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On March 14 2013 22:09 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
Look at the teams like Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund .... a lot of their players are homegrown players who identify with their city and their team and are willing to stay their whole career. These teams rise up their own talents and some of them make it into the first team where they are motivated on a completely different level than mercenaries who switch their team every 2 years anyways.
On a sidenote, the English national team is also suffering a lot from their teams preferring exepensive players from abroad over own talents.
It's not like Bayern don't splash the cash and buy up as much of the German talent as they can. And Barcelona can hardly say many of their players are home grown when in reality what that means is taking the players AWAY from their homes at a young age to come and live and train in Barcelona because they have retarded amounts of resources and an epic youth system. Messi is the best case in point- he's about as home grown as a Supermarket takeaway curry is authentic Indian. Athletic Bilbao maybe are what you are getting at, but not barca and bayern imo.
And Dortmund have been incredible, I agree that I am amazed by their success and very pleased for it. And I also think they are the most 'legit' team in the world right now. However that's just a lucky youth crop. They happen everywhere. The Man U one from the late nineties is a classic example. Sometimes regions get a glut of quality. It's Dortmund's time this time.
I agree that the English national team is suffering but look we also just have a fairly untalented crop of players in reality. Our teams in 1998, 2002, 2006 should have done better. Fact. On paper we were just better than we performed. We had our chance to shine. We failed. We have to wait for some new talents to arise. And remember the EPL still requires 8 home grown players (or UK trained for 3 years) for squad registration so it's not like talented English people won't get the chance in the premier league.
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On March 14 2013 22:48 warding wrote:
I don't understand this bias against money in football.
People enjoy watching the best players, and they enjoy following epic rivalries. It's only possible to have the best players when you have a lot of money. Hence, the ideal scenario for football as a sport is to have a lot of money concentrated in one or two leagues, ie. La Liga and the Premiership. And still, I think it's a major waste of talent to have Messi and Ronaldo play against crappy spanish teams in over 50% of their games.
No one watches the french or german leagues outside of the respective countries because there's not enough money in those leagues, too many crappy teams, and they're too competitive. Yes, competition is bad. Fans like to follow winners, and they can't be changing teams every other year. Having around 4 clubs that can compete for the title every year is probably the best scenario. Having just one is a borefest. Having 8-10 different teams competing to win the championship every year is a mess.
i think you can understand it, just try a bit harder.
hibbert #1.
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On March 14 2013 23:03 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 22:09 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
Look at the teams like Barcelona, Bayern, Dortmund .... a lot of their players are homegrown players who identify with their city and their team and are willing to stay their whole career. These teams rise up their own talents and some of them make it into the first team where they are motivated on a completely different level than mercenaries who switch their team every 2 years anyways.
On a sidenote, the English national team is also suffering a lot from their teams preferring exepensive players from abroad over own talents. It's not like Bayern don't splash the cash and buy up as much of the German talent as they can. And Barcelona can hardly say many of their players are home grown when in reality what that means is taking the players AWAY from their homes at a young age to come and live and train in Barcelona because they have retarded amounts of resources and an epic youth system. Messi is the best case in point- he's about as home grown as a Supermarket takeaway curry is authentic Indian. Athletic Bilbao maybe are what you are getting at, but not barca and bayern imo. And Dortmund have been incredible, I agree that I am amazed by their success and very pleased for it. And I also think they are the most 'legit' team in the world right now. However that's just a lucky youth crop. They happen everywhere. The Man U one from the late nineties is a classic example. Sometimes regions get a glut of quality. It's Dortmund's time this time. I agree that the English national team is suffering but look we also just have a fairly untalented crop of players in reality. Our teams in 1998, 2002, 2006 should have done better. Fact. On paper we were just better than we performed. We had our chance to shine. We failed. We have to wait for some new talents to arise. And remember the EPL still requires 8 home grown players (or UK trained for 3 years) for squad registration so it's not like talented English people won't get the chance in the premier league.
As Rebs said, at least try to hide your hate somewhat.
If changing continent and country to live and breathe football from the age of 12(in messi's situation) doesn't count as homegrown then dunno what does.
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Fans follow winners?  I wish that was true haha, I wouldn't have had to suffer these last 10 years.
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Hardcore fans follow local teams and suffer with them wherever they go. The fact is, these are the minority. The majority are what hardcore fans call the "glory hunters".
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On March 14 2013 22:48 warding wrote:
I don't understand this bias against money in football.
People enjoy watching the best players, and they enjoy following epic rivalries. It's only possible to have the best players when you have a lot of money. Hence, the ideal scenario for football as a sport is to have a lot of money concentrated in one or two leagues, ie. La Liga and the Premiership. And still, I think it's a major waste of talent to have Messi and Ronaldo play against crappy spanish teams in over 50% of their games.
No one watches the french or german leagues outside of the respective countries because there's not enough money in those leagues, too many crappy teams, and they're too competitive. Yes, competition is bad. Fans like to follow winners, and they can't be changing teams every other year. Having around 4 clubs that can compete for the title every year is probably the best scenario. Having just one is a borefest. Having 8-10 different teams competing to win the championship every year is a mess.
worst football post i have read in a long long time. most important point first: no, its bandwagoners who like to follow winners; not true fans.
then, interest in the german league, for example, has increased tremendously during the last couple of years. and the number 5-9 teams of bundesliga are certainly not worse than the number 5-9 teams of la liga. epl is an exception because even their smaller teams can throw around sick amounts of money.
then again, how can a league be too competitive? is a league like the spanish one really more interesting where real and barca share 19 out of 20 championships and in most years, the whole season comes down to maybe 3-6 key games while the rest of their league matches are rapes or snoozefests?
and no, even in germany and france, there is only a handful of teams that can compete for the title in a normal season. its just that the number of potential candidates is higher than 2 or 3... one such freak season in the bundesliga was the 08/09 season in which wolfsburg became champions. by doing so, they were the first team since 39 years (!) that won it's first championship. in other words: prior to that, the german champion had been one of the "establishment clubs" for 39 consecutive years.
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I said myself that bandwagoners follow winners. Not sure what you're arguing here. I don't see what's wrong with a bandwagoner. Football is a show. Most people follow football rather than, say, curling, because it's more "beautiful". Winning teams play the more beautiful football, therefore, more people follow winning teams. I don't see what's wrong with preferring to watch more beautiful football over preferring to watch local football.
I don't get the rest of your argument. Aren't the English and Spanish leagues more watched around the world by a long margin than the German or French leagues? If it's not due to the fact that these have more money and thus better players, and greater rivalries, then what explains it?
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On March 15 2013 00:20 warding wrote:
I said myself that bandwagoners follow winners. Not sure what you're arguing here. I don't see what's wrong with a bandwagoner. Football is a show. Most people follow football rather than, say, curling, because it's more "beautiful". Winning teams play the more beautiful football, therefore, more people follow winning teams. I don't see what's wrong with preferring to watch more beautiful football over preferring to watch local football.
many people follow football because it is a sport they enjoy to watch and to play themselves. and winning teams dont always play the more beautiful football. for example chelsea last season. 
I don't get the rest of your argument. Aren't the English and Spanish leagues more watched around the world by a long margin than the German or French leagues? If it's not due to the fact that these have more money and thus better players, and greater rivalries, then what explains it?
they have more money and thus more superstars. this explains it. greater rivalries? i tend to disagree but ok..
one thing to note: currently they have more viewers, but the viewer count always lags behind success on the pitch. in the early and mid 2000s, german football went through a down, but now it is on the rise. this will be reflected by significantly increasing viewer numbes in a few years.
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Well, Chelsea last year was still better than Peterborough United. OK, winning teams are not always the most beautiful, but more often than not, they are. Why do so many people in Portugal follow Benfica, or Barcelona and Real Madrid in Spain, or Bayern Munich in Germany? Because they've won a lot in history, and maybe because it's more satisfying to be part of a larger community than a smaller community.
My main point is that concentrations of money in football in specific leagues is a good thing, because it allows for a concentration of the best players in the world in those leagues and for more epic rivalries.
Bayern vs Dortmund is a rivalry that is great now, but hasn't been historically consistent. Barcelona vs Real Madrid matches are among the most watched matches in the world. The Portuguese league is only watchable because of Benfica vs Porto vs Sporting. Rivalries in sports create story lines that keep fans enticed.
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also some guys over the world watch it ... who cares they not watch the ENGLISH league they not watch the SPANISH league, they watch manu barca real ... fact is taht the german soccerleague is the 2nd most in visitors in the stadium behind the NFL (this american handegg game no one in europe cares about) and then comes after that the other american leagues like icehockey baseball basketball by a large margin, very late come the english spain etc league because they have like the half of the germans have in the stadiums.
so the world watch some teams yes but not t he league, so yes money buys good player and then ? barca wins every game expect vs real 5-0 OR its a disapointment ... wtf no wonder no one cares about the whole league they have tables of "BEST OF THE REST" where all teams/shooters/etc from teams expect real/barca are listet ,,, thats why money buying teams sucks!
ps: they also have no money man they have 500mio debts no one cares in germany you go back to league 6 if you do this its just not possible there ^_^
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You guys realize that by saying that most of the Spanish league sucks actually supports my argument? Most of the Spanish league sucks because not enough rich guys have bought teams there -> there is not enough money in the smaller teams. The Premiership is better precisely because more teams have more money.
I also agree that the German league is fun to watch... for Germans. Just not so much for the rest of the world compared with the Premiership or La Liga.
EDIT: The relevance of clubs not having debts to the watchability of a football league = 0.
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The german game has more fans per stadium in the top division but when you factor in the fact that we have 4 leagues where support is big the UK completely outperforms Germany. Also, the population of Germany is larger by 18mill.
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I think the average attendees of spectators in the bundesliga is 40k + or something which is like the highest in europe. fans there are what you really call fans, you will especially find out when you've been to germany or just driven through lol. i can't count the times i've driven through germany on the autobahn and not stopped at a gas station seeing BvB fans with yellow banners and scarf hanging out the windows
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On March 15 2013 00:41 warding wrote:
You guys realize that by saying that most of the Spanish league sucks actually supports my argument? Most of the Spanish league sucks because not enough rich guys have bought teams there -> there is not enough money in the smaller teams. The Premiership is better precisely because more teams have more money.
I also agree that the German league is fun to watch... for Germans. Just not so much for the rest of the world compared with the Premiership or La Liga.
EDIT: The relevance of clubs not having debts to the watchability of a football league = 0.
German league is a lot more fun to watch than the Spanish one, and to be honest, a lot better (the two might be related). Sure, Spain has two inflated super teams, but this does only so much for the quality of the league as a whole. Especially when looking at viewing pleasure, this league has barely anything to offer - barely a couple of teams play interesting, offensive football and I'd say none come anywhere close to the dedication and power of German teams. Hell, I'd almost rather watch the Italian league than the Spanish one.
You also completely fail to understand the role of money in football. "There is not enough money in the smaller teams"... I think just about every true football fan will rather watch a bunch of local youngsters that managed to be forged into a true team perform well than seeing Chelsea/Man. City/Real/...
Besides, as briefly pointed out before, football is so much more than money or the individual quality of players or even the general quality of the teams. I actually enjoy watching the Dutch league, not only because I'm Dutch, but mainly because of its super offensive playstyle. Sure, the defensive mistake frequently made sometimes make me slap myself. But the game as a whole is a lot more fun to watch. Similar reasons cause me enjoying the English and German leagues a lot more than the Spanish one (to be honest, I mostly have a hard time watching all league matches there as they just bore me to death).
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On March 15 2013 01:07 Passion wrote:
I think just about every true football fan will rather watch a bunch of local youngsters that managed to be forged into a true team perform well than seeing Chelsea/Man. City/Real/...
No freaking way...god are you kidding me? Only people who are addicted to jingoism and tribalism care THAT much that football teams are made entirely from local players. All I EVER want to see in football is quality football. I don't give a shit about the locale or nationality of any of the players.
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I'm not arguing about "true football fans". I don't really care about these snobbish considerations. When judging foreign leagues, I care about quality of play and the beauty of the sport. Take an average human being, and he would rather watch Manchester City vs Chelsea than Yeovil Town vs Bristol Rovers. The more money there is in a league, the better the players that league will have. The better players and managers a league has, and the more enticing the rivalries that exist in that league, the more likely I am to watch it.
And sincerely, cut the crap on this fantasy about the quality of the German league. Benfica played Leverkusen and frankly, they simply suck. They're far worse than Atletico Madrid, Malaga or Valencia.
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On March 15 2013 01:27 warding wrote:
I'm not arguing about "true football fans". I don't really care about these snobbish considerations. When judging foreign leagues, I care about quality of play and the beauty of the sport. Take an average human being, and he would rather watch Manchester City vs Chelsea than Yeovil Town vs Bristol Rovers. The more money there is in a league, the better the players that league will have. The better players and managers a league has, and the more enticing the rivalries that exist in that league, the more likely I am to watch it.
And sincerely, cut the crap on this fantasy about the quality of the German league. Benfica played Leverkusen and frankly, they simply suck. They're far worse than Atletico Madrid, Malaga or Valencia.
Right on instantly assuming "true football fan" is something snobbish. There are people who just enjoy the show, and there's people who enjoy the game. Obviously quality of the players/teams matters, but it's not all there is. Quality of teams surely has no impact on how enticing rivalries are - I'd actually say rivalries are characterised by being interesting with complete disregard of quality.
Basing your opinion of the German league on one series Leverkusen also sounds like a solid analysis. If it does matter to you, I think just every German-Spanish encounter this season has been won by the German team.
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I agree that quality of the teams does not have an impact on how enticing rivalries are, which is why I stated these two factors separately. Rivalry depends, imo, on two teams having similar quality consistently over a period of time.
I don't intend to be an expert of the German league, I'm just stating that the team placed 3rd in that league is much worse than the 3rd-to-5th teams in the Spanish league, which is already plenty more evidence than what you presented for the opposite case.
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By the way can anyone from Germany explain why the hell there is no beast team from Berlin, a city with 3m residents? Dortmund having a tiny population of 500k and Munich 1.3m. What's the deal people?
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On March 15 2013 00:01 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 22:48 warding wrote:
I don't understand this bias against money in football.
People enjoy watching the best players, and they enjoy following epic rivalries. It's only possible to have the best players when you have a lot of money. Hence, the ideal scenario for football as a sport is to have a lot of money concentrated in one or two leagues, ie. La Liga and the Premiership. And still, I think it's a major waste of talent to have Messi and Ronaldo play against crappy spanish teams in over 50% of their games.
No one watches the french or german leagues outside of the respective countries because there's not enough money in those leagues, too many crappy teams, and they're too competitive. Yes, competition is bad. Fans like to follow winners, and they can't be changing teams every other year. Having around 4 clubs that can compete for the title every year is probably the best scenario. Having just one is a borefest. Having 8-10 different teams competing to win the championship every year is a mess. worst football post i have read in a long long time. most important point first: no, its bandwagoners who like to follow winners; not true fans. then, interest in the german league, for example, has increased tremendously during the last couple of years. and the number 5-9 teams of bundesliga are certainly not worse than the number 5-9 teams of la liga. epl is an exception because even their smaller teams can throw around sick amounts of money. then again, how can a league be too competitive? is a league like the spanish one really more interesting where real and barca share 19 out of 20 championships and in most years, the whole season comes down to maybe 3-6 key games while the rest of their league matches are rapes or snoozefests? and no, even in germany and france, there is only a handful of teams that can compete for the title in a normal season. its just that the number of potential candidates is higher than 2 or 3... one such freak season in the bundesliga was the 08/09 season in which wolfsburg became champions. by doing so, they were the first team since 39 years (!) that won it's first championship. in other words: prior to that, the german champion had been one of the "establishment clubs" for 39 consecutive years.
define a "real fan" that is literally the dumbest thing I've heard
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EPT
