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On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 
2 starleagues is pretty big
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big
Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? 
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Northern Ireland27029 Posts
On January 31 2021 18:57 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 18:25 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 17:47 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 12:36 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 08:52 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 08:05 MarianoSC2 wrote:On January 31 2021 05:21 ssg wrote:On January 30 2021 23:17 outscar wrote:
What the hell, Trap is destroying everyone lately. Another couple GSLs and we can consider him as toss GOAT? For sure. MC Exists MC? Lol But yeah, not yet. Zest is still ahead overall. If Trap wins IEM, then matbe, and if he adds GSL to that then yeah, for sure  Zest won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. MC won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. Both won some other tournaments(like HSC). If MC is lol, so is Zest. It's not like we have any other Protoss with such heavy titles. Classic and Rain are close, if only Classic won that IEM If Trap wins the IEM he overtakes both Rain and Classic, but he has no chance in overtaking neither of MC or Zest. Edit> Actually, considering the IEM is online, we may talk about the fact Rain won Code S and Starleague and Classic won SSL and a Code S title. Stats has these 2 titles as well. MC? I really love his attitude and antics. His 'ez man list' comment really tickles me to this day (I even occasionally use variants in my everyday conversation). But *cough cough* weak era.... A pure quantitative measurement of GOAT just don't work. Some trophies are worth more than others. Some premier tourneys are more 'premier' than others. Top 3 Protoss GOAT contenders would be Trap, Stats, and Classic. sOs and Zest are wildcards (form just too erratic). I really love Rain, but his SC2 reign was just too short to qualify in the GOAT discussion... This is some heavy recency bias. Trap may be in the discussion but no way is he above either Zest or sOs, players who have displayed their prowess over multiple expansions and who have, pound for pound, significantly more prestigious wins than Trap which you yourself say are significant measures when it comes to determining GOAT status. Trap has only won 4 titles which could be considered premier and he hasn't even got a starleague, blizzcon or iem Katowice. Agreed. That's why I put Zest and sOs still within Top 5. I should've said that I was going by a more 'objective' view that most other people would agree. My main point was dismissing MC totally as a Toss dragon (and yes, same goes with Parting). The problem with 2020 is the lack of offline international tourneys and Blizzcon being shelved, So Stats and Traps being on the upswing kinda got shafted. Personally? My Top 3 is Classic, sOs and Zest. Trap and Stats are still stuck at Kong silver surfer level  Trap doesn't belong in the top 5 to begin with. In terms of the amount of tournaments they've won AND the quality of tournaments they've won (as Code S and its OSL/SSL equivalents, Katowice and Blizzcon clearly are the most important events) AND the longevity of their top player status - Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, MC, CJ herO and Rain (not in order) are all pretty clearly above Trap. And that's only individual achievements and not considering Proleague at all. There's a solid case for Liquid HerO and PartinG as well. To dismiss MC because the competition was what it was is not really fair. He could only beat what was in front of him and so he did. It took many years for another Protoss to finally match his GSL results. And many people were still arguing in favor of Mvp after Inno tied him in Code S wins so that has to count for something
It’s just so hard to compare across eras, for some reason it’s that bit trickier with Protoss players. Probably because there’s more depth there that is reasonably close in level, so personal proclivities to split them kinda really come into play.
Plus the distance of time is pretty huge. Even with Liquipedia in front of me it’s hard to really transport myself back to the context where as a younger man I was blown away by how good the Kespa Tosses got, and quickly.
Rain was probably my personal favourite, but perhaps his legend is enhanced by his brief stay and relatively early retirement. Zest has stuck around forever and dropped into the good player/can make the occasional deep run bracket for so long that it can make one forget quite how monstrous peak Zest was (in another expansion after all). If Zest had quit say in 2016, he would probably be remembered with more reverence than he is today .
Likewise sOs is the madcap genius with the clutch factor in huge tournaments, how’s that stack with Classic and Stats’ general better consistency in non-WCs? I think Legacy truncates the early/midgame to a degree that it does negate some of sOs’ strengths. CJ herO was a bloody good player as well, who made winning regular IEMs his real calling-card.
I’d just throw the Kespa mainstays into one rough grouping and it’s hard to definitively split them.
MC is definitively the best Protoss who laid the groundwork for Toss play when we’re talking the formative period of the game, I don’t think that’s arguable.
Then Parting and Liquid HerO are quite a distance ahead of the pack unless my brain is faulty between MC’s peak and the maturation of the Kespa era, and those fellows took a fair bit of inspiration from their play.
As to now, I guess Trap is clearly the best Protoss of recent times and what feels like a post-post Kespa era, and maybe when we’re looking back retrospectively will be seen as the wind-down era of SC2. Hopefully not. It’s not just a hot streak either Trap’s already had pretty stellar results for probably longer than MC’s actual peak for example.
By post-post Kespa era I think there was a fair period where the formal dissolution of Kespa teams and structures didn’t bite too hard, the players were still there after all. Now with military service and retirements biting that Kespa core is really dwindling and the pipeline to replace them hasn’t kicked in, if it ever will.
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On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles?
I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii
...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era.
On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 31 2021 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii ...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era. On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc.
Splitting the games is IMO stupid. Rain, Classic, MC, sOs, Zest and others all have to beat the best players in their time to get their top titles. It doesn't matter these players are worse by todays standards. By this logic we should clear the hall of fame for every sport every 20 years or so, because the players can't handle the current standards.
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On January 31 2021 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii ...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era. On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc. Splitting the games is IMO stupid. Rain, Classic, MC, sOs, Zest and others all have to beat the best players in their time to get their top titles. It doesn't matter these players are worse by todays standards. By this logic we should clear the hall of fame for every sport every 20 years or so, because the players can't handle the current standards.
I agree with you that it's reasonable to consider the entire lifespan of SC2, rather than splitting up expansions, although keep in mind that your sports analogy doesn't work unless the sport is significantly revamped, because SC2's expansions did have meaningful differences. If chess suddenly introduced ten new pieces, made the game board a different shape, and added in additional patches every month to mix things up a little, then we'd see a parallel. But that's generally not what we see, nor do we see such drastic changes in basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc., compared to e-sports. It's definitely easier to compare players, even from several years apart, when the game hasn't changed much.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 31 2021 22:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii ...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era. On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc. Splitting the games is IMO stupid. Rain, Classic, MC, sOs, Zest and others all have to beat the best players in their time to get their top titles. It doesn't matter these players are worse by todays standards. By this logic we should clear the hall of fame for every sport every 20 years or so, because the players can't handle the current standards. I agree with you that it's reasonable to consider the entire lifespan of SC2, rather than splitting up expansions, although keep in mind that your sports analogy doesn't work unless the sport is significantly revamped, because SC2's expansions did have meaningful differences. If chess suddenly introduced ten new pieces, made the game board a different shape, and added in additional patches every month to mix things up a little, then we'd see a parallel. But that's generally not what we see, nor do we see such drastic changes in basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc., compared to e-sports. It's definitely easier to compare players, even from several years apart, when the game hasn't changed much.
Sports don't change, the players and their regime do. MAradona was the best at his time, Pele as well, but they wouldn't hold todays standards for professional football players. And there's nothing wrong in it. They were the best at their time and they faced the other top players of their time to earn the the accolades.
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On January 31 2021 22:13 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 22:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 31 2021 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii ...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era. On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc. Splitting the games is IMO stupid. Rain, Classic, MC, sOs, Zest and others all have to beat the best players in their time to get their top titles. It doesn't matter these players are worse by todays standards. By this logic we should clear the hall of fame for every sport every 20 years or so, because the players can't handle the current standards. I agree with you that it's reasonable to consider the entire lifespan of SC2, rather than splitting up expansions, although keep in mind that your sports analogy doesn't work unless the sport is significantly revamped, because SC2's expansions did have meaningful differences. If chess suddenly introduced ten new pieces, made the game board a different shape, and added in additional patches every month to mix things up a little, then we'd see a parallel. But that's generally not what we see, nor do we see such drastic changes in basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc., compared to e-sports. It's definitely easier to compare players, even from several years apart, when the game hasn't changed much. Sports don't change, the players and their regime do. MAradona was the best at his time, Pele as well, but they wouldn't hold todays standards for professional football players. And there's nothing wrong in it. They were the best at their time and they faced the other top players of their time to earn the the accolades.
I agree, which is why it's not an appropriate parallel for SC2, as explained above.
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On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big
don't just look at the titles. On top of his 2 Starleagues + 1 super tournament he was in the finals of 3 (!) world championships and also 3 other Starleagues.
If it wasn't for the weaker era he played (compared to sOs' and Zests peak) in I'd probably rate him #1
now that I think about it I'm pretty sure he's the player who reached the most finals in tier 1 tournaments (tier 1 = Starleagues, GSLs, World Championships)
and yeah he also had a really strong record in Proleague
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On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well
For Stats it's pretty much the sheer amount of deep tournament runs since 2015. He sadly didn't win as much as he could - should - have, but he's the most successful Protoss of the past 5 years by a landslide. And 5 years, well, that's half of SC2's existence.
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Funny how most people overlook Dear. I don't rate him highly for the same reason as MC. They lacked the longevity over different eras and expansions. Unfortunately, same as Rain (though I'm quite positive he would have reached Top 3 GOAT had he stayed on SC2).
That's a ludicrous comparison though. Dear was the best player in the world for a couple of months, then spent the next 6 years of his career trying to get back to that high and never quite making it. MC and Rain were top Protoss players for years on end, both in WoL and HotS. As much as I love Dear, there's just too many Protoss players who were more successful than him over long periods of time.
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On January 31 2021 22:03 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 31 2021 21:45 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big Same can be said about others though, Rain has 2 big titles(Starleague and Code S), MC and Zest have 2 Code S titles. Classic has 2 big titles as Rain does. So, who of these 4 great players are in the top 3 as well as Stats based on the 2 big titles? I guess it subjectively depends on the criteria that each of us deems most important. In terms of earnings, the Top 5 Protosses are Stats, sOs, Zest, MC, and Classic: https://www.esportsearnings.com/games/151-starcraft-ii ...although given that MC was the highest-earning SC2 player back in the day, when tournaments had significantly smaller prize pools, I would say that I'm most impressed with MC's earnings compared to everyone else's, as he retired back in mid-2015 and is still considered a top earner for the game. (None of the top 10 prize pools in SC2 were during MC's era; they all occurred later.) He was also leagues ahead of other Protoss players during his era. On the other hand, LotV is a more fleshed out expansion and has more competition between top Protosses, so one could argue that current Protosses might be better than older Protosses, especially if we think that the overall player ability has increased over the past 5 years, as opposed to treating LotV as an entirely different game than the golden age of SC2, with MC, Mvp, Nestea, MMA, MKP, etc. Splitting the games is IMO stupid. Rain, Classic, MC, sOs, Zest and others all have to beat the best players in their time to get their top titles. It doesn't matter these players are worse by todays standards. By this logic we should clear the hall of fame for every sport every 20 years or so, because the players can't handle the current standards.
In SC2 we can objectively say that some eras are more competitive than others though.
Even disregarding the level of play it's objectively harder to win a GSL competing against 60 other Progamers practicing every day in teamhouses than against barely 30 progamers practicing from home.
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Northern Ireland27029 Posts
On January 31 2021 22:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:40 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well 2 starleagues is pretty big don't just look at the titles. On top of his 2 Starleagues + 1 super tournament he was in the finals of 3 (!) world championships and also 3 other Starleagues. If it wasn't for the weaker era he played (compared to sOs' and Zests peak) in I'd probably rate him #1 now that I think about it I'm pretty sure he's the player who reached the most finals in tier 1 tournaments (tier 1 = Starleagues, GSLs, World Championships) and yeah he also had a really strong record in Proleague
I guess sheer quality of play + his style of play as well. If I could choose to play like any Toss player at their peak it’s probably Stats and I’m sure a lot of people would say the same.
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On January 31 2021 22:31 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:38 RKC wrote:I'm really curious - what places Stats in Top 3? Yes, on reflection, maybe I would slip Rain in Top 5. Shame he has left BW as well For Stats it's pretty much the sheer amount of deep tournament runs since 2015. He sadly didn't win as much as he could - should - have, but he's the most successful Protoss of the past 5 years by a landslide. And 5 years, well, that's half of SC2's existence. Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:
Funny how most people overlook Dear. I don't rate him highly for the same reason as MC. They lacked the longevity over different eras and expansions. Unfortunately, same as Rain (though I'm quite positive he would have reached Top 3 GOAT had he stayed on SC2).
That's a ludicrous comparison though. Dear was the best player in the world for a couple of months, then spent the next 6 years of his career trying to get back to that high and never quite making it. MC and Rain were top Protoss players for years on end, both in WoL and HotS. As much as I love Dear, there's just too many Protoss players who were more successful than him over long periods of time.
MC's glory years were in WoL. What notable victory in HoTS? I really can't recall.
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France12946 Posts
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 18:57 Elentos wrote:On January 31 2021 18:25 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 17:47 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 12:36 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 08:52 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 08:05 MarianoSC2 wrote:On January 31 2021 05:21 ssg wrote:On January 30 2021 23:17 outscar wrote:
What the hell, Trap is destroying everyone lately. Another couple GSLs and we can consider him as toss GOAT? For sure. MC Exists MC? Lol But yeah, not yet. Zest is still ahead overall. If Trap wins IEM, then matbe, and if he adds GSL to that then yeah, for sure Zest won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. MC won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. Both won some other tournaments(like HSC). If MC is lol, so is Zest. It's not like we have any other Protoss with such heavy titles. Classic and Rain are close, if only Classic won that IEM If Trap wins the IEM he overtakes both Rain and Classic, but he has no chance in overtaking neither of MC or Zest. Edit> Actually, considering the IEM is online, we may talk about the fact Rain won Code S and Starleague and Classic won SSL and a Code S title. Stats has these 2 titles as well. MC? I really love his attitude and antics. His 'ez man list' comment really tickles me to this day (I even occasionally use variants in my everyday conversation). But *cough cough* weak era.... A pure quantitative measurement of GOAT just don't work. Some trophies are worth more than others. Some premier tourneys are more 'premier' than others. Top 3 Protoss GOAT contenders would be Trap, Stats, and Classic. sOs and Zest are wildcards (form just too erratic). I really love Rain, but his SC2 reign was just too short to qualify in the GOAT discussion... This is some heavy recency bias. Trap may be in the discussion but no way is he above either Zest or sOs, players who have displayed their prowess over multiple expansions and who have, pound for pound, significantly more prestigious wins than Trap which you yourself say are significant measures when it comes to determining GOAT status. Trap has only won 4 titles which could be considered premier and he hasn't even got a starleague, blizzcon or iem Katowice. Agreed. That's why I put Zest and sOs still within Top 5. I should've said that I was going by a more 'objective' view that most other people would agree. My main point was dismissing MC totally as a Toss dragon (and yes, same goes with Parting). The problem with 2020 is the lack of offline international tourneys and Blizzcon being shelved, So Stats and Traps being on the upswing kinda got shafted. Personally? My Top 3 is Classic, sOs and Zest. Trap and Stats are still stuck at Kong silver surfer level Trap doesn't belong in the top 5 to begin with. In terms of the amount of tournaments they've won AND the quality of tournaments they've won (as Code S and its OSL/SSL equivalents, Katowice and Blizzcon clearly are the most important events) AND the longevity of their top player status - Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, MC, CJ herO and Rain (not in order) are all pretty clearly above Trap. And that's only individual achievements and not considering Proleague at all. There's a solid case for Liquid HerO and PartinG as well. To dismiss MC because the competition was what it was is not really fair. He could only beat what was in front of him and so he did. It took many years for another Protoss to finally match his GSL results. And many people were still arguing in favor of Mvp after Inno tied him in Code S wins so that has to count for something Funny how most people overlook Dear. I don't rate him highly for the same reason as MC. They lacked the longevity over different eras and expansions. Unfortunately, same as Rain (though I'm quite positive he would have reached Top 3 GOAT had he stayed on SC2). Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats?
TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal...
Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5.
You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
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I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear.
Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up.
QUOTE]On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:
On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all...
1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats?
TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal...
Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5.
You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.[/QUOTE]
The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third.
TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
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On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 18:57 Elentos wrote:On January 31 2021 18:25 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 17:47 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 12:36 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 08:52 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 08:05 MarianoSC2 wrote:On January 31 2021 05:21 ssg wrote:On January 30 2021 23:17 outscar wrote:
What the hell, Trap is destroying everyone lately. Another couple GSLs and we can consider him as toss GOAT? For sure. MC Exists MC? Lol But yeah, not yet. Zest is still ahead overall. If Trap wins IEM, then matbe, and if he adds GSL to that then yeah, for sure Zest won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. MC won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. Both won some other tournaments(like HSC). If MC is lol, so is Zest. It's not like we have any other Protoss with such heavy titles. Classic and Rain are close, if only Classic won that IEM If Trap wins the IEM he overtakes both Rain and Classic, but he has no chance in overtaking neither of MC or Zest. Edit> Actually, considering the IEM is online, we may talk about the fact Rain won Code S and Starleague and Classic won SSL and a Code S title. Stats has these 2 titles as well. MC? I really love his attitude and antics. His 'ez man list' comment really tickles me to this day (I even occasionally use variants in my everyday conversation). But *cough cough* weak era.... A pure quantitative measurement of GOAT just don't work. Some trophies are worth more than others. Some premier tourneys are more 'premier' than others. Top 3 Protoss GOAT contenders would be Trap, Stats, and Classic. sOs and Zest are wildcards (form just too erratic). I really love Rain, but his SC2 reign was just too short to qualify in the GOAT discussion... This is some heavy recency bias. Trap may be in the discussion but no way is he above either Zest or sOs, players who have displayed their prowess over multiple expansions and who have, pound for pound, significantly more prestigious wins than Trap which you yourself say are significant measures when it comes to determining GOAT status. Trap has only won 4 titles which could be considered premier and he hasn't even got a starleague, blizzcon or iem Katowice. Agreed. That's why I put Zest and sOs still within Top 5. I should've said that I was going by a more 'objective' view that most other people would agree. My main point was dismissing MC totally as a Toss dragon (and yes, same goes with Parting). The problem with 2020 is the lack of offline international tourneys and Blizzcon being shelved, So Stats and Traps being on the upswing kinda got shafted. Personally? My Top 3 is Classic, sOs and Zest. Trap and Stats are still stuck at Kong silver surfer level Trap doesn't belong in the top 5 to begin with. In terms of the amount of tournaments they've won AND the quality of tournaments they've won (as Code S and its OSL/SSL equivalents, Katowice and Blizzcon clearly are the most important events) AND the longevity of their top player status - Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, MC, CJ herO and Rain (not in order) are all pretty clearly above Trap. And that's only individual achievements and not considering Proleague at all. There's a solid case for Liquid HerO and PartinG as well. To dismiss MC because the competition was what it was is not really fair. He could only beat what was in front of him and so he did. It took many years for another Protoss to finally match his GSL results. And many people were still arguing in favor of Mvp after Inno tied him in Code S wins so that has to count for something Funny how most people overlook Dear. I don't rate him highly for the same reason as MC. They lacked the longevity over different eras and expansions. Unfortunately, same as Rain (though I'm quite positive he would have reached Top 3 GOAT had he stayed on SC2). Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all... 1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY.
MMA>ByuN
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For Terran: 1. Maru 2. INnoVation 3. Mvp 4. TY 5. MMA
For Protoss: 1. Zest 2. sOs 3.Stats 4. Classic 5. Rain/herO
For Zerg: 1. Life 2. Rogue 3. Dark 4. soO 5. Serral
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France12946 Posts
On February 01 2021 00:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 18:57 Elentos wrote:On January 31 2021 18:25 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 17:47 Z3nith wrote:On January 31 2021 12:36 RKC wrote:On January 31 2021 08:52 deacon.frost wrote:On January 31 2021 08:05 MarianoSC2 wrote:On January 31 2021 05:21 ssg wrote:
[quote]
MC Exists MC? Lol But yeah, not yet. Zest is still ahead overall. If Trap wins IEM, then matbe, and if he adds GSL to that then yeah, for sure Zest won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. MC won 2 Code S titles and 1 IEM WC title. Both won some other tournaments(like HSC). If MC is lol, so is Zest. It's not like we have any other Protoss with such heavy titles. Classic and Rain are close, if only Classic won that IEM If Trap wins the IEM he overtakes both Rain and Classic, but he has no chance in overtaking neither of MC or Zest. Edit> Actually, considering the IEM is online, we may talk about the fact Rain won Code S and Starleague and Classic won SSL and a Code S title. Stats has these 2 titles as well. MC? I really love his attitude and antics. His 'ez man list' comment really tickles me to this day (I even occasionally use variants in my everyday conversation). But *cough cough* weak era.... A pure quantitative measurement of GOAT just don't work. Some trophies are worth more than others. Some premier tourneys are more 'premier' than others. Top 3 Protoss GOAT contenders would be Trap, Stats, and Classic. sOs and Zest are wildcards (form just too erratic). I really love Rain, but his SC2 reign was just too short to qualify in the GOAT discussion... This is some heavy recency bias. Trap may be in the discussion but no way is he above either Zest or sOs, players who have displayed their prowess over multiple expansions and who have, pound for pound, significantly more prestigious wins than Trap which you yourself say are significant measures when it comes to determining GOAT status. Trap has only won 4 titles which could be considered premier and he hasn't even got a starleague, blizzcon or iem Katowice. Agreed. That's why I put Zest and sOs still within Top 5. I should've said that I was going by a more 'objective' view that most other people would agree. My main point was dismissing MC totally as a Toss dragon (and yes, same goes with Parting). The problem with 2020 is the lack of offline international tourneys and Blizzcon being shelved, So Stats and Traps being on the upswing kinda got shafted. Personally? My Top 3 is Classic, sOs and Zest. Trap and Stats are still stuck at Kong silver surfer level Trap doesn't belong in the top 5 to begin with. In terms of the amount of tournaments they've won AND the quality of tournaments they've won (as Code S and its OSL/SSL equivalents, Katowice and Blizzcon clearly are the most important events) AND the longevity of their top player status - Zest, Stats, Classic, sOs, MC, CJ herO and Rain (not in order) are all pretty clearly above Trap. And that's only individual achievements and not considering Proleague at all. There's a solid case for Liquid HerO and PartinG as well. To dismiss MC because the competition was what it was is not really fair. He could only beat what was in front of him and so he did. It took many years for another Protoss to finally match his GSL results. And many people were still arguing in favor of Mvp after Inno tied him in Code S wins so that has to count for something Funny how most people overlook Dear. I don't rate him highly for the same reason as MC. They lacked the longevity over different eras and expansions. Unfortunately, same as Rain (though I'm quite positive he would have reached Top 3 GOAT had he stayed on SC2). Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all... 1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY. MMA>ByuN
MMA is a solid 6.
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In terms of pre-LotV / mostly-WoL players who are still Top 5 GoaT in SC2 for their respective races, I'd say MC and Mvp are the two most obvious choices. Nestea was similarly dominant, but I guess he's more likely to be bumped out because there happen to be so many other strong Zergs in the modern era. MMA probably just misses the Top 5 too.
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On February 01 2021 00:09 Xain0n wrote:I would say MC, Zest> Stats, sOs>Rain, Classic, PartinG> HerO, Trap, herO, Neeb> Dear. Dear was very dominant for one season and won a couple of championships, he isn't really at the same level of the other contenders. It's pretty hard to rate Protoss in any of case, most of them are pretty clumped up. Show nested quote +On January 31 2021 23:40 Poopi wrote:On January 31 2021 21:22 RKC wrote:Mvp is not in my Top 3 Terran GOAT. Maybe not even in Top 5. Of course, I'm sure many would strongly disagree EDIT: Of course, Top 3 Zerg GOAT debate is perhaps the most fiery of all... 1. Maru 2. INno 3. ByuN 4. TY 5. Mvp I guess for Terran goats? TY after ByuN seems weird but Blizzcon is a big deal... Mvp can arguably be 3rd though, I’d put him max 3 min 5 so in no way out of top 5. You could put ByuN 5 but not lower, same for TY. The absolute lowest you could ever place Mvp on a Terran list is third. TaeJa is also a solid fourth and comes before TY, Byun and MMA.
I can understand someone arguing strongly for Mvp OR Taeja in Top 3/5. But ranking both of them highly is rather contradictory. Mvp ticks off the quantitative metrics - trophies. The case for Taeja is typically along qualitative lines - he's unstoppable at his peak, he's beaten top players, blah blah.
If we lean towards quantitative, Byun and TY definitely overtakes Taeja. If we go by qualitative, then Mvp will get bumped down a notch or two. Either way, I just don't see any objective metric that highly rates BOTH Mvp and Taeja over TY and Byun. Safe to say that any metric would have Maru and Inno in Top 3, of course.
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EPT
