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SC2 Experimental design changes, playable in WoL

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Velen
Profile Joined October 2012
Czech Republic5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 12:29:52
October 13 2012 12:28 GMT
#1
TL;DR - experimental design changes that you can try for yourself in EU arcade map: 'SC2 EXPERIMENT: Cloud Kingdom LE' (can be played even against AI but it cannot use new units) or you can download mod and map directly (see further)

you can have a look at the changes in this picture: http://imgur.com/8nvFi

- I tried to make ALL units viable (Viper, Warhound, Reaper, Ghost, Raven, Void Ray, Oracle, Tempest...). I use all HOTS units (with changes) as I think Blizz done good job and they can all fit into the game
- some of the changes were proposed (long time ago) by community (Fungal Growth nerf, MULE nerf, Combat Awareness working as a radar, Raven more useful, Warp Gate changed, FF duration nerfed, Vortex changes...)
- these changes should bring more variety to strategies throughout the game
- also I tried to maintain simplicity and consistency of rules

-------
Greetings!

After Balance Update #6 I decided to update my HOTS design experiment and present it on TL forums to possibly discuss some of my suggestions and mainly try out some of the community's suggestions in WoL mod (why not to have fun for science?) so if you know about interesting suggestions already posted and discussed I'd be glad to see them and maybe implement them to this experiment (some of the community suggestions are already implemented).
I tried to find weaknesses in the current design but also come up with some interesting ideas (so I don't say all of suggestions are necessary e.g. Baneling upgrade) and alternatives to current design (e.g. Balance Update #6 brought interesting changes to the Tempest but I tried something different here). But anything can be changed during discussion.

The best thing about this theorycrafting post is the fact you can try these changes in EU arcade map: 'SC2 EXPERIMENT: Cloud Kingdom LE'
or download mod and map here: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?n2wwjo6xhx4v52m

Please keep in mind that numbers and names aren't as important as the design in this experiment.

-------
CHANGES IN NUTSHELL

you can have a look at the changes in this picture http://imgur.com/8nvFi :

[image loading]

-------
FULL CHANGES WITH REASONING:

CHANGES FROM WOL

ZERG

+ Show Spoiler +
units added:
Swarm Host
- built from Larva, Hydralisk Den required. 200 minerals and 100 gas, 40 seconds, 3 supply
- 120 HP. Attributes: armored, biological, ground unit. Movement speed 2.25

Spawn Locusts (while burrowed)
- each 25 seconds spawns 2 Locusts. Locust has 65 HP, Attributes: light, biological, ground unit. Movement speed 1.88. 20 seconds timed life. (KNOWN ISSUE: Set Rally Point for Locusts doesn't use attack move command but only move commnad. Anyone knows hot to change it?)
- Locust can attack ground units, 12 damage per attack (+1 per upgrade level), 3 attack range, 0.8 attack cooldown

Swarm Host is very good at its intented role of midgame siege unit but I think in late game it can get out of hand (ofc more beta testing needed). So in this experiment I increased duration of Locusts to 20 but removed Enduring Locusts upgrade.
Also I think it would be interesting to test if different tech path isn't more desirable than just making it part of Hive tech path.

Viper
- built from Larva, Hive required. 100 minerals and 200 gas, 40 seconds, 3 supply
- 120 HP. Attributes: light, biological, air unit. Movement speed 2.95
- has these abilities:

Abduct
- pulls targeted unit to the Viper
- 75 energy, 8 cast range

Blinding Cloud
- summons 10 seconds lasting cloud (2,5 range) in which have ground units reduced weapon attack range by 6 (min. 1). Units with weapon range 4 or less aren't affected.
- 75 energy, 9 cast range

Spawn Venoling
- spawns anti-energy specialized unit below the Viper. Venoling has 75 HP, Attributes: biological, ground unit. Movement speed 3. Can move while burrowed. 80 seconds timed life.
- Venoling can attack only units with energy and with each attack drains 75 energy from target, 7 attack range, 1.1 attack cooldown
- 50 energy, 50 seconds cooldown

Consume
- drains 100 HP of your building per 10 seconds to gain 25 energy

I think this unit is an interesting addition to the swarm. I tried to make Blinding Cloud better so I made it larger but to compensate that I changed its effect to reduce weapon attack range by 6 (units with weapon range 4 or less aren't affected). This change also doesn't make sieged Siege Tanks absolutely useless (when there is Blinding Cloud above them they have still range of 7) and in turtling ZvZ scenarios enables at least roaches to attack normally.
Everyone knows Zerg is lacking tool against units with energy. My buff to Neural Parasite could help with this and Abduct can be used but it is very dangerous in some cases. I come up with new ability for Viper that could be interesting. Instead of direct draining of energy (like HT and Ghost) you can spawn quite fast unit that can also move while burrowed (sneaky). Energy draining isn't based on ability so you don't have to fear to be Feedbacked or EMPed. If this spawned unit dies before it can do anything it doesn't hurt much because you can "chew" a bit of your structure and try it again (but keep in mind 50 seconds cooldown).
Change of Viper's attributes to 'light, biological' should help it to survive longer.


changes:
Hatchery, Lair, Hive
- maximum larva count decreased to 9
Lair
- automatic larva spawn max count increased to 4 (from 3)
Hive
- automatic larva spawn max count increased to 5 (from 3)

First change prevents excessive larva stacking. On the other hand Zerg gets additional larva to help with possible missed injects. This could help in lower leagues to make Zerg more accessible.

Overseer
new ability added: Spawn Secretory Bladder
- Quicky generates creep around itself (6 range). Times out after 30 seconds.
- Secretory Bladder is armored structure that generates creep, 60 HP.
- 50 energy, 4 casting range

Difference with Generate Creep is that this is fast and short lasting solution for smaller creep ways. Could this help Hydras? (keep in mind that only one spawned bladder won't help you that much)

Queen
- anti ground weapon range decreased to 4

There aren't Hellions in this experiment so there's no need for longe ranged Queen

Baneling
Decomposing Chemicals upgrade added
- grants + 11 attack damage bonus vs light
- upgraded in Baneling Nest, Infestation Pit required, 100 minerals and 100 gas, 110 seconds

Remember Baneling burrow move upgrade? Blizz wanted to see more use of Baneling in late game. I'm not sure if this upgrade could do it but it certainly improves its deadliness and we could possibly see more Banelings in PvZ. Because is Infestation Pit required for this upgrade Zerg can now get even midgame boost for Banelings while upgrading Melee Attacks in Evo Chamber.

Hydralisk
- attack range increased to 6, Grooved Spines upgrade removed
- movement speed off creep increased to 2.5
- regenerates faster when out of combat (1 HP/sec. from 0.27)

Muscular Augments upgrade added
- increases movement speed off creep to 2.95
- upgraded in Hydralisk Den, Hive required, 100 minerals and 100 gas, 90 seconds

I think that introduction of new Protoss unit (Disruptor) allows me to make Hydralisk stronger right from the start.

Infestor
Fungal Growth changed
- now doesn't root in place but slows movement speed by 60%, speed buffs are disabled (applies to Stim and Particle Boosters (Protoss Disruptor), Blink is still disabled)
- massive units are immune to slowing effects

Neural Parasite changed
- energy requirement lowered to 75
- now cannot target massive units
- range increased to 9
- research cost reduced to 100 minerals and 100 gas
- research time reduced to 80 seconds

Countless threads have been started about Fungal Growth root. I agree its too harsh. With my change also Fungal Growth doesn't hinder harassment that much as it could before with just one click. (two actually
Excluding massive units from Infestor's influence makes clearer distinction between Infestor and Viper and also allows me to make Neural Parasite more accessible.

Ultralisk
new ability added: Charge Towards Point
- Roars and runs 60% faster towards targeted point while pushing ground units out of its way and damaging enemy units. Cannot issue any other order while charging.
- 30 seconds cooldown
- requires to be researched at Ultralisks Cavern, 150 minerals and 150 gas, 90 seconds research time

My take on charging Ultralisk. I think this is more interesting and useful than Ultralisk-shark.


TERRAN

+ Show Spoiler +
unit removed:

- Hellion

units added:

Incendiary
- comes from Hellion and Battle Hellion
- built at Factory (can be reactored), 100 minerals, 30 seconds, 2 supply
- 135 HP. Attributes: light, mechanical, ground unit. Movement speed 3.25 (accelerates 1 second to full speed)
- can attack ground units. 10 (14 vs. light) damage per attack (+1/2 per upgrade level), cone area of damage similar to Battle Hellion (but cannot research 'Blue Flame'), 2 attack range, 2 attack cooldown

In this experiment I come up with faster version of Battle Hellion (without legs! that sticks to older Blizz statement that they don't want to give Terran overly much options. Also I tried to make Reaper viable as fast moving light units killer (Hellion is actually used almost exclusively against zerglings and workers) and making clear distinction between these units.

Warhound
- Heavy-fire support unit.
- built in Factory with Tech Lab, Armory required. 200 minerals and 150 gas, 50 seconds, 4 supply
- 250 HP. Attributes: armored, massive, mechanical, ground unit. Movement speed 2.69
- can attack ground units. 22 damage per attack (+1 per upgrade level), 6 attack range, 1.1 attack cooldown
- has these abilities:

Flak Bomb
- Shoots a missile at targeted light air unit that deals 25 damage to light air units in medium area (1.75 range).
- 7 casting range, 5 seconds cooldown, shares cooldown with Haywire Missiles and Refractive Barrier

Haywire Missiles
- Shoots three missiles each dealing 15 damage at targeted mechanical ground unit.
- 8 casting range, 10 seconds cooldown, shares cooldown with Flak Bomb and Refractive Barrier

Refractive Barrier
- Creates energetic barrier at targeted mechanical non-massive unit that last 8 seconds and reduces incoming attack damage from ranged units by 50%. If attacker is non-massive air unit it does 6 damage back to it.
- 8 casting range, 15 seconds cooldown, shares cooldown with Haywire Missiles and Flak Bomb

Launch Panther Mine
- spawns Panther Mine at targeted point, 8 cast range. Panther Mine has 30 HP, Attributes: light, mechanical, ground unit. Movement speed 2.81.
- Panther Mine can attack air and ground units only while burrowed, 100 damage to targeted unit and 30 damage to units in small area (1.5 range) around it. 3.5 attack range, it is destroyed when attack.
- each Warhound is made with 4 Panther Mines which cannot be replenished

has Fragmenting Explosives upgrade
- gives +7 damage to Flak Bomb ability.
- upgraded in Factory's Tech Lab, Armory requirement, 150 minerals and 150 gas, 90 seconds

I eagerly tried to find role for Warhound and I think that it could be support for mech with quite good DPS. I looked which problems could this unit (and its abilities on cooldown, not energy) solve: mech's clumsy AA, Immortal hardcounter (but still leaving space for Ghosts EMP), TvT stale battles.
I removed Thor's anti light splash AA and gived it to the Warhound as an ability as I think AA anti light attack more fits to faster unit (and splash damage to air units based on ability). I tweaked Haywire Missiles a bit (anti Hardened shields, Siege tanks, Incendiaries/Battle Hellions and Disruptors) and added defensive spell with AA twist (can for example protect Incendiary/Battle Hellion which can then get into position to attack or Raven casting HSM or protection gainst Immortal's brutal attack). These abilities share cooldown so you have to choose wisely which one of them will you use.
Last ability is Launch Panther Mine (unit similar to old Widow Mine). When the mine isn't built at Factory it can bring some very positive things: you don't have to worry about supply and cost effectivness plus Warhound can launch it across distance for example into the enemy tank line or up the cliff (which could lead to suprising attacks).


changes:
MULE
- count limit: 4 MULEs at one time

I think the problem with MULEs is that you can have unlimited number of them which drastically improves Terran mineral collection rate over other races.

Marauder
- Concussive Shells removed

With Stim you can already easily chatch most of fleeing enemies. I think this upgrade makes MMM quite strong. For catching the fastest units there is new ability for Ghost.

Reaper
- Build time reduced to 30
- life increased to 65, armor increased to 1
- building attack removed
- attack range increased to 6
- unupgraded speed increased to 3.25
- unupgraded cannot jump up/down cliffs

Combat Awareness added (passive)
- Reaper uses device that is able to detect position of visible units within 12 range around him (like radar)

- Nitro Packs upgrade allows Reapers to jump up/down cliffs (upgraded movement speed remains 3.84)

I chose different approach than Blizz to make Reaper useful. I looked what keeps Reaper stats from being better and I identified early game cliff jumping. Reaper could be used even before upgrade to deal terrible terrible damage to light units.

Ghost
- mineral cost reduced to 125
- attack damage increased to 15, range increased to 7
- now is considered also as Light
- attack bonus damage now applies to Psionic (instead of light), deals 25 damage vs Psionic, +4 per upgrade level
- Snipe removed

new ability added: Impeding Field
- 50 energy, 8 casting range
- creates 10 second lasting field (2 range)
- slows ground light units with less than 70 maximum HP inside field by 50%
- all ground units in the field cannot cloak or use abilities (so no Blink or new use of Stim)
- all (i.e. ground and air) cloaked units in targeted area in the moment of impact cannot cloak for 10 seconds

EMP changed
- now required target is a unit (not a point as before)
- does 100 damage to shields (for 10 seconds will not regenerate) and drains all energy of targeted unit
- units in 1.8 area around targeted unit take 45 damage to shields and 100 damage to energy
- no longer reveals cloaked units

Ghost were hit hard with the nerfing hammer but the changes were necessary. I changed his abilities so I could lower his mineral cost. Even with lowered cost (and change to be Light) I increased attack damage because the bonus damage now applies to very specific group - psionic units. With this change I could get rid of Snipe which would be inadequate to his new cost (even with changes to the ability).
With nerf to Marauder now Terran is in need of slowing mechanism - thats what is Impeding Field for (+ prevents from casting spells so no Blink or new use of Stim!). Also allows me to make EMP unit targeted (as Impeding Field decloaks units instead of EMP). Target change for EMP again allows me to make Ghost cheaper. You can choose which target you want to drain 100 shields (eg Immortal) or all energy (the unit with most energy in the group).
The lowered cost could potentially also lead to few more nukes.

Thor
- 250mm Strike Cannons removed
- AA is no longer splash and deals 15 (30 vs. armored) damage (+2/4 per upgrade level), 8 attack range, 1.5 attack cooldown

Changed because of reasons mentioned in Warhound section. AA bonus damage now applies to armored units - Thors can't be slowed by Fungal Growth like Vikings but can be affected by Blinding Cloud whereas Vikings cannot. Also this unit now can step into TvT Vikings battle. And not to forget the loss of energy to be almost immune to High Templar.

Banshee
Ripper Warheads upgrade added to Starport's tech lab
- 100 minerals, 100 gas, 80 research time
- after upgrade each attack deals +3 damage to Massive units and gains +1 attack weapon range

Useful because of change to Thor's AA (also Warhound is massive), also can be used as fast response (in comparison to Battlecruisers) against scouted Ultras (especially without AA or Overseer support) or mass Archons.

Raven
Build Auto-Turret changed
- Auto-Turret is no longer structure (easy placement, doesn't burn out) and now shares attack and armor upgrades with Starport units
- Atributtes changed to light, mechanical
- HP lowered to 125 (armor remains 1)
- weapon attack damage increased to 9, weapon cooldown increased to 0.88 (slightly higher DPS)

Build Point Defense Drone changed
- energy requirement lowered to 75
- PDD's energy drain per shot increased to 12
- energy regen increased to 2 per second
- now shares armor upgrades with Starport units

Seeker Missile changed
- energy requirement lowered to 100
- cast range increased to 7
- damage decreased to 90 in epicenter (0.6-1.4: 80%, 1.4-2.2: 30%)

- Durable materials upgrade removed
- Hi-Sec autotracking upgrade removed

We have also seen many threads about this unit. I think the problem could be that with its high gas cost you have to wait quite a long time to use its attractive abilities so I decreased PDD and HSM energy requirement and nerf them a bit. Also changed Auto-Turret to be hopefuly easier to use and upgradable alongside Starport units.

Battlecruiser
- anti ground weapon damage increased to 10

new ability added: Redline Reactor
- Increases movement speed by 30% for 20 seconds.
- 120 seconds cooldown
- requires Weapon Refit (Yamato Cannon) to be researched

Has anyone seen more Battlecruisers? Do you think that movement ability could help or does it even need help?


PROTOSS

+ Show Spoiler +
units removed:

- Void Ray
- Dark Templar

units added:
Mothership Core
- Base defense unit.
- built in Nexus. 75 minerals and 50 gas, 30 seconds, 0 supply
- 150 HP, 100 shields. Attributes: armored, psionic, mechanical, air unit. Movement speed 0.94.
- Has these abilities:

Wormhole Transit
- teleports Mothership Core to a nearby target location
- 10 cast range, use of this ability requires Gateway, 80 seconds cooldown

Energize
- recharges 50 energy to targeted unit
- 25 energy, 9 cast range

Purify
- allows Mothership Core to use its weapon and increases its speed by 50% for 20 seconds. Must cast near Nexus (in 'Warp Zone', see Warp Gate for more info).
- can attack ground units. 23 damage, 8 attack range, 0.55 attack cooldown
- 100 energy, 25 seconds cooldown (can't use it 5 seconds after the end of Purify)

Recall
- Teleports all units owned by the player in the targeted area (2.5 range) to the Mothership Core. Must cast near Nexus (in 'Warp Zone', see Warp Gate for more info).
- 100 energy

Again I choosed different approach than Blizz to try to make this unit useful. Mothership Core cannot attack freely and moves slowly which allows me to get rid of any structure requirement so it can stack energy longer and also brings more possible optins when to build it.
Energize uses same energy recharging ratio as in HOTS but now you can use it eg. just to give Sentry energy for one more Force Field or to Energize two just warped-in High Templars that can cast defensive Psi Storms.
In Balance Update #4 was Mothership Core more tied to Nexus. If you want to use Recall you have to take quite slow Mothership Core with you. But other than that it brings nothing to your units. Oh sorry it can shoot. BUT then its again good at early harassing (it can kill Queen in straight battle). And when I look at the new Purify I think its a step back where Blizz already was.
So we want to restrict use of Purify and Recall only near your base. 'Center' of your base is Nexus and I already have mechanic (Warp Zone, see Warp Gate) which easily and clearly defines where 'near Nexus' is. Killed two birds with one stone!

Disruptor
- Fast raider.
- built in Robotics Facility. 75 minerals and 50 gas, 35 seconds, 2 supply
- 60 HP, 40 shields. Attributes: light, mechanical, ground unit. Movement speed 3.25
- can attack ground units. 8 (15 vs. light) damage per attack, 6 attack range, 0.9 attack cooldown
- has two abilities:

Particle Boosters
- Increases movement speed by 50% for 15 seconds.
- 35 seconds cooldown

Positronic Stroke
- After 3 seconds of preparation deals 45 damage to targeted structure.
- 60 seconds cooldown, 4 cast range

has Omega Waves upgrade
- improves Positronic Stroke to deal +15 damage
- upgraded in Robotics Bay, 100 minerals and 100 gas, 80 seconds

Yay, new early mid-game unit for Protoss! Harasser that not just entombs minerals but wickedly slains workers! But not only that - Protoss have effective way to deal with Hydras before T3 so they could be buffed a bit (+ Generate Creep requirement change) + they could be alternative to fight Terran Bio and Incendiaries (/Battle Hellions).
Disruptors are replacing Dark Templars which can be good only because of cloaking. More interesting cloaking mechanic brings Oracle (see further). I also gave it movement buff ability to make this unit more interesting (than just giving it higher movement speed) and more of a 'hit and run' type but still it has to be used wisely as it has longer cooldown.
Dark Templars are sometimes used as tech structure destructors. Thats why I added anti structure ability. You could argue that this could also do Void Rays and it could overlap with Immortals. Void Rays are much slower (and with my changes even don't have that high DPS) so they can be safely used only at places where you don't expect relatively quick answer. Fundamental difference with Immortal is that it can eat structures constantly (even static defences, Disruptor must come close to the structure and survive 3 seconds of preparation) but Disruptor must wait before it can use this ability again.

Void Convertor
- comes from Void Ray
- built in Stargate. 200 minerals and 150 gas, 50 seconds, 3 supply
- 150 HP, 100 shields. Attributes: armored, mechanical, air unit. Movement speed 2.5
- can attack ground and air units. 5 (15 vs. armored) damage per attack (+1/2 per upgrade level), deals +3 damage to Massive units, 6 attack range, 1.25 attack cooldown
- with each attack increases level of Void Conversion on the target. With each level deals any Void Convertor more damage to the target:
level 1: +1 (+3 vs. armored) additional damage
level 2: +3 (+6 vs. armored) additional damage
level 3: +5 (+9 vs. armored) additional damage, maximum level
Void Conversion dissipates after 3 seconds without being attacked by Void Convertors.

When you are using Void Rays you have to wait 10 seconds to charge it up. Which is ok when you are attacking abandoned base but its diffucult to use otherwise because any competent opponent will focus fire VR before they can charge. Yes, you can charge them on your own units but I don't think this solution which weakens your own units is very good. Also we can face opposite problem in case that opponent somehow makes higher amounts of this unit (rather in lower leagues), charges in your base and even when you arrive with your army you can have big trouble. Thats why I decided to remove charging mechanic.
So why not just make Protoss air unit with good DPS against armored units without any special damage mechanic? In PvZ and PvT it could be possibly without problems but Protoss rely on armored Stalkers for early AA so rush attacks would be devastating. Because of this I come up with different special damage mechanic - in fact exact opposite of VR. Increase of damage buff now isn't stacked on the attacker but rather on the target. This allows some micro of both attackers and targets (one of attackers is damaged so it can fall back without loosing damage buff on the target and faster targets can get out range to nullify attackers effort). Of course numbers and amount of levels could be tweaked but I think this is better design than VR. Also maximum potential DPS is lowered so it allows me to make this new unit bit cheaper and faster.

Oracle
- Versatile spellcaster support.
- built in Stargate, 100 minerals and 150 gas, 60 seconds, 3 supply
- 80 HP, 60 shields. Attributes: light, mechanical, air unit. Movement speed 3.5
- has three abilities:

Revelation
- Applies revealing effect on units and structures in targeted area for 40 seconds. These units and their close surroundings are revealed in the fog of war, cannot cloak and their activity is revealed (so caster see what you are researching, building etc.)
- 50 energy, 10 cast range

Hex Grip
- Creates large field around targeted Mineral Field that lasts 25 seconds. Workers in the field are put into stasis so they are immune to all damage, but they are unable to move or attack. Workers can be pushed out of the field by other friendly units.
- channeled ability, 50 energy, 10 cast range

Cloaking Field
- Cloaks nearby friendly units for 50 seconds. Other Oracles cannot be cloaked.
- 100 energy
- requires to be researched at Cybernetics Core (with Stargate req.) or at Fleet Beacon, costs 100 minerals and 100 gas, 110 research time

I like the idea of Oracle which in bare minimum can allow to choose Stargate tech without being affraid of cloaked attackers (in case Mothership Core has no detector ability). But it can do more. I like Revelation and I think it can be used in various situations. Also I reincarnated revealation of current activity (as Preodain had).
And there we have Entomb. I find current incarnation to be extra boring. Just fly in cast it and then disappear plus to get rid of Mineral Shields you just send workers to kill it. I found interesting idea on the US forums (us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6522763620) to "trap workers instead of minerals". But casting everywhere could cause problems in maps where vespene gaysers are right next to each other (like spawning locations in Cloud Kingdom) as you could do too much damage to vespene collection rate. I think solution could be in creating field around targeted Mineral Field. With this change you can decide if you want to maximally hinder mineral collection rate or if you target one of the Mineral Fields closer to Vespene gayser to hinder even some of the vespene collection rate (but less mineral collection rate). The last change to make this spell chanelled isn't necessary but it can bring two things: you can use it defensively to protect your own probes and cancel this spell right after the threat is gone and also makes positioning of the Oracle very important.
Last spell Blizz recently added is Void Siphon. I haven't tried this ability yet but I do believe that removal of Cloaking Field was a mistake. I think earlier Cloaking Field on fast unit can add new strategies to the game. It also helps me to get rid of gimmicky Dark Templar which once detected is useless (DT just relies on the moment of surprise but enemy can actually kill Oracle to reveal cloaked units) and replace it with more interesting and useful Disruptor. Also Mothership without cloaking field doesn't have to sit in the middle of the deathball to cloak all units and wait to be destroyed. You could get this ability quite early so I decided it has to be researched at Cybernetics Core OR Fleet Beacon.

Tempest
- Long range artillery.
- built in Stargate, Fleet Beacon required. 300 minerals and 250 gas, 75 seconds, 6 supply
- 200 HP, 2 armor, 150 shields. Attributes: armored, massive, mechanical, air unit. Movement speed 1.88
- can attack ground and air units. 32 damage per attack (+4 per upgrade level), 10 attack range, 2.5 attack cooldown

Gravity Sling upgrade
- gives +8 weapon range
- upgraded in Fleet Beacon, 100 minerals and 100 gas, 110 seconds

I think the original idea of super long range artillery was quite interesting but the Tempest suffered from terribly low DPS and high gas cost. Current incarnation doesn't solve DPS problem (but I haven't had chance to try it out). So I made combination of changes to make Tempest hopefuly more viable.


changes:
Warp Gate
- Warp-in mechanics changed - now you must warp-in units in 'Warp Zone' - within 48 range of any Nexus (this is shown on your minimap and on the battlefield) and also still in the power field OR in range of Warp Prism in phase mode
- Warp Gate research time lowered to 60 seconds
- now can Warp-in on ramps
- in case power field is lost during Warp-in: cooldown will no longer reset and you will loose your money. (KNOWN ISSUE: Ready Warp Gates count (in right bottom corner above command card) will show incorrect number (as if cooldown on Warp Gate was reset)

This change will get rid of annoying hunt for Pylons all over the map and most gimmicky strategies (even though Warping 'from low ground' was removed in HOTS) and possibly make Protoss early mid-game bit stronger: you you can finally research Hallucinations in time they could be useful, get 5 seconds train time discount with Warp Gate and not to forget Protoss still can make sort of proxy Pylons (but not next to the base of enemy right from the start). Warp Prisms can be still used as usual but they are more expensive and more fragile than Pylons, cost supply and require Robotics Facility.

Zealot
- research time of Charge lowered to 110 seconds

With nerf to Warp Gate I think Charge research time could be bit lowered. I'm not sure if Stalker can get some buff from the same reason because Blink makes it quite powerful when used properly.

Sentry
- no longer considered as Psionic
- Force Field duration lowered to 10 seconds
- Hallucination research cost lowered to 50 minerals and 50 gas

Removal of Psionic attribute is done because of the Ghost new bonus damage.
With 5 seconds nerf to FF it still remains quite powerful at splitting armies but makes it less powerful at blocking ramps (now you have Mothership Core to help you with defense).
Blizz recently completely removed Hallucination research requirement but they also got rid of Energize so that limits its very early use. To limit Hallucinations early in this experiment I let research required but at least lowered its cost.

Warp Prism
- no longer considered as Psionic

Colossus
- count limit: 4 Collosi at one time

With new units and abilites it's not that necessary change but it could bring more emphasis on Colossi positioning (survival) as you cannot endlessly reinforce their numbers. Also eliminates PvP StarWars-like Colossi battles. (some people think that Colossus can be simply replaced by Reaver but wouldn't it overlap a bit with Immortal as it is also high burst damage unit? and in case we remove Immortal and add Reaver, what about powerful Ultras in PvZ?)

High Templar
- units affected by Psionic Storm cannot be healed or repaired by abilities (zerg normal regen is allowed)

Small buff that could help when Colossi are absent.

Stargate
- no longer reveals units built

Mothership
- now builds from Mothership Core, costs 325 minerals and 300 gas (+ Mothership Core)
- Cloaking field removed

Vortex changed
- now can target only ground units
- duration lowered to 14 seconds

Null Sphere ability added
- creates sphere (2.75 range) at targeted air unit in which all enemy air units cannot attack. Lasts 10 seconds.
- 50 energy, 10 cast range

Former Blizz change to Vortex that could target only gound units sounded interesting. Shorter duration and exclusion of air units could bring decisions whether you engage the enemy with the rest of ground army and air units or whether you hide ground units to Vortex and flee with air units. Also I added anti air units ability. Hopefully these changes with addition of Tempest and changes to Void Ray could break the late game PvZ rule 'suck everything into the Vortex and hope I will be able to do enough damage'.


-------
GENERAL CONCEPTS

+ Show Spoiler +
my main focus was to make all unit viable and stay true to Blizz design, but apart from that I tried:

- make early(-mid) game more varied (buff to Reaper, Ghost, Hydralisks, new Overseer ability, Warp Gate changes, indroduction of T2 fast unit for Protoss...). This alows P and T to punish Zerg free Droning and basically allows Protoss to do something early. Also makes the game less predictable as current metagame tends too much to longer games.

- make late game less crazy (Larva max count nerf, Fungal Growth nerf, MULE nerf, changes to Warp Gate and Vortex...). Is it that great to see Terran late game comeback because of excessive use of MULEs? Infestors denying almost all harass attempts isn't also very good and not to forget 'everything-solving' Vortex...

- focus on anti deathball abilites (mainly Blinding Cloud, Seeker Missile and Vortex also can count few others). Deathballs will be present in almost all late game battles so I think there should be viable counter abilities that forces you to split it, not just wait and see everything uncontrollably evaporated in the matter of seconds. Changed Blinding cloud (larger radius among others) and easier to use Seeker Missile should help with that. Vortex is cool ability but stacking of air units makes it very deadly when Archons are around. Hopefully the changes to Mothership abilites could make Vortex cool anti deathball ability.

- maintain simplicity of rules. A lot of suggestions was sent on the internet and some of them are just too complicated. Maybe even I went too far (hopefully not) with changes to Warp Gate, Ghost's new ability or Mothership Core.

- make game more fun. Whats the fun in Fungal chains? in frying all workers in seconds with Hellions? in the hunt for Pylons all over the map? in crazy PvP? When I was thinking about these changes I also considered fun factor.

- make game more interesting to watch. Fungal Growth nerf (player can still micro fungaled units a bit, doesn't deny almost all harass attempts which are adding tension), I think improved Reaper could be more very interesting to watch, with changes to Raven it could be used more often, Warhound's AA ability (Flak Bomb) could add thrilling moments (as its more devastating than Thors AA but requires to be manually casted), allowing Mothership Core to use Purify while moving (is certainly more attractive than watching static defense), Colossi count ceiling could also provide tension and not to forget new Protoss T2 harass unit (Disruptor)

- retain balance between low and high level players - mainly present in higher automatic max larva spawn count (good for newbies and no impact on pros) and changed Entomb.


-------
OTHER THINGS TO DISCUSS

I'm quite interested how these suggestions stands in real games (I'm aware that current numbers could cause troubles) even that provocative changes like merging Hellion and Battle Hellion with buffed Reaper, Warp Gate changes and so on.
But apart all mentioned units I'm interested in your opinion about Corruptor, Phoenix and Carrier.

- Corruptor - Blizz tried to make it more interesting with spell that now Oracle has. Do you think it should gain some other new ability?
- Carrier - I think that part of the problem of this unit in SC2 are Interceptors that can die quite easily. What do you think about this unit in HOTS?
- Phoenix - This unit seems to 'super'hard counter Mutas. Do you think that changes to Phoenix-Muta relation are desirable?
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
October 13 2012 12:55 GMT
#2
you forgot 1 important issue
make mothership immune to abduct and neural
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
October 13 2012 13:01 GMT
#3
What makes me laugh is someone, somewhere thinks that list of protoss abilities is "balanced".
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 13:17:40
October 13 2012 13:10 GMT
#4
I am not the best writer but would you check out my thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375156
With warpgate I would love to see it implemented with my web system if you could set that up I think it would be more dynamic and lead to more strategic options for protoss
Allowing warpgates to produce the warpfield alone would add alot for protoss just keep in mind you take away a large advantage my adjusting warpgates as you have

Also the idea of anti building units to snipe undefended expos or production if you leave nothing at home
For example a unit for zerg that burrows and unburrows quickly can move while burrowed and has an upgrade to give it an ability to leap over structures and units but not cliffs.
With a bonus against structures suddenly with tech and production at risk pulling an attack with your whole army isn't feasible and if done right the anti-building unit would trade better in a base race.

As for corrupter what if it could create temporary creep or a vision blocking cloud that blocks air vision(Probably and upgrade)

The carrier would be nice if it had BW micro back, an upgrade for faster/cheaper interceptor production, or a main gun like in the cut scenes would be nice could be a high damage single target ability like yamato or an upgrade that gives it an attack

Phoenixes are good but even though they are good against mutas they are terrible against corruptors maybe an upgrade for mutas speed that would make them fearsome late game I would think

Edit: Less range around the nexus make it more strategic make it like 11-15 and allow for warpgates to extend it also the storm change worries me storm doesn't need to be better as well add the reaver back in its role doesn't overlap with the immortal in any way the reaver is a wonderful unit and I see no reason to limit the colossus numbers just add answers to colossus if you buff corruptors with any usable ability and the warhounds AA range is adequate then there should be little problem
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 13:36 GMT
#5
Oh on another note the MsC should start on the nexus and then be ugraded once to be mobile and then be able to become the mothership this would allow for a choice and a stronger MsC as well give hydras range upgrade again but make it hive and speed lair tech that will allow for more dynamic hydra play and keep it viable late

The warhound worries me it just has to many abilities plus good dps for just not high enough cost I would consider spliting it into two units warhound and ________ (Call it WH2) The warhound should be Mech AA/Core Mech/Mech support not all three so why not make it core mech massive but still quick good dps(lower speed/dps a bit) give it Anti-shrapnel armor -20 aoe damage this would make it a real siege breaker it would be strong against colossus(Hopefully you add reavers) and could tank in front of your tanks then give it a bonus against light and two attacks

This unit could deal effectively with immortals Colossus reaver siege tanks and still ripe up light units all around effective but not overly so

Then you make WH2 Support mech AA give it an aoe AA attack and hay wire plus defensive matrix and you have one bossly support unit plus make haywire effect air at range 7 ground at range 5 and prioritize air when protoss has no air and colossus are out it will be able to target fire them for huge damage (Just my thoughts)

I really love that your making this and though I disagree with a few things still good work :D
Velen
Profile Joined October 2012
Czech Republic5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 14:17:25
October 13 2012 13:46 GMT
#6
On October 13 2012 21:55 myRZeth wrote:
you forgot 1 important issue
make mothership immune to abduct and neural

In this experiment you cannot target massive units with neural parasite so you can't NP MS. You can abduct it but in most of the time its not good idea to have MS too much in the front so I don't find this to be huge problem.

On October 13 2012 22:01 Evangelist wrote:
What makes me laugh is someone, somewhere thinks that list of protoss abilities is "balanced".

sorry, but I dont know what do you refer to

With warpgate I would love to see it implemented with my web system if you could set that up I think it would be more dynamic and lead to more strategic options for protoss

I read your idea and I think it is too much complicated. What I like about Blizz game design is 'easy to learn but difficult to master' (I also like that SC isn't like DOTA).

Also the idea of anti building units to snipe undefended expos or production if you leave nothing at home

you can do this with drops/Muta harass(/Disruptors) etc. and then use the units to fight. Anti building units could be used only against buildings.

As for corrupter what if it could create temporary creep or a vision blocking cloud that blocks air vision

I gave similar creep ability to the Overseer - it can be accessed sooner - in phase that it could help Hydras. Vision blocking cloud sounds interesting but then it would be quite difficult to fight hidden Brood Lords.

Less range around the nexus make it more strategic

Thats definitely an option and I also thought about that. You can try it in game to see how it is/isn't effective.

storm change worries me storm doesn't need to be better as well add the reaver back

If I add Reaver than I probably remove Colossus and then the change to the Storm won't be necessary anymore. I'm kind of curious what other people thinks about Reaver/Immortal relation. Thanks for feedback.

The warhound worries me it just has to many abilities plus good dps

The DPS part could cause troubles and maybe will have to be tuned down but I think making two new mech units is too much + beastly DPS has already Thor. Also the abilities aren't comparable (in power) to those of units with energy and without attack (such as Psi Storm, Fungal etc.). You can try it in game to see for yourself.
Thanks, its completly ok to disagree with me, thats the discussion about
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 14:18:54
October 13 2012 14:11 GMT
#7
As for the Warpgate idea it isn't as complicated as it sounds but just allowing warpgates to create the warp field alone would be beneficial

As for anti building units sorry if i was unclear just give them bonus damage to structures like banelings so that they can take down expansions and tech quickly to force people to keep their base better defended it would be a brawl style unit that is more effective in small groups you can do this with added life regen, more armor or front loaded damage(preferred) this benefits trying to do multi-pronged attacks and forces more consolidated defense with units not just structures(Photon cannons, crawlers, bunkers) this is somthing that is a different kind of scary from drops/muta/disruptors because a few can take out several structures while a those three focus on killing workers hurting their economy unless you mean a doom drop witch I would prefer be nonviable unless you are way ahead or gambling

To be more specific about corruptor vision blocker you could make it akin to blinding cloud reducing vision range past that point that way it doesn't just block vision only hinders it forces a bit more micro on both parts keep BL safer around a "fixed" position as

also I was reading you stuff I think rather than redline reactor for bcs a flat speed increase or extra armor upgrade might suit them better and for banes lategame use is limited because of all the splash killing them they either need to be tougher or have some other way to get into the fight that or a way to make less better like a splash radius upgrade something minor you could also make them scale better with upgrades

and again at hive give hydras their range upgrade and lair speed it would make hydra plays more effective and promote skirmishes since then they can pull back faster and regen
purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 14:57:45
October 13 2012 14:55 GMT
#8
I know this is just a mod, but why is dark templar removed? I know it has what seems to be gimmicky strategies associated with it, but that is mainly because people don't know how to scout/respond. Dark templar is as integral to Starcraft (multiplayer) as the carrier.

Mothership should just be removed from the game. Limits to the number of a particular you can get is silly and not Starcraft (i.e. the colossus in your mod).

Just play Starbow.
T P Z sagi
Velen
Profile Joined October 2012
Czech Republic5 Posts
October 13 2012 15:07 GMT
#9
ah, so something like Reaper is in WoL? (special anti-building attack, killing workers in miliseconds)

To be more specific about corruptor vision blocker you could make it akin to blinding cloud reducing vision range past that point that way it doesn't just block vision only hinders it forces a bit more micro on both parts keep BL safer around a "fixed" position

I probably don't understand it. Could you give me example how to use it (and how it helps) in specific situation like for example Protoss deathball (zealots, stalkers, colossi, void rays) VS broodfestor with corruptors?
I had on my mind idea of unit that would suck baneling to death and then spit its acid but that would be probably too crazy on Corruptor. Or wouldn't it? Probably will be better to stick with something more conservative like baneling range upgrade you suggested.

I think rather than redline reactor for bcs a flat speed increase or extra armor upgrade

sounds good, I might give this a try

and again at hive give hydras their range upgrade and lair speed it would make hydra plays more effective and promote skirmishes since then they can pull back faster and regen

I think (and probably Blizz too) that Lair Hydras should be used with creep (via Overlords and in this experiment Overseers) as they can deal huge amount of damage quickly when unchecked... but I can definitely try Lair Hydra speed here

PS: I updated previous post as I wasnt expecting such a fast response
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 15:11 GMT
#10
I believe it is more effective and productive to have various people making these modes testing different ideas and concepts if I had the Know-how I would make my own because then you can show examples and allow people to test and explain concepts

It allows for more freedom and creativity and testing of ideas overall it is a wonderful thing also DTs though awesome are not viable currently you would have to cheapen their structure reduce the build time and adjust stats and probably add an upgrade to make them truly useful because there are now so many ways to deal with cloaked units
My only solution so far is to increase movement speed slightly and make then marginally more durable that would make them more viable overall but low tier players couldn't handle it hard to balance but I have made it work in Masters as it is so I am not sure what to do with it...
Velen
Profile Joined October 2012
Czech Republic5 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 15:29:20
October 13 2012 15:20 GMT
#11
why is dark templar removed?

It's explained in OP under the Oracle. I replaced it with different unit (Disruptor) and moved Cloaking Field to the Oracle.

Dark templar is as integral to Starcraft (multiplayer) as the carrier. (...) Limits to the number of a particular you can get is silly and not Starcraft

still fascinates me how units that aren't used that much are integral for multiplayer. Anyway I respect your opinion but you didn't provide any arguments which makes discussion impossible. Could you elaborate your opinion a bit?

Also I know Starbow but I choosed different approach and stayed closer to Blizz design.

I believe it is more effective and productive to have various people making these modes testing different ideas and concepts

so do I

DTs though awesome are not viable currently

yea. they can be used to surprise your enemy but nothing more. Thats why I tried different unit (more info in OP under Disruptor).
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 15:34 GMT
#12
With the corruptor ability it would reduce sight range so like a sight blocker everything past it is blocked but like the blinding cloud it would be a set amount so a unit standing next to it that has 10 sight range might lose say 6 so it would have a sight range of 4 past the corruptors ability so you could use it to force vikings to close in and they would not be sure what they were up against till they were much closer then normal meaning you could cover retreats against superior range or force units to close much closer then they would prefer it would mostly effect blink stalkers and vikings because vikings would have to reach say 4 range to gain sight and with blinding cloud you could prevent the enemy from seeing your vipers/lings until they already blinked on top of them it could also reduce detect range that would create very interesting combinations with burrow

For banes I had an idea earlier for a unit that you make after lair/hive could come from mutated bane nest but it would have an ability to plant "Banespores" (not a great name) into enemy units making them explode after a delay it would be a low tier (1-2) counter style unit think Range 3-5 baneling that doesn't die the idea was it would burrow and unburrow quickly and move while burrowed it would have a "melee" attack i picture it like a scorpion kinda like the queen

for anti building kinda like reaper but not for killing workers (it could do it) but it is supposed to be a fast-ish but the idea is it gets relatively good bonus like 25+ against buildings and relatively good in skirmish style fights but not straight on examples

These are more like concepts

For zerg
Concept would be fast stealthy
A move while burrow unit that burrows and unburrows almost instantly and can move while burrowed unique ability to leap from below the ground similar to blink but not up cliffs just over units buildings void areas ect
It would mean you have to spread out your forces or lose outer bases, tech or production

For protoss
Concept would be either fast high damage or durable juggernaut style
Think dark templar's big mean olderbrother
Or and elite zealot style unit

DTsOlderbrother
Would be fast have and ability to use void shroud cloaking allied units in a small area akin to storm but it would dissipate faster with more units under its effects this unit would make small harass style attacks much more effective and as a unit it would have high damage to structures so it would tear up base defenses forcing a reaction

Elite zealot
High shields unit akin to archon but with 2 shields armor and bonus damage to structures again slow high damage attacks and instead of charge its shields would recharge faster after battle making it better at hit and run but with most of its health in shields you would have to make sure you pulled out early and it wouldn't be good against something that could chase it or out ranged it

Terran
A real Gunship meant to support mech and take out structures works well with banshee and any mech comp witch tend to be immobile it would have high health and trade well against small groups of GtA but poorly against typical AtA but you allow for more mid map control and forcing the enemy to keep some AA patrolling their bases

larse
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
1611 Posts
October 13 2012 16:05 GMT
#13
I dont like most of the changes. There are too many rules and just doesn't keep the rule of simplicity of BW and SC2.
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 16:16 GMT
#14
On October 14 2012 01:05 larse wrote:
I dont like most of the changes. There are too many rules and just doesn't keep the rule of simplicity of BW and SC2.


My only problem is the macro mechanics seem a bit limited but that can be fixed a few abilities are also a little complex like storm and the ghosts slow and limits like 4 colossus 4 mules and 9 larva max but he can adjust it over time its something new don't criticize offer suggestions on how to fix it

I like mules, mass larva and warpgates but limiting them might make for a better game but 4 mules if going a bit far it is only 270mins per mule every 180sec not over the top fast but not way to much just allow for a way to deal with it give people a simple tool that beats a problem and they can make it do much more
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
October 13 2012 16:35 GMT
#15
So you add 4 spells to the Warhound, because....?
Aside from the ridiculous amount of other changes. No wait, I can´t put them aside; most units only have a passing resemblance to how they are now and you add several "can only build x amount"

I am amazed that you looked at this and thought "Yep, people will agree this is much better than current WoL"
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 17:00:44
October 13 2012 16:45 GMT
#16
This is an interesting custom map but nothing more. It certainly won't be regarded as decent replacements for HotS balance testing.

The changes are radical, making more gimmicky abilities rather than addressing the core problems with SC2 that most good players have known about since the game's creation. This community is just catching up to what we've pretty much known all along would become the leading problems seen with balance.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
October 13 2012 16:59 GMT
#17
You made way too many changes at once.

I would go with a scientific method approach. Change one thing at once and see how it affects the balance.

That said, this map would need a LOT more publicity in order to obtain a sufficient amount of data. Either that or a bunch of pros playing a handful of games each on it.
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 17:13 GMT
#18
On October 14 2012 01:45 sCCrooked wrote:
This is an interesting custom map but nothing more. It certainly won't be regarded as decent replacements for HotS balance testing.

The changes are radical, making more gimmicky abilities rather than addressing the core problems with SC2 that most good players have known about since the game's creation. This community is just catching up to what we've pretty much known all along would become the leading problems seen with balance.


Would you share your thoughts with us then what are the main problems and what do you think could fix it? I would prefer you specify what you don't like and why, rather then throwing out gimmicky and not addressing the core issues.
Valon
Profile Joined June 2011
United States329 Posts
October 13 2012 17:23 GMT
#19
Why do all these changes make the game terrible. Sounds like someone just removed every ability that they lost.
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
October 13 2012 17:26 GMT
#20
On October 14 2012 02:13 AzraelArchontas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2012 01:45 sCCrooked wrote:
This is an interesting custom map but nothing more. It certainly won't be regarded as decent replacements for HotS balance testing.

The changes are radical, making more gimmicky abilities rather than addressing the core problems with SC2 that most good players have known about since the game's creation. This community is just catching up to what we've pretty much known all along would become the leading problems seen with balance.


Would you share your thoughts with us then what are the main problems and what do you think could fix it? I would prefer you specify what you don't like and why, rather then throwing out gimmicky and not addressing the core issues.


Its pretty obvious from what I said. Gimmicky abilities do not make up for core problems with units themselves as well as how the game works.

On the private forums for pro-gamers only, various balance discussions have taken place. A lot of them are really solid ideas (because nobody except pros are even allowed to view that forum unless you know some in real life who log in and let you look at it).

Adding more abilities is not what this game needs and in fact will just make things worse. Gateway units themselves probably need a buff of some sort whether it be to speed so you can actually catch units or whether its to the armor/damage so their damage potential is higher.

Terran units need to have adjustments as well since you can produce such cheap and incredibly powerful units for virtually no cost thanks to the existence of M.U.L.E.s

Big clunky melee units like the Ultralisk need a serious tuning because their size and inability to even get to enemy forces much less deal damage is insufficient.

Those suggestions only are the tip of the iceberg but honestly any high masters player will be able to tell you the game itself is littered with very serious problems that Blizzard either doesn't know how to, or absolutely refuses to address. Pros have all concluded the exact same things and despite the literally unanimous decisions on these issues, nothing at all has been done.

I shouldn't really have to explain all this though unless you don't really possess a good understanding of the game (high masters or above). Any player of that level or above will be able to tell you that adding a bunch of abilities is not how you fix problems like MULE abuse, Warpgate mechanics, Larva mechanics or how mining works (worker saturation necessary for optimal resource collection, etc).
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
AzraelArchontas
Profile Joined September 2012
United States78 Posts
October 13 2012 17:36 GMT
#21
On October 14 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2012 02:13 AzraelArchontas wrote:
On October 14 2012 01:45 sCCrooked wrote:
This is an interesting custom map but nothing more. It certainly won't be regarded as decent replacements for HotS balance testing.

The changes are radical, making more gimmicky abilities rather than addressing the core problems with SC2 that most good players have known about since the game's creation. This community is just catching up to what we've pretty much known all along would become the leading problems seen with balance.


Would you share your thoughts with us then what are the main problems and what do you think could fix it? I would prefer you specify what you don't like and why, rather then throwing out gimmicky and not addressing the core issues.


Its pretty obvious from what I said. Gimmicky abilities do not make up for core problems with units themselves as well as how the game works.

On the private forums for pro-gamers only, various balance discussions have taken place. A lot of them are really solid ideas (because nobody except pros are even allowed to view that forum unless you know some in real life who log in and let you look at it).

Adding more abilities is not what this game needs and in fact will just make things worse. Gateway units themselves probably need a buff of some sort whether it be to speed so you can actually catch units or whether its to the armor/damage so their damage potential is higher.

Terran units need to have adjustments as well since you can produce such cheap and incredibly powerful units for virtually no cost thanks to the existence of M.U.L.E.s

Big clunky melee units like the Ultralisk need a serious tuning because their size and inability to even get to enemy forces much less deal damage is insufficient.

Those suggestions only are the tip of the iceberg but honestly any high masters player will be able to tell you the game itself is littered with very serious problems that Blizzard either doesn't know how to, or absolutely refuses to address. Pros have all concluded the exact same things and despite the literally unanimous decisions on these issues, nothing at all has been done.

I shouldn't really have to explain all this though unless you don't really possess a good understanding of the game (high masters or above). Any player of that level or above will be able to tell you that adding a bunch of abilities is not how you fix problems like MULE abuse, Warpgate mechanics, Larva mechanics or how mining works (worker saturation necessary for optimal resource collection, etc).


:D I respect you a great deal posting a logical response I came to the same conclusion glad to know someone agrees on those issues only thing I don't agree with is I want more units/abilities but only after main balance changes I love options but when the options already available are broken it tends to leave me disheartened.
Thanks for your direct response :D I appreciate it.
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
October 13 2012 17:43 GMT
#22
On October 14 2012 02:36 AzraelArchontas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2012 02:26 sCCrooked wrote:
On October 14 2012 02:13 AzraelArchontas wrote:
On October 14 2012 01:45 sCCrooked wrote:
This is an interesting custom map but nothing more. It certainly won't be regarded as decent replacements for HotS balance testing.

The changes are radical, making more gimmicky abilities rather than addressing the core problems with SC2 that most good players have known about since the game's creation. This community is just catching up to what we've pretty much known all along would become the leading problems seen with balance.


Would you share your thoughts with us then what are the main problems and what do you think could fix it? I would prefer you specify what you don't like and why, rather then throwing out gimmicky and not addressing the core issues.


Its pretty obvious from what I said. Gimmicky abilities do not make up for core problems with units themselves as well as how the game works.

On the private forums for pro-gamers only, various balance discussions have taken place. A lot of them are really solid ideas (because nobody except pros are even allowed to view that forum unless you know some in real life who log in and let you look at it).

Adding more abilities is not what this game needs and in fact will just make things worse. Gateway units themselves probably need a buff of some sort whether it be to speed so you can actually catch units or whether its to the armor/damage so their damage potential is higher.

Terran units need to have adjustments as well since you can produce such cheap and incredibly powerful units for virtually no cost thanks to the existence of M.U.L.E.s

Big clunky melee units like the Ultralisk need a serious tuning because their size and inability to even get to enemy forces much less deal damage is insufficient.

Those suggestions only are the tip of the iceberg but honestly any high masters player will be able to tell you the game itself is littered with very serious problems that Blizzard either doesn't know how to, or absolutely refuses to address. Pros have all concluded the exact same things and despite the literally unanimous decisions on these issues, nothing at all has been done.

I shouldn't really have to explain all this though unless you don't really possess a good understanding of the game (high masters or above). Any player of that level or above will be able to tell you that adding a bunch of abilities is not how you fix problems like MULE abuse, Warpgate mechanics, Larva mechanics or how mining works (worker saturation necessary for optimal resource collection, etc).


:D I respect you a great deal posting a logical response I came to the same conclusion glad to know someone agrees on those issues only thing I don't agree with is I want more units/abilities but only after main balance changes I love options but when the options already available are broken it tends to leave me disheartened.
Thanks for your direct response :D I appreciate it.


Well you're not exactly disagreeing with me since I basically said that core issues aren't solved by abilities. Abilities are great... AFTER the core of the game is so solid that they simply augment good aspects of play rather than trying to cover up for serious problems with the units themselves.

You can give a man the most technologically-advanced laser-guided AI-assisted weaponry but if the man you give it to is an absolute moron... well you get the point.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Chloroplaste
Profile Joined February 2011
France281 Posts
October 13 2012 17:49 GMT
#23
Some good idea and a lot of effort in this map, great job !
Wild Weasel
Profile Joined January 2012
United States52 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 18:27:48
October 13 2012 18:11 GMT
#24
Two things really don't like

1. Banelings with +3 attack and that upgrade would one shot marines regardless of armor or number of medivacs. Given the massive amount of splash infestors already do, this would probably make marines obsolete in TvZ.

2. Limit terran to 4 mules at one time? After 3 or 4 base, I'm pretty sure that would make orbitals have more energy than they could deplete.

EDIT:
Read over some more stuff, two more terran changes i don't like. (I play terran, so that's why I'm mostly critiquing the terran changes. Go with what you know)

The banshee already has stupidly high dps, adding more dps against armored units might make it broken.
And re-adding the warhound with haywire missiles and an ability that deflects 50% damage? Along with two other abilities?
Velen
Profile Joined October 2012
Czech Republic5 Posts
October 16 2012 10:56 GMT
#25
That said, this map would need a LOT more publicity in order to obtain a sufficient amount of data.


you are probably right...

anyway, thanks for all feedback
Fen1kz
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation216 Posts
October 16 2012 11:14 GMT
#26
removed DT? unplayable
Protein
Profile Joined August 2010
United States132 Posts
October 16 2012 11:24 GMT
#27
On October 13 2012 22:01 Evangelist wrote:
What makes me laugh is someone, somewhere thinks that list of protoss abilities is "balanced".


You're incredibly biased if you think that Protoss have the best deal in this mod/map.

Ghosts cost 125 minerals? BCs facerape everything?
Did you even look at the warhound for a split second?
EllisA
Profile Joined April 2011
United States6 Posts
October 16 2012 15:15 GMT
#28
I don't think I would ever play this game

Those Protoss changes look abysmal. Sentry and colossus are broken after what you've done to them. Which also means protoss warpgates in general are broken. Plus, with your new warpgate restrictions, Terran early game has never sounded easier and early aggression is auto win.

At least it was a nice write up :/
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