On February 01 2021 00:16 Charoisaur wrote: For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. TY 5. MMA For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain/herO For Zerg: 1. Life 2. Rogue 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
Everybody is l;ike - look, Mvp. And they ignore a world champion and 2-time Code S champion MC. Like guys, if Mvp is there why not MC? Especially considering Protoss doesn't have that many champion material, especially in winning the IEM WC/Blizzcon titles.
On February 01 2021 00:16 Charoisaur wrote: For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. TY 5. MMA For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain/herO For Zerg: 1. Life 2. Rogue 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
Everybody is l;ike - look, Mvp. And they ignore a world champion and 2-time Code S champion MC. Like guys, if Mvp is there why not MC? Especially considering Protoss doesn't have that many champion material, especially in winning the IEM WC/Blizzcon titles.
the competition for Protoss players is just tougher, a terran player with exactly the achievements of MC would surely be in the top 5. But compared to those top 5 Protoss players I just can't justify putting MC over any of them. but he's just barely below them.
On February 01 2021 00:16 Charoisaur wrote: For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. TY 5. MMA For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain/herO For Zerg: 1. Life 2. Rogue 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
Everybody is l;ike - look, Mvp. And they ignore a world champion and 2-time Code S champion MC. Like guys, if Mvp is there why not MC? Especially considering Protoss doesn't have that many champion material, especially in winning the IEM WC/Blizzcon titles.
Protoss actually has its success more spread out than the other races. I did a quick count of players who won at least 2 Code S/OSL/SSL or won at least 1 World Championship (IEM or Blizzard). There's 9 Protoss players (MC, Classic, Rain, Zest, Stats, Genius, AcE, PartinG, sOs although Genius and AcE obviously have no business on any GOAT lists) vs 6 Terrans (Mvp, Maru, INnoVation, TY, YoDa, ByuN) and 6 Zergs (NesTea, Life, Dark, Rogue, Serral, soO).
Obviously that's without counting all the other things one might win like Super Tournaments or regular IEMs.
For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. Byun 5. TY For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain For Zerg: 1. Rogue 2. Life 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
Yeah I agree. Both Taeja and Mvp rank high in both qualitative and quantitative imo. Also, I think it's a false dichotomy for RKC to think that we *only* have to rank based on either qual *or* quant.
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
A Korean-based player with no Starleague (or Blizzcon/IEM World) cannot come into the GOAT discussion - simple as that.
I can't imagine a tennis player being considered GOAT without winning a Grand Slam or chess player without being a World Champion.
The metric of 'GOAT' (and not award for most promising, most talented, highest peak) counts only specific achievements, first and foremost. If there's a tie, then we look at other factors. Anyone who doesn't even meet the minimum standard doesn't get to point to his or her dozen or so minor league wins.
On February 01 2021 00:16 Charoisaur wrote: For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. TY 5. MMA For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain/herO For Zerg: 1. Life 2. Rogue 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
Everybody is l;ike - look, Mvp. And they ignore a world champion and 2-time Code S champion MC. Like guys, if Mvp is there why not MC? Especially considering Protoss doesn't have that many champion material, especially in winning the IEM WC/Blizzcon titles.
Protoss actually has its success more spread out than the other races. I did a quick count of players who won at least 2 Code S/OSL/SSL or won at least 1 World Championship (IEM or Blizzard). There's 9 Protoss players (MC, Classic, Rain, Zest, Stats, Genius, AcE, PartinG, sOs although Genius and AcE obviously have no business on any GOAT lists) vs 6 Terrans (Mvp, Maru, INnoVation, TY, YoDa, ByuN) and 6 Zergs (NesTea, Life, Dark, Rogue, Serral, soO).
Obviously that's without counting all the other things one might win like Super Tournaments or regular IEMs.
This is a good objective and quantitative 'minimum' floor to start with. You can pile in qualitative factors on top of this. But such factors only cuts people off already on the list, and not a basis to add someone in.
Personally, I would impose a later cut-off date that would eliminate some names from the list. But that can be rather arbitrary and offend the 'objective' rule.. So my reason to cut them off is more driven by 'qualitative' factors - giving less weight to tourneys in the early era.
I'm not saying that the GOAT metric should be purely quantitative or qualitative (although my earlier post seems to imply so). I believe both factors play a role, in distinct ways. It's possible to have quantitative and qualitative scale of counting 'trophies' (e.g. Blizzcon = 15 points, GSL = 10 points, DH = 5 points). But that's also rather arbitrary as well, and frankly speaking, in my view, that's not how the GOAT works.
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
A Korean-based player with no Starleague (or Blizzcon/IEM World) cannot come into the GOAT discussion - simple as that.
I can't imagine a tennis player being considered GOAT without winning a Grand Slam or chess player without being a World Champion.
The metric of 'GOAT' (and not award for most promising, most talented, highest peak) counts only specific achievements, first and foremost. If there's a tie, then we look at other factors. Anyone who doesn't even meet the minimum standard doesn't get to point to his or her dozen or so minor league wins.
Yours is a pretty extreme take, definitely not a commonly accepted metric like looking at Grand Slam titles is in Tennis. If you take into consideration only the most prestigious tournament you are at risk of proclaiming GOAT players who were a non factor for the majority of the years in which they won multiple titles and ignoring completely some others who were a dominating force but just happened to lose in the finals or repeatedly defeatead the same players who were winning your "Uber" tournaments to win titles you deem unworthy. Obviously, the most prestigious tournaments should weight relatively the most but it should be wise not only to look at "lower" tournaments but also include notable placements.
Even if I can't agree with your criteria, it's now clear why you ignore TaeJa; however, it still makes no sense to me how you could disregard Mvp, the man for which the cursed G5L trophy was conceived and sculpted.
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
A Korean-based player with no Starleague (or Blizzcon/IEM World) cannot come into the GOAT discussion - simple as that.
I can't imagine a tennis player being considered GOAT without winning a Grand Slam or chess player without being a World Champion.
The metric of 'GOAT' (and not award for most promising, most talented, highest peak) counts only specific achievements, first and foremost. If there's a tie, then we look at other factors. Anyone who doesn't even meet the minimum standard doesn't get to point to his or her dozen or so minor league wins.
Yours is a pretty extreme take, definitely not a commonly accepted metric like looking at Grand Slam titles is in Tennis. If you take into consideration only the most prestigious tournament you are at risk of proclaiming GOAT players who were a non factor for the majority of the years in which they won multiple titles and ignoring completely some others who were a dominating force but just happened to lose in the finals or repeatedly defeatead the same players who were winning your "Uber" tournaments to win titles you deem unworthy. Obviously, the most prestigious tournaments should weight relatively the most but it should be wise not only to look at "lower" tournaments but also include notable placements.
Even if I can't agree with your criteria, it's now clear why you ignore TaeJa; however, it still makes no sense to me how you could disregard Mvp, the man for which the cursed G5L trophy was conceived and sculpted.
My view is extreme? Conventional GOAT discussion on tennis revolves around Federer, Nadal, Borg, McEnroe, etc. For chess: Fischer, Kasparov, Carlsen, etc. In no particular order, of course. GOAT focuses first on the top layer of achievements (and not stuff like ELO peak, length of period as World's No 1, number of intermediate or minor tourney wins, etc). Judging GOAT players for team sports is more subjective and difficult, but that's a different kettle of fish (e.g. still possible to rate Messi or Ronaldo as GOAT despite not winning a World Cup).
I didn't discount Mvp totally. I have reservations on him being Top 3. At highest, he's #3. Why do I disregard his GSL haul? Because of certain 'qualitative' factors - in his era, there were far more GSLs to be won, and he left the scene before the KeSPA elephants came (and young SC2 stars like Maru and Byun truly blossomed). In short, he capitalised on an era that he had no real peers in terms of 'experience' (a good BW player that avoided facing other better BW players*, and faced young SC2 stars still climbing through the ranks without the benefit of BW experience). But yes, I admit my views on Mvp are 'extreme'.
* Edit: JulyZerg and Boxer were past their prime. MC was a BW B-teamer.
On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote: I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree
EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
How would TY and Byun quantitatively overtake a player who won 11 tournaments in the span of two years? I get that "some Premiers are more premier than the others" but you can't pretend all TaeJa has to say is that he was very dominating like he didn't win anything; he has no korean titles and won no world championships but in my book he's still above TY(who is certainly more accomplished than Byun after 2020).
I am a little perplexed when you imply that Mvp has no heavy titles, he won three Code S; also, if being very dominant and nearly unstoppable connected to "quality" to you I'd suggest you to take a look at Mvp's 2011. I am struggling hard to find any metric for which we could rank Mvp lower than third on the list.
A Korean-based player with no Starleague (or Blizzcon/IEM World) cannot come into the GOAT discussion - simple as that.
I can't imagine a tennis player being considered GOAT without winning a Grand Slam or chess player without being a World Champion.
The metric of 'GOAT' (and not award for most promising, most talented, highest peak) counts only specific achievements, first and foremost. If there's a tie, then we look at other factors. Anyone who doesn't even meet the minimum standard doesn't get to point to his or her dozen or so minor league wins.
Yours is a pretty extreme take, definitely not a commonly accepted metric like looking at Grand Slam titles is in Tennis. If you take into consideration only the most prestigious tournament you are at risk of proclaiming GOAT players who were a non factor for the majority of the years in which they won multiple titles and ignoring completely some others who were a dominating force but just happened to lose in the finals or repeatedly defeatead the same players who were winning your "Uber" tournaments to win titles you deem unworthy. Obviously, the most prestigious tournaments should weight relatively the most but it should be wise not only to look at "lower" tournaments but also include notable placements.
Even if I can't agree with your criteria, it's now clear why you ignore TaeJa; however, it still makes no sense to me how you could disregard Mvp, the man for which the cursed G5L trophy was conceived and sculpted.
My view is extreme? Conventional GOAT discussion on tennis revolves around Federer, Nadal, Borg, McEnroe, etc. For chess: Fischer, Kasparov, Carlsen, etc. In no particular order, of course. GOAT focuses first on the top layer of achievements (and not stuff like ELO peak, length of period as World's No 1, number of intermediate or minor tourney wins, etc). Judging GOAT players for team sports is more subjective and difficult, but that's a different kettle of fish (e.g. still possible to rate Messi or Ronaldo as GOAT despite not winning a World Cup).
I didn't discount Mvp totally. I have reservations on him being Top 3. At highest, he's #3. Why do I disregard his GSL haul? Because of certain 'qualitative' factors - in his era, there were far more GSLs to be won, and he left the scene before the KeSPA elephants came (and young SC2 stars like Maru and Byun truly blossomed). In short, he capitalised on an era that he had no real peers in terms of 'experience' (a good BW player that avoided facing other better BW players*, and faced young SC2 stars still climbing through the ranks without the benefit of BW experience). But yes, I admit my views on Mvp are 'extreme'.
* Edit: JulyZerg and Boxer were past their prime. MC was a BW B-teamer.
But it doesn't matter exactly, Mvp and others have to beat the top players in their time. We can argue that there were others good players, but they were not playing, so the discussion is pointless. If this would be the course of the discussion we would have to create 3 eras of SC2 which would suck so much. (preKeSPA, KeSPA, postKeSPA)
Edit> Actually 4, because of FOREIGNERS. So we would have 2 parallel lanes(Foreign, Korean) where we split the Korean in the 3 parts and as such we couldn't compare foreigners vs Koreans as many didn't played in all the Korean eras. Which would make some fanboys really unhappy
EPT
