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Good gracious.. has to be the biggest bop in the semis of a GSL in a long, long time.
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On July 20 2021 04:05 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 00:06 Husyelt wrote:On July 19 2021 20:45 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Proxy shield battery builds are the dumbest shit.
Like obviously Trap is heavily favoured, but that build still needs to die. Would nerfing shield batteries proxy really affect any of the matchups? If you warp in a battery away from a nexus it starts with zero energy or something. Watching this series was painful. The mobility of Protoss in the early and mid game of a PvT is ridiculous. Stalkers / voids / warp Prysms allow an easy retreat in almost every situation. And if not, recall. Any change which nerfes proxy shield battery nerfes shield battery or is counter intuitive. That's the issue. Now you have 2 warp modes, now you would have 2 shield batteries? If Protoss would have been balanced by some ideas people would need an encyklopedia to play them and get around all the exceptions. Also think about a defensive shield battery outside of a nexus - e.g. near to a ramp against a cheese. You are nerfing a defensive shield battery suddenly. It is actually impossible to balance this shit because you would need to redesign Protoss. The whole issue is that Protoss has to warp in units, because Protoss has to warp in units these units have to be weak as they go against the defender advantage. Because these units are weak you need a help to defend in the early game. And that's the whole issue. For example by pushing the warp in technology to mid game you can have stronger Gateway units, with stronger units you suddenly don't need the shield battery. But this requires the big post Blizzcon patch and considering Blizzard never tried to play with the warp technology I doubt they will now.
At this point I honestly wonder how much battery overcharge is needed. If removing that ability really makes Protoss early game too fragile, some subtle things around zealots could be tried, like a health buff but charge isn't autocast anymore. I think this change would be good anyway, zealots warp ins involve too little micro and microing them isn't even that rewarding in a lot of cases. You could then even consider reintroducing the damage buff of charge (damage on impact), maybe you end up with cool interactions if you allow charge to be cast "a-move way" (you press c and the chargelot charges the first target it can access) or to target something specific (c + click on target) ; for instance 4 zealots charge into that tank and 4 others on the other one to optimize a tank push defense. Protoss badly need to be a tad less "easy" at the highest level (I mean balance is probably okish in that state of the game but high GM ladder sessions being 70% vP isn't acceptable) anyway.
By the way couldn't ESL take over balance as well as maps ? As I said the state of the game isn't deplorable but I wouldn't be too happy if what we have is really to be the definitive version of SC2 forever and ever.
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United States33432 Posts
Haven't done the full dive on all 20-ish 4-0 sweeps in GSL history, but I'm fairly certain Trap's 26:17 of total in-game time is the fastest time ever recorded.
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United States33432 Posts
On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals  On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea.
I think the stuff about Trap not being "flashy" was a pretty questionable take. Maybe it seems that way if you only see him in cross-server competition, but I'd say recently, his most notable trait in GSL/low-ping environments is going for high-risk, low-return micro plays and somehow making them work all the time. Anyway I wish I could page GGemini on TL.net 
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On July 20 2021 05:10 angry_maia wrote:
@Garbo Sorry it feels like some people are ridiculing you. Starcraft is inherently super hard to predict, so getting a bo7 wrong is not proof that your arguments were bad.
That being said, I'm curious: how do you rate Trap's PvT overall (boringness aside). This year, he seems to have done really well at it. Aside from dropping the occasional 0-2 to Maru or Cure or his 1-2 against HeroMarine, I think he's basically won every series he's been in.
For what it's worth, I actually thought Bunny had a real shot at beating trap (despite getting 3-0'd in super tournament). Bunny's macro play looked super strong in that series. Unfortunately, his early game was just too sloppy today.
I guess Trap's PvT is really good? I'll be honest, I didn't take this into consideration at all because I just think PvT heavily favours the Protoss regardless of who is playing. It just seemed to me like Bunny had all the answers for anyone he faced this season. DRG was supposed to be the Terran killer and Bunny demolished him. That probably skewed my opinion in favour of Bunny more than it should have, the TL analysis of how DRG's playstle having been figured out, seems pretty well explained.
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From my personal view, Trap PvT game is aligning more into Parting side with crazy micro and strong timing push. His build is varying enough to throw his opponent into confusion and he can always make adjustment at anytime to improve his chance, like adding that Sentry to block the ramp after realizing Bunny has no Tank and Medivac. Another thing is Trap has great macro and he can transition smoothly from any build order into strong mid and late game Toss army. If you let him get ahead in early game and deal worker damage, you are pretty much dead because that will snowball into a massive Toss army flushing the 3rd base.
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On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea.
Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar.
More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros.
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On July 20 2021 11:49 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea. Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar. More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros.
Yeah, while Trap has had some notable flops, he's at worst average on consistency: Maru, Rogue, Cure, arguably Parting, Zest, and Dark are all less consistent. He's probably as consistent than the big three Europeans at this point, honestly.
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Hmm, so I don't really understand claims about PvT being imba at a pro level. I can totally understand claims like "P is easier to play" or "T has to deal with a ton of bullshit like proxy void," but at the end of the day balance is a statistical argument and aigulac pretty definitively shows that the match-up is far from imbalanced (hovering close to 50.9% in map score, and the top 10 on aigulac is actually much more terran heavy than toss).
Balance whining is fine if its just lolz, but done seriously it really minimizes the efforts that pros like Trap put in. He's had some really devastating losses and has really worked for what he's accomplished this year.
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On July 20 2021 12:19 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 11:49 dysenterymd wrote:On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea. Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar. More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros. Yeah, while Trap has had some notable flops, he's at worst average on consistency: Maru, Rogue, Cure, arguably Parting, Zest, and Dark are all less consistent. He's probably as consistent than the big three Europeans at this point, honestly.
Consistently, Maru has been the best one in 2021, he was never out of a Ro.4 of a tournament until GSL Season 2. And what Trap lacking is consistency at the very top tournament. All the guys that you mentioned, minus Cure, has made deep run at IEM/WCS/WESG tournament or even won them. Trap has not been able to win the big prize pool yet, and that is reflected on the Career Earning he has gotten so far. Thats why he got the reputation of being a "tier 2 winner", and while that is not fair to Trap, he need to change that view pretty soon.
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On July 20 2021 12:25 angry_maia wrote:
Hmm, so I don't really understand claims about PvT being imba at a pro level. I can totally understand claims like "P is easier to play" or "T has to deal with a ton of bullshit like proxy void," but at the end of the day balance is a statistical argument and aigulac pretty definitively shows that the match-up is far from imbalanced (hovering close to 50.9% in map score, and the top 10 on aigulac is actually much more terran heavy than toss).
Balance whining is fine if its just lolz, but done seriously it really minimizes the efforts that pros like Trap put in. He's had some really devastating losses and has really worked for what he's accomplished this year.
If you want to talk statistic, then you must also include the History of the winrate, not just the CURRENT rate. Since 2018, PvT has been favorable toward Toss, lowest winrate is 48.4% and highest winrate is 55.2%. Citing Aligulac ranking is also not a good "stats" as well because of the way Aligulac making their rating, most Terran will cruise through 90% of the Protoss (mostly EU) and boosting great rating TvP, but will drop against the top Toss like Trap/Parting/Zest/Showtime. That is not including Hero already dropping Terran left and right with Classic coming back.
And this "balance whining" is not really specifically toward Trap, but general TvP. I think Trap is great, but at the same time he has some benefit with the current PvT meta. Does that mean he still deserves the win? Absolutely.
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On July 20 2021 12:25 angry_maia wrote:
Hmm, so I don't really understand claims about PvT being imba at a pro level. I can totally understand claims like "P is easier to play" or "T has to deal with a ton of bullshit like proxy void," but at the end of the day balance is a statistical argument and aigulac pretty definitively shows that the match-up is far from imbalanced (hovering close to 50.9% in map score, and the top 10 on aigulac is actually much more terran heavy than toss).
Balance whining is fine if its just lolz, but done seriously it really minimizes the efforts that pros like Trap put in. He's had some really devastating losses and has really worked for what he's accomplished this year.
It happens every time Protoss wins.
Even though P hasn't won Code S since 2017.
Even though the last P World Champion was in 2015.
Even though Trap is the only P to win a premier tournament (other than Dreamhack NA) in 2020 or 2021.
I mean it's better here than YouTube where every Protoss victory is just "Protossed" or "p imba," but I worry that if Blizzard ever shows up with another balance patch it'll nerf Protoss into the ground. Like when they patched after that Super Tournament where Protoss dominated even though Zerg had crushed every other competition for like a year and a half.
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Northern Ireland25658 Posts
On July 20 2021 12:48 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 12:19 QOGQOG wrote:On July 20 2021 11:49 dysenterymd wrote:On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea. Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar. More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros. Yeah, while Trap has had some notable flops, he's at worst average on consistency: Maru, Rogue, Cure, arguably Parting, Zest, and Dark are all less consistent. He's probably as consistent than the big three Europeans at this point, honestly. Consistently, Maru has been the best one in 2021, he was never out of a Ro.4 of a tournament until GSL Season 2. And what Trap lacking is consistency at the very top tournament. All the guys that you mentioned, minus Cure, has made deep run at IEM/WCS/WESG tournament or even won them. Trap has not been able to win the big prize pool yet, and that is reflected on the Career Earning he has gotten so far. Thats why he got the reputation of being a "tier 2 winner", and while that is not fair to Trap, he need to change that view pretty soon.
Trap IS Mr Consistency for the last 2+ years though.
A triple of Super Tournaments, a Dreamhack here, a TSL here. 3 GSL finals, he has the record for consecutive GSL Ro8s now.
He does have a certain rep but he’s been pretty stellar in GSL without taking one home yet, and bombing in that IEM was a genuine underperformance from him for sure but it’s a bit of an outlier there.
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On July 20 2021 14:02 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 12:48 tigera6 wrote:On July 20 2021 12:19 QOGQOG wrote:On July 20 2021 11:49 dysenterymd wrote:On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea. Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar. More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros. Yeah, while Trap has had some notable flops, he's at worst average on consistency: Maru, Rogue, Cure, arguably Parting, Zest, and Dark are all less consistent. He's probably as consistent than the big three Europeans at this point, honestly. Consistently, Maru has been the best one in 2021, he was never out of a Ro.4 of a tournament until GSL Season 2. And what Trap lacking is consistency at the very top tournament. All the guys that you mentioned, minus Cure, has made deep run at IEM/WCS/WESG tournament or even won them. Trap has not been able to win the big prize pool yet, and that is reflected on the Career Earning he has gotten so far. Thats why he got the reputation of being a "tier 2 winner", and while that is not fair to Trap, he need to change that view pretty soon. Trap IS Mr Consistency for the last 2+ years though. A triple of Super Tournaments, a Dreamhack here, a TSL here. 3 GSL finals, he has the record for consecutive GSL Ro8s now. He does have a certain rep but he’s been pretty stellar in GSL without taking one home yet, and bombing in that IEM was a genuine underperformance from him for sure but it’s a bit of an outlier there.
Its more than an "outlier" actually, like I said Trap never get deep in the tournament with mega-prize like IEM and Blizzcon since 2019. I think thats where you cement your legacy, and also make your earning. Being consistent in lower-tier tournament is nice and all, but you need to put your name on the map by getting the big one. If you think about it, Reynor didnt really win anything before IEM, and his performance in Last Chance was horrific, but he raised his performance and now is the World Champ. Trap seems to be one that consistently very good throughout the years, but have trouble winning at the biggest stage.
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France12895 Posts
On July 20 2021 12:25 angry_maia wrote:
Hmm, so I don't really understand claims about PvT being imba at a pro level. I can totally understand claims like "P is easier to play" or "T has to deal with a ton of bullshit like proxy void," but at the end of the day balance is a statistical argument and aigulac pretty definitively shows that the match-up is far from imbalanced (hovering close to 50.9% in map score, and the top 10 on aigulac is actually much more terran heavy than toss).
Balance whining is fine if its just lolz, but done seriously it really minimizes the efforts that pros like Trap put in. He's had some really devastating losses and has really worked for what he's accomplished this year.
Protoss are deflated on aligulac partly because of PvP being volatile -> highest PvP ratings are far lower than TvT and ZvZ iirc, and that lowers the general rating of Protoss players.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 20 2021 11:49 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 01:31 parksonsc wrote:On July 20 2021 01:17 Garbo1 wrote:On July 19 2021 22:54 Poopi wrote:On July 19 2021 22:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 19 2021 21:41 BisuDagger wrote:
Where's that guy from the last LR and Preview threads who kept trashing Trap's current form and said Bunny should have an easy victory? honestly if we talk about the same guy (Garbo something iirc) his points weren't stupid and I was myself quite on a Bunny hype train. It's easy to say afterwards that Trap was sooooo much better and that Bunny didn't stand a chance. His first trick didn't work at all, which probably didn't give him any confidence and increase the pressure on him ; then he gets mauled by a blink build, and then 3-0 with the + Show Spoiler + proxy void ray stuff and it's curtains, you just don't recover from that in that context ; I know Maru reverse swept Trap last time, but I just stopped watching at 3-0 and I was right to do so. Now imagine Trap goes for a later robo in the first game and Bunny's gamble pays off, maybe we get at least a decent series. Won't say I'm sure we do, because Bunny didn't look on point to me while Trap was playing in a very decisive way, but I think that saying Bunny could bother Trap wasn't completely idiotic ; after all, Heromarine said on his stream that he considers himself a very similar player to Bunny, and the last time Trap and Heromarine played an important series it didn't go well for Trap. Granted, it was a bo3, but I wouldn't have been surprised if Bunny had taken some games today. Anyway he obviously didn't but both possible finals have great potential, so I'm still excited for Thursday and the upcoming finals On the other hand you kinda knew that guy was trolling since in addition to a very low post count, he started talking about Trap being so so bad because he lost to Astrea. Given that Astrea has taken a map of virtually all best progamers (I checked Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark, Maru, Stats...), if it's not trolling it's naive at best. But Bunny did have a lot of momentum going for him, 4-0 was not the most expected outcome even though we probably all feared it might happen given the 3-0 at GSL:ST2 and the fact that Trap almost 4-0d Maru in the same ro4 spot. I wasn't trolling at all, I legitimately believed Bunny was favoured to win. I'm not ashamed of what I commented, and it's not like it shouldn't hold any weight. I used Astrea as the example because he should have been the weakest in that group at IEM, and Trap lost 4 out 5 of his series that day, including to Astrea. It sits at the forefront of my mind of how I perceive Trap. Again, I was wrong jn my prediction here today. I still don't like Trap, and Bunny played like crap today. Maybe it was because of Trap. Maybe Bunny got the jitters. But Bunny looked flawless this season, and he got wrecked so badly it was a pathetic looking series. I don't know what my post count has to do with anything? To be honest I've been avoiding this forum for the last 5 months so as not to be spoiled on results, Katowice had some 160 hours of gameplay and it took me over 2 months to get through it all, and so I've been playing catchup on it and GSL ever since. Only now just caught up. I'm with you. I don't like Trap either. He is an amazing player and really scary when he is on form. But the thing I don't like about him is that he looks like a NA GM player once in a while and that is unacceptable for a top-tier player. Yeah Rogue and Maru have bad days too, but no way on earth they would lose to players like Astrea. Yeah Maru and Rogue have just lost to players like Meomaika and Namshar. More seriously, Trap occasionally bombs for sure, but Astrea is a lot better than people are giving him credit for. NA is a weak region but if you look at Astrea's results in international competitions over the past year it's hard to argue he's in significantly worse form than the weaker Korean pros.
In BO7? BO3 is still pretty volatile in SC2
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lol the bashing of the probably best player in the world right now is hilarious in this thread
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If the Party (i) boy beats Dark, Protoss is definitely getting nerfed. Winning a GSL was not part of the plan for this race xD
Jokes aside, Trap has really good chances in the final regardless of the opponent imo. On one side he should be favored vs Parting and on the other he can see how Dark builds and play vs Protoss (assuming Zergs have builds at all )
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On July 20 2021 17:17 Harris1st wrote:
lol the bashing of the probably best player in the world right now is hilarious in this thread
Huh? So you never heard of people bashing Serral, Rogue and Reynor? Where have you been for the last 3 years?
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On July 20 2021 23:01 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2021 17:17 Harris1st wrote:
lol the bashing of the probably best player in the world right now is hilarious in this thread Huh? So you never heard of people bashing Serral, Rogue and Reynor? Where have you been for the last 3 years?
True but in two of those cases the bashing came from Korean elitist for not beeing Korean which was kinda expected from them regardless of the outcome. And Rogue for beeing a P****zerg ^^
And now Trap wiping the floor with Bunny in Code S semis and half the comments are "lol Trap wow so bad much lucky"
Anyway, TL.net never ceases to amaze
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EPT
