EPTI watched that entire mass ghost vid in the OP just to hear the CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK of the canister rifles. So soothing.
No fix to clumpy unit movement - Page 9
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theWalrusSC2
United States78 Posts
I watched that entire mass ghost vid in the OP just to hear the CLACK CLACK CLACK CLACK of the canister rifles. So soothing. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
On October 25 2012 21:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: Props to Archer for linking to this thread http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544?page=6#104 If you guys have really good arguments, you should post them in that BNet thread. People in that thread seem to mostly get it but aren't using the term "magic box." That's the key to this whole argument. The magic box will allow us to do what we want while adding micro and taking nothing away. Someone needs to remind blizzard what a true magic box looks like | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On October 25 2012 23:45 Knee_of_Justice wrote: People in that thread seem to mostly get it but aren't using the term "magic box." That's the key to this whole argument. The magic box will allow us to do what we want while adding micro and taking nothing away. Someone needs to remind blizzard what a true magic box looks like We need Nony to make another micro video ^_^ | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
Made me sad. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
On October 25 2012 21:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: Props to Archer for linking to this thread http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544?page=6#104 If you guys have really good arguments, you should post them in that BNet thread. Aw dang I didn't realize it was in the HotS beta forum. I was going to post about viewability, opportunity (harass army on the move), and playability (functional tools). | ||
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kratos-23
303 Posts
On October 25 2012 17:31 [F_]aths wrote: Qxc and Day[9] were probably under the impression that it would be possible to have it not only appear more BW-like, but to have it play out more like BW. SC2 is not BW, and Dustin Browder knows that. One would need to not only change movement and spreading, you have to make a whole new game, only to remake an old game. An old game which found almost no new players in the western world. Unit clumping can be good to focus damage, but bad to avoid splash damage. Unit clumping makes it harder to follow a battle, but you can only do so much for entertainment value. I really doubt that Day[9] or Qcx know *better* how to make a game than DB with his team. (Dustin just leads the team, he does not make all decisions by himself.) DB already led a team which made WoL, the most successful RTS in years. Day and Qcx are only players. Very smart players, but they have not shown yet that they can develop a game like Starcraft. They probably would use what they already know – Broodwar. it's only the most successful because of it's predecessor and the big name "blizzard", not because it is the best rts game. and i'am sure qxc and day9 would make a better game than bowder and kim. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On October 25 2012 05:48 [F_]aths wrote: DB is an RTS expert compared to almost any unit movement complainer. We can trust his conclusion more than the wish of someone who does not understand the game to a level as an expert. I have to disagree here, because none of the Blizzard devs seem to understand the problems they have caused by creating a game which gives the players a totally ridiculously high "dps per area" by making the units move and fight in such perfectly tight formations. This is the reason why defensive play is impossible in the game and part of the reason why there is no defenders advantage. Compare the "dps per area" in BW and SC2 and you see that the second one is MUCH higher. And yet they think the problem of the game can be solved by twiddling around with the numbers of the units? Such naivete and narrowsightedness is astonishing. Oh and "DB the RTS expert" did ruin which other RTS series again? Yeah, C&C was popular ... in the good old days, but the last ones were terrible. Of which RTS does THAT remind me again? Hint: the name begins with an "S" and it ends with "craft". The problem is that Dustin Browder and David Kim and all the other developers are too involved in the process and are basically all hamsters running in their treadmill. Sometimes it is necessary to take a break and look at something this big from an impartial and distant perspective to see the flaws. The "dps per area" is just such an example, but there are others like the "production speed boosts" for the three races, which kick in at different times. Who thinks that this will NOT be a bad thing for casual players who might be overwhelmed by the sheer multitasking of the game? This is the reason why I am not playing anymore for example. As a viewer of competitive gameplay I get terribly bored by deathball "max army vs max army" engagements, because we have seen them for 2-3 years now without any other viable strategy being possible. This is again a consequence of the "dps per area" problem in combination with the number of units per control group and the tight unit movement. Defensive structures only matter in the very beginning of the game OR when you can afford to build 20 Spine Crawlers later on; at any other time they simply get overwhelmed in 2 seconds by tightly packed formations of attackers. These problems exist, but everything the Blizzard devs say shows that they are ignorant of these NOT UNIT RELATED THINGS. In addition there are the countless problems with BNet 0.2 which have been promised and havent been included. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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kratos-23
303 Posts
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bole
Serbia164 Posts
split isnt Micro i think it is but not like normal mico from WC3 or SC BW.... moving one unite away at the time that is Micro we dont see in this game.. I watch Morrow stream hi is terran and I see only trades of army... who have bather trade he wins .. almost no micro involved battles ... Sige Tanks Hellbats ghost army vs Toss army immortals zealots HTs Arcons all A MOVE UNITES... this become bad game from E sport spectator pont to player less micro intensive skill to from every angle this is BAD GAME.... Unites are also not only problem A move unites.... problem is in game speed ... How ? Simply no Human cant micro vs that high DPS per sec .... Massive dps in short time kill micro easy.. A move unites kill micro also... And ofc Pathing is one problem that need to be solved to.... | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
The thread on b.net is a garbage pile that missed the true point from the beginning. Would it even be worth it to post in there? I feel like it'd just come off as further whining. I don't blame Browder and Kim at all for their response to community outcry, because usually it is senseless yammering. For example, the biggest "fix SC2" issue since the beginning was about individual unit and ability design, when I think it's clear from this thread and remote analysis that the underlying fundamentals are the problem, but no one ever articulates that clearly and it's much harder to understand. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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barwick11
44 Posts
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
And fuck it, it's the beta. Why not try out more shit to make the game the best that it can be? | ||
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On October 26 2012 12:07 shizaep wrote: I think the unlimited selection but much more spread out pathing (vulture video was rlly good IMO but the other ones are also acceptable) would benefit the game a lot. You could still "a-move" but focusing on control would definitely a lot more rewarding. You would have to make sure your units don't just stream to their death, flanks a lot more deadly, ect. And fuck it, it's the beta. Why not try out more shit to make the game the best that it can be? ... because the shit they add is just another unit or two and those really wont fix any of the problems they *should be* working on. The excuses they give about testing dynamic unit movement or any changes to that are just weak and this leaves me to believe that they genuinely do not see the problem (either from lack of ability or from lack of will to see them). That is depressing, because the problems and the solutions are so blatantly obvious ... So any "oh lets just play the beta" comment is just the same as giving up, because most people will then just stop thinking and become happy little hamsters in their treadmills ... "gotta ... play ... more ... games". | ||
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
I think it is VASTLY underestimated how much the "great" pathing of SC2 is a detriment to the game. The speed that a 200/200 army can go up a ramp, through a choke, make controlling space almost worth nothing. The speed at which buildings can be sniped for no cost- marauders still, snipe, get out... makes the game what we see today. On the other hand, the clunky units in BW made static defense worth so much more, space worth so much more, chokes worth more, high ground, micro... the list goes on and on. The "ease of control" is also proportional to the "ease" of losing your army to 1 click. Being 1 second late to A-Move respond to your opponents A move into your army, can cost you a game. Because the Auto-Play pathing from their side has annihilated your army. The base race, building sniping, deathball, base trade game we know today is directly a result of this sort of pathing, which pushes the units around and turns the game into each team trying to create 1 giant eraser. | ||
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