Then I recently came across this video on youtube:
He recommends always doing 20 reps instead of 10 for each set, but the sticky recommended low reps. The reasons mentioned in the sticky made sense, but this guy is huge and a professional bodybuilder. If high reps got him to where he is, it can't be that bad, right?
The reps mentioned in the sticky (specifically starting strength which is sets of 5) will give you a good mixture of strength, mass, and size which will build the foundation for you to switch to a body building specific workout in the higher rep ranges in the future
Lets get something out of the way before addressing your question - if you're doing sets of 10, you're not doing starting strength.
Professional bodybuilders are taking steroids. Yes, all of them. There's a certain point that the body just can't get past without a little bit of pharmacological "help" - and these guys are miles beyond that point. As such, their bodies respond differently to training than yours does. Hell, even if it weren't for this difference, they've been lifting for decades and you've been lifting for two months. If you read the stickies, you should understand that again, you are not the same. The things that apply to pro body builders don't apply to you.
Now, is this to say you should never do sets of 20 reps? No. Is this to say that sets of 20 (or 10) are bad? No. It just means that as a beginner, there's a better way for you to go about things than what Kai Greene is recommending.
Being of follower of SS myself I can tell you that doing sets of 5 is generally much safer and easier to work with as you learn more and more about yourself. Everyone is a bit different. Sometimes you want to add an extra workout to your routine to spice things up, doing things in low reps is a good and easy way to gauge how much you can handle and overtime you will have a good idea about whether or not your extra reps may be doing more harm than good for you.
Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
Get a weightlifting routine made by a professional trainer and stick with it for two months. Don't do a certain exercise/rep range/use some supplement just because some bodybuilder said so.
On November 30 2012 19:43 GolemMadness wrote: Get a weightlifting routine made by a professional trainer and stick with it for two months. Don't do a certain exercise/rep range/use some supplement just because some bodybuilder said so.
Wouldn't recommend this, most trainers at gyms are pretty ignorant and sometimes outright counter productive
anything will work as a beginner, but learning the big compounds by doing Starting Str or similar is your best bet. switch to hypertrophy/whatever else you want after a year or three
On November 30 2012 12:57 Gwaltgw wrote: Thanks for taking a break from IPL5 long enough to answer my question. I guess I won't go up to 20 reps.
Go to 20 reps, it's good. But do it mostly for your late assistance work. My strength training looks a lot like this;
Main exercise: speed work or heavy / max effort
First assistance movement; 12 to 20 reps total (sets of 3-6) **Barbell work**
-The first assistance is a movement reminiscent to the main movement, but it focus on a weakness or is a variation (could be stiff leg deadlift, close grip bench press, etc)
Second and third assistance movements: 60 to 100 reps (sets of 15 to 30) *umbbell or cable pulley work mostly**
-Those movements are more bodybuilding types of movements and focus on one or smaller body parts, and the objective is local strength and hypertrophy of weak links. Do super sets and get as much work done in the least amount of time possible.
Louie Simmons mentions that 60 reps seems to be the magic number for the the small assistance exercises, but you can had even more volume for an increased hypertrophy stimulus.
Like today, after my snatch practice and CGBP heavy work, I finished with 3 sets of 20 reps of wide grip T bar rows and face pulls in super sets. It was 120 reps of upper back in 10-15 mins.
On November 30 2012 17:20 Crushinator wrote: Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
So basically what you're saying is that you can find a program or make one that puts on more muscle than Starting Strength on a beginner done correctly.
If you wanting bigger muscles do 3 sets of 8 with heavy weight, and when I mean heavy weight enough where you don't lose form, form is everything. Keep with Kai. You want to control the downward motion on all reps, and do it slow.
On November 30 2012 19:43 GolemMadness wrote: Get a weightlifting routine made by a professional trainer and stick with it for two months. Don't do a certain exercise/rep range/use some supplement just because some bodybuilder said so.
Wouldn't recommend this, most trainers at gyms are pretty ignorant and sometimes outright counter productive
On November 30 2012 19:43 GolemMadness wrote: Get a weightlifting routine made by a professional trainer and stick with it for two months. Don't do a certain exercise/rep range/use some supplement just because some bodybuilder said so.
Wouldn't recommend this, most trainers at gyms are pretty ignorant and sometimes outright counter productive
I meant a reputable trainer.
But I don't think most beginners are gunna wanna throw down mad cash $$$, espeically for something is infinite amount of knowledge on for free online. It's just being able to distinguish what is good and what is bad, and than what works for the individual. Except everything works for beginners haha.
On November 30 2012 17:20 Crushinator wrote: Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
So basically what you're saying is that you can find a program or make one that puts on more muscle than Starting Strength on a beginner done correctly.
Please share your knowledge with us.
Yes, starting strength is not designed to be a bodybuilding program. Rippetoe is not a bodybuilder. It is an excellent general strength trianing program, and maybe lots of people will gain a satisfactory amount of mass on it. But, I think think anyone with decent knowledge about weight training can create a program that is better for gaining mass. There is too little volume on Starting Strength to cause optimal hypertrophy, there is nothing controversial about that statement.
I even mention one of these programs, namely a program created by JasonDB of bodybuilding.com. Even the program titled A Simple Beginner's Routine, should be superior for mass. Starting Strength will probably get you stronger more quickly though.
After 4 years of training around a fair number of amateur BB competitors and PL'ers in addition to total gym noobs, I can say with total certainty that most of these "beginner" focused programs are pretty much crap, or at the very least are missing something crucial; relative subjective volume assessment. We can all pretend that some dude with an online lifting reputation can come up with a magical routine that fits all, but what's the point in that? For example, OP seems confused as to what rep range is suitable. The answer, unfortunately, is that practically all rep ranges are reasonable, given certain goals, and the implementation of different rep ranges is an important part of crafting a successful routine that will continue to provide in and out of gym motivation.
To a beginner, all this advice takes on a slightly different form; don't worry about it! Try out some 10 rep bench sets, then try some 4-6, then maybe a 15 to finish that specific lift. Sure, the standard "less reps=more strength, higher reps=mass" rule rings more or less true, but everyone responds to stimuli differently, and the rep range "sweet spot" where you both see good results and continue to have the motivation to hit the gym is going to be different for every person. Accordingly, you won't ever figure out where your body lies along the spectrum until you play around with rep ranges, grips, rest times, and the like. Noobie gains are so amazing once you get over that first hump that it won't really matter what you do, as long as you do it well. I'd put up my routine to give you an example of how "all over the place" I am in terms of rep ranges, but that is definitely TLDR material
On November 30 2012 17:20 Crushinator wrote: Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
Nobody has claimed that starting strength targets optimal hypertrophy gains, however as a novice it will provide optimal strength and mass gains providing him the work capacity and foundation to take full advantage of a bodybuilding program.
So basically what you're saying is that you can find a program or make one that puts on more muscle than Starting Strength on a beginner done correctly.
Please share your knowledge with us.
Yes, starting strength is not designed to be a bodybuilding program. Rippetoe is not a bodybuilder. It is an excellent general strength trianing program, and maybe lots of people will gain a satisfactory amount of mass on it. But, I think think anyone with decent knowledge about weight training can create a program that is better for gaining mass. There is too little volume on Starting Strength to cause optimal hypertrophy, there is nothing controversial about that statement.
I even mention one of these programs, namely a program created by JasonDB of bodybuilding.com. Even the program titled A Simple Beginner's Routine, should be superior for mass. Starting Strength will probably get you stronger more quickly though.
On November 30 2012 19:43 GolemMadness wrote: Get a weightlifting routine made by a professional trainer and stick with it for two months. Don't do a certain exercise/rep range/use some supplement just because some bodybuilder said so.
Wouldn't recommend this, most trainers at gyms are pretty ignorant and sometimes outright counter productive
I meant a reputable trainer.
But I don't think most beginners are gunna wanna throw down mad cash $$$, espeically for something is infinite amount of knowledge on for free online. It's just being able to distinguish what is good and what is bad, and than what works for the individual. Except everything works for beginners haha.
I'm not saying to hire a trainer. Just get one online that is made by a reputable trainer.
On November 30 2012 17:20 Crushinator wrote: Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
So basically what you're saying is that you can find a program or make one that puts on more muscle than Starting Strength on a beginner done correctly.
Please share your knowledge with us.
Yes, starting strength is not designed to be a bodybuilding program. Rippetoe is not a bodybuilder. It is an excellent general strength trianing program, and maybe lots of people will gain a satisfactory amount of mass on it. But, I think think anyone with decent knowledge about weight training can create a program that is better for gaining mass. There is too little volume on Starting Strength to cause optimal hypertrophy, there is nothing controversial about that statement.
I even mention one of these programs, namely a program created by JasonDB of bodybuilding.com. Even the program titled A Simple Beginner's Routine, should be superior for mass. Starting Strength will probably get you stronger more quickly though.
This program looks hardcore, I think I would pass out at the end of them haha
On November 30 2012 17:20 Crushinator wrote: Starting strength is a strength training program and not optimal for hypertrophy. 3x5 reps is too little for that. 5x5 is a bit better for muscle growth while still making good strength gains. I would either do 5x5 or work in the 8-12 rep range, doing sets of 20 is not recommended for beginners though, if you dont have a very specific goal. If your primary goal is growth, i would get on some kind of beginner bodybuilding program (bodybuilding.com has a novice 5x5 you might like).
Note: That said, the most important thing for a beginner is to simply stick with a program, don't overthink it too much. You should make good gains on Starting Strength, but the reality is that for growth, there are more effective programs. The PHAT program you linked is not recommended for beginners IMO, better to do a full body workout routine. Also, messing up Starting Strength by doing 10 reps, is not a good idea. Find a REAL program for beginners, that suits your goals, and do it as written.
So basically what you're saying is that you can find a program or make one that puts on more muscle than Starting Strength on a beginner done correctly.
Please share your knowledge with us.
Yes, starting strength is not designed to be a bodybuilding program. Rippetoe is not a bodybuilder. It is an excellent general strength trianing program, and maybe lots of people will gain a satisfactory amount of mass on it. But, I think think anyone with decent knowledge about weight training can create a program that is better for gaining mass. There is too little volume on Starting Strength to cause optimal hypertrophy, there is nothing controversial about that statement.
I even mention one of these programs, namely a program created by JasonDB of bodybuilding.com. Even the program titled A Simple Beginner's Routine, should be superior for mass. Starting Strength will probably get you stronger more quickly though.
This program looks hardcore, I think I would pass out at the end of them haha
That program is on the high end of volume but imo its still pretty reasonable, even for a beginner. Takes my brother about 1 hour 20 mins to complete. If you have stamina issues you can cut out a set from each of the isolation movements, but tbh it shouldn't be a problem, especially after you get used to the workload.
Just start out with 4-6 reps it's solid for a beginner.
You are probably gonna want to stick to that with the big compound lifts (unless you do 1RM) and the extra reps often favored on the isolation exercises will in all likelihood work themselves in when you get a feel for it and get a better understanding of what you're doing to your body.
Never follow any rules or set programs, these are guidelines and if you follow them you are a sheep. If you want optimal gains, experiment for 3-4 months on 2-3 different routines and see which ones give you most gains, and which ones you like.
For example, I started recently, I did a push/pull hypertrophy thing in august/sep, then SS in oct, and some of nov. Now I've been on a mix, sorta like PHAT. I made almost no progress in anything doing the hypertrophy one, SS I made tiny gains(3-4 lbs a week) that were not noticeable. Now I've been doing my own version of PHAT, after my leg hypertrophy day(because I can push myself and use the muscle more using a lower weight), my squat weight goes up ~7-8lbs after each cycle(or split, its about a 9 day total split). Keep in mind I'm cutting. Try squatting 65% of your 1 RM 25 times for 3 sets and tell me your squat weight doesn't go up next week.
TLDR -experiment and find what works for you -use proper form that allows for maximum muscle stimulation -eat good -gainz
Edit: About Kai, he has his own routine designed for trying to win Mr.Olympia, are you 280lbs sub 10% BF competing for mr.olympia while taking 8000mg of test a week? If you are, then you can use his workout routine, if not why are you doing it? Don't do something without thinking about it, think for yourself, don't like others think for you.
EPT
umbbell or cable pulley work mostly**
