This wouldn't help. Simple changes to the Collosis would not "fix" it because it was designed to be a certain way (easy to use, minimal micro unit, fast, cliffwalking, high dps) basically the perfect A move unit. And with the game the way it is it is an absolutely essential unit. It must remain the way it is in order for Protoss to be viable in any of the match ups.

Either:
1. Redesign the Collosis completely
2. Remove the need for a Collosis

Either way Blizzard will not listen to any advice like this. They will do whatever they want and right now for Hots its clear they are not into shaking up the game much (Especially for Protoss).

This thread is pointless beyond having a discussion about game design.

TzTz

Germany511 Posts

September 27 2012 08:08 GMT

#22

2 Marauders and 7 marines will have the same dps-to-surface area ratio as 18 marauders and 63 marines.

This is just wrong, sorry...

Surface area is directly proportional to the radius of the deathball. By adding more units you always add a certain amount of space to the deathball. But to make a circle with a larger radius you need exponentially more space to fill it.

With radius of 1 you have a circumference of 2 pi, which is your surface area vs melee units. Your space is 1 pi. So thats a ratio of 0.5.

Radius 2 you have circumference of 4 pi and space is 4 pi as well. ratio 1. r 3 circumference 6 space is 9, ratio 1.5.

Doesn't stay the same, that's why groups of balled up marines are great vs zerglings, whereas spread out or in small numbers zerglings are much stronger vs marines.

Also doesnt make much sense to make that comparison at all, as was mentioned, splash counters the density of your ball directly. Enemy units are ranged as well.

Much of the death ball effect stems from the 1-huge-control-group syndrome. Try moving your army being only able to select 12 units at once. the won't ball up much :D

However I agree, that changing the ability of the colossus to walk over your units would at least take away so much from the "death ball" effect. You would have to rebalance it though. Maybe it would play out more interestingly, but you can't tell if you don't try.

Tedde93

Sweden169 Posts

September 27 2012 11:57 GMT

#23

This change would take away half of the micro that actually exists in late game pvp (spreading units mainly collosi) beacause the collosi will already be placed in a rather favorable position.

TC_Beynbio

Norway81 Posts

September 27 2012 13:00 GMT

#24

Ground collision for the Collossus i agree with that. It does make the army look bigger than just somekind of packed of ball were you don't know where your HT or sentries and can't click them individiually

TestSubject893

United States774 Posts

September 27 2012 13:33 GMT

#25

Its seems to me like you are misusing or have a funny definition for surface area. We don't really care about a third dimension, so perimeter (measured in linear distance, not area) might be a lot more meaningful than surface area; however, I think the concept you really want to look at, and are already using in your analysis, is just plain area of the footprint of a unit or deathball, not the 'surface area'.

Stoffelhase

Germany162 Posts

September 27 2012 14:42 GMT

#26

On September 27 2012 09:57 Rasera wrote:
To save time, here is the problem simply: The Collossus is not a ground unit that can be attacked by air. It is an aerial unit that can be hit by Ground attacks.

This is wrong, colossi collide with themselves unlike 'real' air units (before they autosplit a bit).
Huge difference in gameplay!

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

September 27 2012 15:12 GMT

#27

On September 27 2012 09:57 Rasera wrote:
2 Marauders and 7 marines will have the same dps-to-surface area ratio as 18 marauders and 63 marines.

However, It is worth mentioning that Terran have the highest Damage-to-surface area ratio pre death-ball stage. It is due to this that many TvX strategies revolve around ending the game pre-death-ball, and many XvT strategies revolve around passivity until death-ball stage.

You provide an example (with arbitrary numbers, but we don't want to be nitpicking here) that shows a correct aspect of the terran race and also your statement below about many terran strategies revolving around dealing killing blows/do significant damage is true.

However, you seem to be forgetting one huge factor in these comparisions. Terran units are usually not as tanky as other units and terrans don't have the same aoe as other races (primarily in comparision to protoss), but on the other hand deal way more dps compared to their counterparts (there are no equal units but on similar tech/cost etc) from the other two races and all of them are ranged as well.

This means that once a zerg player adds more and more lings/roaches/banes/ultralisks or a protoss adds more zealots/archons they suffer heavily from diminishing returns as they start blocking each other due to having to many low range or melee units and don't contribute to the battle anymore. Most of a terran army (except for the backlines of terran bio, but tanks, vikings, bcs as well as a good chunk of the bio) will always deal dmg right from the start of a battle.

When a zerg or protoss player engages their broodlords/infestors with fg/it's etc or colossi/storms etc will most likely be able to deal damage right away while their other low range/melee units will start fighting way later because they need to wait for their buddies who block their pathing to die before they can engage on their own. And all other protoss/zerg units that are not siege ranged units (like hydras/stalkers/sentries/immortals) will also not be able to engage 100% (very same as stimmed bio, just that they even take a bit longer to form their concave or get in position due to stim speed).

So in this aspect terran is actually pretty good of, the more vikings/bcs etc you add, they all contribute to the fight 100% of the time, same goes for tanks with mech. Just the backrows of bio won't do that but that's even far worse for other races.

So the bigger armies get the more effictive terran armies get. If the bio/mech ball gets twice in size and the zerg/protoss army as well that is only to be benefit of the terran. So now before you cry out loud and tell me that terrans have a tough time lategame let me finish. This is only true excluding aoe dmg at all. But this is the reason why (like you mentioned yourself) many XvT strategies revolve around passivity until death-ball stage. They want to hit when they have all their unit upgrades (combat shields, stim, conc. shells if we refer to a bioball) and fight preferably when their army is biggest but before the opponent has aoe or any significant aoe or any siege type units (broods) that would prevent their army from closing in and killing the opponent. Spreading out units becomes way more difficult the larger armies get and the more aoe is out on the field and it's way more likely to lose (in comparision to the army size) more stuff to aoe dmg than with smaller armies. That's when terrans try to use small raiding groups usually.

Conclusion: While you might be able to argument that aoe/siege is equal to more dps in the same area in lategame szenarios it does not per se mean that terran units are not able to engage as often as units from the other two races. In fact, they have the best tools for it.

On September 27 2012 09:57 Rasera wrote:
To save time, here is the problem simply: The Collossus is not a ground unit that can be attacked by air. It is an aerial unit that can be hit by Ground attacks.

Like the poster above me said already it's a ground unit that can be hit from air (they block each other) and also can't walk whereever they please (there are a lot of spots on cliffs from/to bases where colossi can't walk and have to go around as well as those rocks in the middle of the maps).

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

September 27 2012 15:37 GMT

#28

OP seemed to be putting together a half-decent argument, but then went full retard into suggesting the BC be turned into a Brood Lord-esque siege unit so that Terran can more easily join in on the death ball fun.

...

So, instead of trying to add more shit on top of an already bad mechanic, lets talk about the range argument, which I think is a good one.

Every ranged unit in the game could stand to lose 1-2 range. This would have many beneficial effects for the entirety of the game, the most notable-of-which being the handicapping of death ball by reducing effective unit DPS in general.

You would also see other awesome effects such as static defense becoming more useful vs things like banshees and early pushes.

Terrain becoming useful again.

Split armies and micro being worthwhile as more surface area = more goodness.

Actually, the ONLY bad thing I can think of with an across-the-board nerf to unit range is force field becoming even more powerful than it already is.

Big J

Austria16289 Posts

September 27 2012 15:49 GMT

#29

On September 28 2012 00:37 Jermstuddog wrote:
OP seemed to be putting together a half-decent argument, but then went full retard into suggesting the BC be turned into a Brood Lord-esque siege unit so that Terran can more easily join in on the death ball fun.

...

So, instead of trying to add more shit on top of an already bad mechanic, lets talk about the range argument, which I think is a good one.

Every ranged unit in the game could stand to lose 1-2 range. This would have many beneficial effects for the entirety of the game, the most notable-of-which being the handicapping of death ball by reducing effective unit DPS in general.

You would also see other awesome effects such as static defense becoming more useful vs things like banshees and early pushes.

Terrain becoming useful again.

Split armies and micro being worthwhile as more surface area = more goodness.

Actually, the ONLY bad thing I can think of with an across-the-board nerf to unit range is force field becoming even more powerful than it already is.

Yeah, I totally agree. It would take a few adjustment to other units stats as well (e.g. speed/HP of melee units), but that would do miles more than other suggestions like the movement changes to destroy turtle-ball play.

ejozl

Denmark3505 Posts

September 27 2012 16:06 GMT

#30

I think it is an issue that Colossus can sit on top of your army, but i think it's an even bigger problem that Air units have no collision. Lets talk about Viking damage pr. surface area..