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On August 02 2017 21:09 sneirac wrote:
Ah delusional goat discussions make their long awaited return, it has been way too long.
A few questions remain now with the Neymar saga:
1. FFP and the release clause
2. the 25m loyalty bonus
3. will Barca manage replacement despite other clubs swaying no e.g. mbappe/coutinho
3. is the most interesting part of the entire transfer window, in my opinion. You'd have to think that Barca will spend lavishly to replace Neymar, but who is available? Everyone knows they want Verratti, but now they desperately need at least one forward.
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Neymar purchase will probably trigger a lot in transfers as whoever barca will buy from will also need a replacement etc.
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On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore.
All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself.
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On August 02 2017 22:39 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore. All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself.
Wtf?! How can you say that a group with Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru away game (really tough game) is easier than Andora, Faroe islands, Latvia, Swizerland and Hungary? . Even if we combined all the best players from Portugal's opponents we would not even have a team qualifying from CONMEBOL.
Outside of France, Portugal did not beat a single team which could qualify from CONMEBOL.
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On August 02 2017 22:36 sharkie wrote:
Neymar purchase will probably trigger a lot in transfers as whoever barca will buy from will also need a replacement etc.
Yeah exactly, Neymar will be the first domino.
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On August 02 2017 22:59 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 22:39 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore. All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself. Wtf?! How can you say that a group with Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru away game (really tough game) is easier than Andora, Faroe islands, Latvia, Swizerland and Hungary? . Even if we combined all the best players from Portugal's opponents we would not even have a team qualifying from CONMEBOL. Outside of France, Portugal did not beat a single team which could qualify from CONMEBOL.
When is last time a South American team (not Brazil) won an international title?
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On August 02 2017 23:02 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 22:36 sharkie wrote:
Neymar purchase will probably trigger a lot in transfers as whoever barca will buy from will also need a replacement etc. Yeah exactly, Neymar will be the first domino.
I wouldn't want to be in Barca's spot right now though. It doesn't feel like they were prepared to lose Neymar based on how they handled the whole issue. Panic buying players is going to make for very inflated transfers. I'm also not sure if any top players are available. They are definitely not getting Veratti, Coutinho has a lengthy contract, Mpabbe is going to Madrid, maybe Dembele of Dortmund?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Coutinho one i can see them getting if they throw enough money at the situation i think. Rumors were his agent had agreed terms with them, who knows on that one i guess.
Maybe Barca can play 3-5-2 now though and Messi alongside Suarez, stack the midfield with all that talent they have their anyway.
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On August 02 2017 23:11 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 22:59 nojok wrote:On August 02 2017 22:39 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore. All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself. Wtf?! How can you say that a group with Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru away game (really tough game) is easier than Andora, Faroe islands, Latvia, Swizerland and Hungary? . Even if we combined all the best players from Portugal's opponents we would not even have a team qualifying from CONMEBOL. Outside of France, Portugal did not beat a single team which could qualify from CONMEBOL. When is last time a South American team (not Brazil) won an international title?
Stop dodging the point, there is only the world cup every four year and the South American teams did just fine. 2006 2 semifinalists, 2010 1 semifinalist, 2014 2 semifinalists. You absolutely can't compare those teams to Poland, Wales, Hungary or Croatia... Brazil has not even reached the top4 of copa america for 10 years and yet Neymar is breaking goal scoring records, scored 4 goals at the world cup while Ronaldo is at 3 in 3 participations, kinda embarassing for one of the two best player of his era no?
It's 11 vs 11, one can be the difference maker more often than others but absolutely no player in history has single handedly carried a team to a trophy. Zidane receiving the trophy of best player in 98 was a joke, he was average and crumbling under pressure and scored two headers on corner kicks in the final. He was the king in 2000 and 2006, very good in 2004 but the team was bad. He's still the best French player ever but don't buy the overhype surrounding any star player, they're still one amongst eleven.
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On August 02 2017 23:28 Pandemona wrote:
Coutinho one i can see them getting if they throw enough money at the situation i think. Rumors were his agent had agreed terms with them, who knows on that one i guess.
Maybe Barca can play 3-5-2 now though and Messi alongside Suarez, stack the midfield with all that talent they have their anyway.
I don't think their midfielders are that strong compared to xavi iniesta era, cmiiw. Yes they're talented no doubt, but everything always MSN this, MSN that. The build up play from deep weren't that impressive. Probably why they're keen on Verrati.
Why did they sell Thiago I can never understand.
Other options are Dembele and Hazard for Neymar replacement, a bit similar style of play. And..to a lesser extent probably Dybala and Griezmann?
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And how much would Barcelona want to pay for someone like Dembele?
After
- having just received 222m
- a new standard for transfer fees being set
- being kinda desperate to get some replacement
- teams being able to ask for an additional premium, since it is super late in the preparation...
Want to pay 120m+ for Dembele? :D I think at this point Dortmund would consider it :D
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
On August 02 2017 23:44 brinepumps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:28 Pandemona wrote:
Coutinho one i can see them getting if they throw enough money at the situation i think. Rumors were his agent had agreed terms with them, who knows on that one i guess.
Maybe Barca can play 3-5-2 now though and Messi alongside Suarez, stack the midfield with all that talent they have their anyway. I don't think their midfielders are that strong compared to xavi iniesta era, cmiiw. Yes they're talented no doubt, but everything always MSN this, MSN that. The build up play from deep weren't that impressive. Probably why they're keen on Verrati. Why did they sell Thiago I can never understand. Other options are Dembele and Hazard for Neymar replacement, a bit similar style of play. And..to a lesser extent probably Dybala and Griezmann?
They have some talents though, Turan showed promise, and my personal favorite Andre Gomes i think i think is exceptionally talented. I mean they have alot of legs all of a sudden in midfeild if they can play Biscuits Iniesta plus Rakitic/Gomes
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On August 02 2017 23:59 mahrgell wrote:
And how much would Barcelona want to pay for someone like Dembele?
After
- having just received 222m
- a new standard for transfer fees being set
- being kinda desperate to get some replacement
- teams being able to ask for an additional premium, since it is super late in the preparation...
Want to pay 120m+ for Dembele? :D I think at this point Dortmund would consider it :D
Meh, let Dembélé alone, he's an unstable child and he's happy with Auba and Guerreiro as French mates with Zagadou on top. He's also hyped because Bosz can speak French. He needs to mature (and learn German but he probably did not even consider it -.-) and I'm happy to watch Dortmund with him. We need him on fire at the world cup.
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On August 02 2017 23:34 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:11 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 22:59 nojok wrote:On August 02 2017 22:39 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore. All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself. Wtf?! How can you say that a group with Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru away game (really tough game) is easier than Andora, Faroe islands, Latvia, Swizerland and Hungary? . Even if we combined all the best players from Portugal's opponents we would not even have a team qualifying from CONMEBOL. Outside of France, Portugal did not beat a single team which could qualify from CONMEBOL. When is last time a South American team (not Brazil) won an international title? Stop dodging the point, there is only the world cup every four year and the South American teams did just fine. 2006 2 semifinalists, 2010 1 semifinalist, 2014 2 semifinalists. You absolutely can't compare those teams to Poland, Wales, Hungary or Croatia... Brazil has not even reached the top4 of copa america for 10 years and yet Neymar is breaking goal scoring records, scored 4 goals at the world cup while Ronaldo is at 3 in 3 participations, kinda embarassing for one of the two best player of his era no? It's 11 vs 11, one can be the difference maker more often than others but absolutely no player in history has single handedly carried a team to a trophy. Zidane receiving the trophy of best player in 98 was a joke, he was average and crumbling under pressure and scored two headers on corner kicks in the final. He was the king in 2000 and 2006, very good in 2004 but the team was bad. He's still the best French player ever but don't buy the overhype surrounding any star player, they're still one amongst eleven.
That's why South American teams are inferior to European ones. They still believe that one man can hard carry to titles. As you said, football is a game of 11 vs 11.
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On August 03 2017 00:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 23:34 nojok wrote:On August 02 2017 23:11 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 22:59 nojok wrote:On August 02 2017 22:39 sharkie wrote:On August 02 2017 20:51 WillyWanker wrote:
Neymar already scored more than 30 goals in a season. Twice. Last year he scored less than usual. And even then, the team plays for Messi so you can't compare his stats to Ronaldo's. As for important goals... Did you watch the 6-1?
And don't make me laugh with the Euro and the qualifiers. Look at Brazil's opposition and look at Portugal's. At the Euro, they faced weak teams, got the luckiest side of the bracket thanks to other big teams failing, and they barrel made it. And he was nowhere near MVP.
I do think people are overestimating current Ronaldo. I think there are a few players better than him right now. Yes, he did play some amazing games last season, but you can count them on one hand. And like I said, the team plays for him so he'll be the one scoring the goals most of the time. Ronaldo from the last 3-4 games of CL vs Neymar, no match. Ronaldo from the full season? Not that much anymore. All tier 1 European teams are better than South Americans and many tier 2 European sides are as good as most South American sides. This is the age of European football. Brazil's opposition is not harder than Portugal's, don't kid yourself. Wtf?! How can you say that a group with Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Peru away game (really tough game) is easier than Andora, Faroe islands, Latvia, Swizerland and Hungary? . Even if we combined all the best players from Portugal's opponents we would not even have a team qualifying from CONMEBOL. Outside of France, Portugal did not beat a single team which could qualify from CONMEBOL. When is last time a South American team (not Brazil) won an international title? Stop dodging the point, there is only the world cup every four year and the South American teams did just fine. 2006 2 semifinalists, 2010 1 semifinalist, 2014 2 semifinalists. You absolutely can't compare those teams to Poland, Wales, Hungary or Croatia... Brazil has not even reached the top4 of copa america for 10 years and yet Neymar is breaking goal scoring records, scored 4 goals at the world cup while Ronaldo is at 3 in 3 participations, kinda embarassing for one of the two best player of his era no? It's 11 vs 11, one can be the difference maker more often than others but absolutely no player in history has single handedly carried a team to a trophy. Zidane receiving the trophy of best player in 98 was a joke, he was average and crumbling under pressure and scored two headers on corner kicks in the final. He was the king in 2000 and 2006, very good in 2004 but the team was bad. He's still the best French player ever but don't buy the overhype surrounding any star player, they're still one amongst eleven. That's why South American teams are inferior to European ones. They still believe that one man can hard carry to titles. As you said, football is a game of 11 vs 11.
The point was that you said it was harder to score against Andorra, Wales or Latvia compared to Argentina Chile and Columbia...
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Norway28906 Posts
if you look at H2H between european and south american teams the previous 3 world cups then in 2014 SA is best, in 2010 and 2006 europe is best. holds true even if you remove both argentina and brazil. Also andorra and latvia are obviously much worse than the south american teams, but poland and croatia aren't worse than uruguay, and wales is probably at least like, peru-equador-ish. then germany is better than all and spain italy france portugal belgium are evenly matched with the brazil argentina chile colombia quadruplet.
Basically overall the top teams of the two continents are pretty much equally matched, but europe has way more small and bad countries. This is bound to inflate the amount of goals scored. And while Ronaldo's 11 goals in 6 matches looks absurdly strong, it's a bit less impressive when you note that he has 4 vs andorra, 4 over 2 games vs latvia, 1 vs faroe island, 2 vs hungary, and 0 vs switzerland. Lewandowski actually looks way better - scoring all 3 goals in a 3-2 victory vs denmark, all 3 goals in a 3-0 victory vs romania, 2 of 3 goals in another 3-0 win vs romania, and 1 in each of the matches against khazakstan, armenia and montenegro.  Anyway, Europe has teams like san marino that concede 5 goals per game, venezuela was the worst in SA, at 2.4.
I mean I'm still firmly in the boat that Ronaldo is a current top 2 player, and I think Suarez is better than Neymar, but I don't think you can conclude any of this based on nation team performance. Single leg knockout tournaments have far too much luck involved to place that much stock on the result, and while Ronaldo was clearly instrumental in Portugal's EC victory, he would have been equally as instrumental had they lost the final. Goals scored for national team is also a poor metric because the opposing sides vary so much in quality. Besides, Neymar's Brazil WC performance was amazing until he got injured - hard to see him stopping Germany though.
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On August 02 2017 23:28 Pandemona wrote:
Coutinho one i can see them getting if they throw enough money at the situation i think. Rumors were his agent had agreed terms with them, who knows on that one i guess.
Maybe Barca can play 3-5-2 now though and Messi alongside Suarez, stack the midfield with all that talent they have their anyway.
That 3-5-2 or something similar was my initial though. The whole MSN trio is a double edged sword as it takes such a big chunk out of the wage budget and makes their attacking lineup pretty damn predictable in general. Most of the time they've obviously been devastating, but the games vs PSG and Juve hinted that maybe they'll need alternative approaches too.
Being compensated 222 million euros and freeing up Neymar's wages from the budget seems like a nice opportunity to look for something more flexible if they feel like doing so.
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On August 03 2017 01:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:if you look at H2H between european and south american teams the previous 3 world cups then in 2014 SA is best, in 2010 and 2006 europe is best. holds true even if you remove both argentina and brazil. Also andorra and latvia are obviously much worse than the south american teams, but poland and croatia aren't worse than uruguay, and wales is probably at least like, peru-equador-ish. then germany is better than all and spain italy france portugal belgium are evenly matched with the brazil argentina chile colombia quadruplet. Basically overall the top teams of the two continents are pretty much equally matched, but europe has way more small and bad countries. This is bound to inflate the amount of goals scored. And while Ronaldo's 11 goals in 6 matches looks absurdly strong, it's a bit less impressive when you note that he has 4 vs andorra, 4 over 2 games vs latvia, 1 vs faroe island, 2 vs hungary, and 0 vs switzerland. Lewandowski actually looks way better - scoring all 3 goals in a 3-2 victory vs denmark, all 3 goals in a 3-0 victory vs romania, 2 of 3 goals in another 3-0 win vs romania, and 1 in each of the matches against khazakstan, armenia and montenegro. Anyway, Europe has teams like san marino that concede 5 goals per game, venezuela was the worst in SA, at 2.4. I mean I'm still firmly in the boat that Ronaldo is a current top 2 player, and I think Suarez is better than Neymar, but I don't think you can conclude any of this based on nation team performance. Single leg knockout tournaments have far too much luck involved to place that much stock on the result, and while Ronaldo was clearly instrumental in Portugal's EC victory, he would have been equally as instrumental had they lost the final. Goals scored for national team is also a poor metric because the opposing sides vary so much in quality. Besides, Neymar's Brazil WC performance was amazing until he got injured - hard to see him stopping Germany though.
My point is that those players are not as good as papers say and that they don't carry their respective teams and international football shows just that. They're only slightly better than Neymar, Hazard or whoever you want, not god walking on Earth. They're also lucky to star at the period of time when the football elite freezed and the top players are concentrated in the smallest number of teams ever.
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222mil for Neymar backed with Qatar money is ridiculous.
Holy hell..
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EPT
