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Warhound = Roach.
"Hey guys, I know we've had like 4 fucking years to design a unit. Here's what we've come up with: It's a maruader in a gundam suit. He shots pew-pew lasers and runs like mech-Maradona. Now Terrans have a roach! Pay me 50$, yo!"
Remove both and invent something new. BW had so many AMAZING units. What other game had a fucking ARBITER? Or how about something as cool as the Ghost!? Shuttle sucked and so did scout - but you win some - reinvent some. Warp prism is cool. Back to the drawing boards guys. The game is boring as hell right now.
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I watched 4-5 games of White Ra vs. Qxc last night. What is written all over here does not mesh with what I saw. Qxc did not make them look "A-movey".
I'm not saying they're fine - after all he was often able to kill 4-6 gateway units kiting with a single Warhound, but I find the complaints that Warhounds are "A-movey" and Marines are "micro intensive" to be weird. What makes them so? Is it the stim? Or is it how pros have used marines? If so, I'd take a look at how pros are using Warhounds. They do not appear to be a-moving, and using the rest of their time to... macro?
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Nice one avilo, I really like your style and effort, totally agree. The a-move mech needs to stop and stop FAST.
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My biggest issue with some of the things being said is the fact that people keep adding some type of satndard to "mech" play. Yes, the traditional meching style is to gain position and slowly gain ground on your opponent until you're sieging their base. However, I don't think this automatically requires mech to BE slow moving and chess like. I think the idea behind the Warhound is nice, to give mech some more versatility, the ability to be more mobile with stronger units and be hyper aggressive instead of super passive. Now people have said "You can be super aggressive with current mech, just aggressive leap frog tanks" which is just stupid.
I think mech should have the option of being able to move around easier without having to buy a fucking engagement ring for their position, but I don't think this would take the role of Bio, since bio comes down to a lot of micro, drop harass, and multi-pronged attacks. Again, I just feel that the idea behind this unit is not a bad one, even if it's design is overall slightly worse, I think it adds a whole new dynamic to mech and I feel people need to stop looking to broodwar to emulate some sort of source material and be hell set on sticking to the standard slow style of mech simply for the sake of tradition.
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On September 07 2012 02:58 Odinsphere wrote:
Wait a minute guys. Imagine a world where heart of the swarm has been out for longer than a day and a half. Imagine in this world, people have come up with legitimate strategies to deal with warhounds. Now imagine that crying for potential nerfs might be a little premature at this point. The game is evolving, and people have just gotten their feet wet with this new stuff. A terran player actually pressuring a zerg early game for mass droning? OH MY GOD.
Your missing the point. Fuck balance. Fuck whether the warhound is OP or not.
What matters is the design of the unit (and I am not talking about the appearance). And its absolutely terrible. Warhound will never be an interesting unit, just like the collosus never will be, and the roach never will be.
As a terran player I want to switch race.
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On September 07 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
I watched 4-5 games of White Ra vs. Qxc last night. What is written all over here does not mesh with what I saw. Qxc did not make them look "A-movey".
I'm not saying they're fine - after all he was often able to kill 4-6 gateway units kiting with a single Warhound, but I find the complaints that Warhounds are "A-movey" and Marines are "micro intensive" to be weird. What makes them so? Is it the stim? Or is it how pros have used marines? If so, I'd take a look at how pros are using Warhounds. They do not appear to be a-moving, and using the rest of their time to... macro?
On September 07 2012 05:44 Deleuze wrote:
Nice one avilo, I really like your style and effort, totally agree. The a-move mech needs to stop and stop FAST.
These two posts are the best part of this thread and all others about the warhound.
A-move = Awesome-move. Almost too awesome.
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On September 07 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
I watched 4-5 games of White Ra vs. Qxc last night. What is written all over here does not mesh with what I saw. Qxc did not make them look "A-movey".
I'm not saying they're fine - after all he was often able to kill 4-6 gateway units kiting with a single Warhound, but I find the complaints that Warhounds are "A-movey" and Marines are "micro intensive" to be weird. What makes them so? Is it the stim? Or is it how pros have used marines? If so, I'd take a look at how pros are using Warhounds. They do not appear to be a-moving, and using the rest of their time to... macro?
Marines are very lowhp and very versatile due to drops. The difference between a toppro and someone in masters or w/e using the marine is HUGE while its relatively easy to use the warhound properly because of its incredible range/speed/beefyness.
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On September 07 2012 05:36 Emon_ wrote:
Warhound = Roach.
"Hey guys, I know we've had like 4 fucking years to design a unit. Here's what we've come up with: It's a maruader in a gundam suit. He shots pew-pew lasers and runs like mech-Maradona. Now Terrans have a roach! Pay me 50$, yo!"
Remove both and invent something new. BW had so many AMAZING units. What other game had a fucking ARBITER? Or how about something as cool as the Ghost!? Shuttle sucked and so did scout - but you win some - reinvent some. Warp prism is cool. Back to the drawing boards guys. The game is boring as hell right now.
You know how come people aren't just remaking their own game and playing on it?(No not sc2bw). Start a new revolution
similar to DOTA in the w3 custom. I really would really love it if a game developer out there remade Starcraft in a different name and show the world "this is how it's supposed to be". :D
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On September 07 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
I watched 4-5 games of White Ra vs. Qxc last night. What is written all over here does not mesh with what I saw. Qxc did not make them look "A-movey".
I'm not saying they're fine - after all he was often able to kill 4-6 gateway units kiting with a single Warhound, but I find the complaints that Warhounds are "A-movey" and Marines are "micro intensive" to be weird. What makes them so? Is it the stim? Or is it how pros have used marines? If so, I'd take a look at how pros are using Warhounds. They do not appear to be a-moving, and using the rest of their time to... macro?
The warhound can stutter step micro just like a bio unit can. But when you reach mid-later portions of the game with higher scaled armies it in effect becomes a roach/marauder a-move type of unit.
What you're seeing is stutter step micro early on in games because the warhound outranges most early game options from all three races (including in TvT) and is as fast as a bio unit with stim. Yes, that is micro, but once again, design-wise, that's stutter step micro.
The only good things you can take from the warhound so far are that it forces Zergs in TvZ to build something other than drones and queens. They have to build spines/roaches/speedlings to defend adequately which fixes the "get 80 drones + queens and defend literally everything."
But once again, this thread is more about the design of the unit rather than it's use in the metagame or it's balance statistically.
You'll also notice as I described in the OP in this thread that the warhound completely makes the siege tank / positional mech play obsolete. If you are playing in the beta right now or watching streams, try and keep track of how many siege tanks you see/make...or rather how many aren't there when players are "going mech."
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On September 07 2012 06:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:38 Treehead wrote:
I watched 4-5 games of White Ra vs. Qxc last night. What is written all over here does not mesh with what I saw. Qxc did not make them look "A-movey".
I'm not saying they're fine - after all he was often able to kill 4-6 gateway units kiting with a single Warhound, but I find the complaints that Warhounds are "A-movey" and Marines are "micro intensive" to be weird. What makes them so? Is it the stim? Or is it how pros have used marines? If so, I'd take a look at how pros are using Warhounds. They do not appear to be a-moving, and using the rest of their time to... macro? You'll also notice as I described in the OP in this thread that the warhound completely makes the siege tank / positional mech play obsolete. If you are playing in the beta right now or watching streams, try and keep track of how many siege tanks you see/make...or rather how many aren't there when players are "going mech."
Tzain barely holding off warhound pushes with tanks/bio vs random players is pretty silly. The vZ allins are super silly too.
Removing the Thor and making the Warhound an AA competent ground unit is more effective and logical than simply replacing tanks with Warhounds and keeping the Thor in the game.
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I feel the Warhound drastically effects TvT and TvP, but as for TvZ, if the Zerg opened a Speedling expand, they can hold it and generally I see Tanks as a better alternative to Warhounds in the TvZ match up, just based on watching Demuslim and some others.
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On September 07 2012 02:30 MoonCricket wrote:This 2.85 movement speed is bullshit, it's ridiculous to have a mech unit faster than a Kenyan sprinter.
Ignoring the hellion, and the stalker and any flying mechanical units that go over 2.25 speed right??? The warhound speed is fine, changing it's supply to better represent its threat and adding a mild research cost to create delays for missile timings would solve the problem... if anything else was added, it would be a raw damage nerf from 23 -> 22/21/20...
The slowness of mech has always been it's least attractive feature relative to stim and medivacs...
On September 07 2012 07:08 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:58 avilo wrote:
You'll also notice as I described in the OP in this thread that the warhound completely makes the siege tank / positional mech play obsolete. If you are playing in the beta right now or watching streams, try and keep track of how many siege tanks you see/make...or rather how many aren't there when players are "going mech." Tzain barely holding off warhound pushes with tanks/bio vs random players is pretty silly. The vZ allins are super silly too. Removing the Thor and making the Warhound an AA competent ground unit is more effective and logical than simply replacing tanks with Warhounds and keeping the Thor in the game.
Tanks are also awful because they serve only 1 successful purpose outside of the mirror matchup: killing banelings.
Positional play with tanks is basically dead, because small numbers of tanks don't have the same effect that they did in broodwar. While sieged tanks allow a player to lock down 1 specific area, it is much too easy to circumvent tanks or catch them in vulnerable positions that make their high supply and resource costs unrewarding.
If terran had a better way of killing banelings that siege tanks, siege tanks would almost never be used outside of TvT. Now that warhounds are becoming stapple in TvT and dispite the fact that warhounds need a nerf, the siege tank needs something to restore the incentive of that investment in place of the mobile WarMarine/BioHound play.
Make warhounds 3 supply from 2
Make the mech-missile require the an upgrade like concussive shell for marauders (never bought in TvZ rofl)
aaannnd give tanks 60 vs armored, instead of 50
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Warhounds are to good. Just watched them make a protoss army look silly. Storms do very little to them too. I think if anything needs to be nerfed its their rate of fire and their range. They just poke in... shoot and run away.
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On September 07 2012 07:45 wizshaw2 wrote:
Warhounds are to good. Just watched them make a protoss army look silly. Storms do very little to them too. I think if anything needs to be nerfed its their rate of fire and their range. They just poke in... shoot and run away.
since when has storm ever threatened units with more than 100 hp? especially units that can actually move *cough cough siege tanks*...
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I'm pretty much giving up until warhounds are patched. I have lost 3 games total to non-terrans, even beating some GM's in PvP. And then promptly losing to 0/0 mass warhounds.
Slower, less range, 3 supply, increase costs, missiles are an upgrade, less base damage, 0 base armor. I think with all that it may, very small chance, but may not be insanely OP. I'm really surprised at how balanced most of the game that this version of the warhound got through.
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On September 06 2012 23:26 [F_]aths wrote:
I, on the other hand, like the look of the warhound. Nice technical look.
I always thought it was impossible for an opinion to be objectively wrong, but there you go.
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On September 07 2012 05:56 FortMonty wrote:
My biggest issue with some of the things being said is the fact that people keep adding some type of satndard to "mech" play. Yes, the traditional meching style is to gain position and slowly gain ground on your opponent until you're sieging their base. However, I don't think this automatically requires mech to BE slow moving and chess like. I think the idea behind the Warhound is nice, to give mech some more versatility, the ability to be more mobile with stronger units and be hyper aggressive instead of super passive. Now people have said "You can be super aggressive with current mech, just aggressive leap frog tanks" which is just stupid.
Your reason is fundamentally flawed. Mech shouldn't be able to be as mobile and aggressive (overall) as bio is. That's not why it's not bio.
If bio and mech have the same capabilities then diversity and game depth is taken away. Mech is not bio in gundams. This is what Blizzard doesn't understand, and what the old BW dev team did.
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On September 07 2012 08:02 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I'm really surprised at how balanced most of the game that this version of the warhound got through.
It's actually not that amazingly good like people make it out to be. Even mass roaches beat them.
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On September 07 2012 08:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:56 FortMonty wrote:
My biggest issue with some of the things being said is the fact that people keep adding some type of satndard to "mech" play. Yes, the traditional meching style is to gain position and slowly gain ground on your opponent until you're sieging their base. However, I don't think this automatically requires mech to BE slow moving and chess like. I think the idea behind the Warhound is nice, to give mech some more versatility, the ability to be more mobile with stronger units and be hyper aggressive instead of super passive. Now people have said "You can be super aggressive with current mech, just aggressive leap frog tanks" which is just stupid.
Your reason is fundamentally flawed. Mech shouldn't be able to be as mobile and aggressive (overall) as bio is. That's not why it's not bio. If bio and mech have the same capabilities then diversity and game depth is taken away. Mech is not bio in gundams. This is what Blizzard doesn't understand, and what the old BW dev team did.
exactly. they should fucking remove bio (which essentially the warhound is doing) if they want to turn mech into bio with this gigantic marauder
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On September 07 2012 08:22 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 08:02 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I'm really surprised at how balanced most of the game that this version of the warhound got through. It's actually not that amazingly good like people make it out to be. Even mass roaches beat them.
I have to agree.. Protoss players are still trying to figure it out tough, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as some people say..
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EPT
