but isn't this true for air units of all races? Fact is they do their job way better than phoenix/voids or curruptors as anti air, if zerg hadn't been starting to do well all of a sudden like half a year ago corruptors would have been the right units to buff, they are the worst from all those units because compared to all others they are really only anti air and can't do anything else once they are done doing it (at least until the very lategame when they can turn into broodlords). David Kim stated they were thinking abuot buffing the corruptor but decided against it because zergs have been doing well enough even though corruptors are not that great. The infestor mainly took over the anti air role in the midgame and zergs have learned how to make the right transition into broodlords. Only then they usually even get corruptors (vs normal unit compositions). | ||
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Riquiz
Netherlands402 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10343 Posts
this would allow air heavy terran style to harass better with vikings, though it would mean you have worse AA... a new air unit could fit but that might just be better left off for LotV | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
Furthermore, I don't understand why people are making arguments of the form that "buffing landed vikings will make vikings too strong." This is fallacious. Their effectiveness while flying is completely unaffected. And I think it's pretty silly to say that such a small change will make Vikings a unit you can blindly make en masse and win fights with. I am not proposing making Assault Mode vikings have massive stat changes, like more HP or damage. Moving shot and slightly increased movement speed, without affecting the unit's stats, are actually quite soft, subtle changes with regards to its raw combat effectiveness. I guess it can kite melee units, which is a big difference. But at range 5, with low damage and HP for cost, you are going to have a very hard time arguing that the landed viking is "overpowered." And even if it were to become overpowered, I would simply respond that its numbers can easily be adjusted, even significantly reduced, to accommodate the change. Having smooth, fast vikings which can zip around the battlefield under continuous control, and which can smoothly transition between modes, is objectively superior to the existing implementation from a player-use gameplay perspective. Balance considerations notwithstanding. I would like to add that Blizzard should deliberately be trying to make units and mechanics which are very weak if you're bad, or if you let the AI do the work for you, but which appear completely broken in the hands of an immensely skilled player. Such as A-moving landed vikings with moving shot, versus the various other possible micro opportunities with the assault mode viking other than a single massive battle. Many units and mechanics for all three races should acquire this kind of effectiveness- it would improve the game. The way to counter another player being extremely skilled with their mechanics is to be equally skilled with your own race's. | ||
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Moipster
United Kingdom9 Posts
Workers will get shot down more often when fleeing, and they can shoot over marines and over nits in ground combat, so they don't get in the way all the time. | ||
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