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On August 13 2020 03:45 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2020 06:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's too bad that in SCII "a stage for you to do almost anything" usually translates to "a stage for pros to do roughly the same set of builds they've been doing on every map for the past 6 months". Most SCII maps are very much in the background, so I wouldn't mind having a larger share of 'opinionated' maps.
Also Whirlwind stayed around for so long, not so much on account of its (considerable) merits but moreso due to maps just not rotating that often back then. Lots of not so great maps like Antiga Shipyard stuck around for as long. I do think the fact that people love Golden Wall so much just kind of shows how much people have been craving more original, more "Opinionated" maps. I think it's not just that Golden Wall is especially good. It's more that Golden wall is good and strange after a 2 year drought of strange maps. ... I'm definitely salty that Invader is currently on even footing with Incineration Zone.
Yes, and no. Turbo Cruise '84 is a recent "strange" map. But it sucked. When it wasn't vetod it didn't lead to good games.
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On August 13 2020 05:53 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2020 03:45 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 12 2020 06:54 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's too bad that in SCII "a stage for you to do almost anything" usually translates to "a stage for pros to do roughly the same set of builds they've been doing on every map for the past 6 months". Most SCII maps are very much in the background, so I wouldn't mind having a larger share of 'opinionated' maps.
Also Whirlwind stayed around for so long, not so much on account of its (considerable) merits but moreso due to maps just not rotating that often back then. Lots of not so great maps like Antiga Shipyard stuck around for as long. I do think the fact that people love Golden Wall so much just kind of shows how much people have been craving more original, more "Opinionated" maps. I think it's not just that Golden Wall is especially good. It's more that Golden wall is good and strange after a 2 year drought of strange maps. ... I'm definitely salty that Invader is currently on even footing with Incineration Zone. Yes, and no. Turbo Cruise '84 is a recent "strange" map. But it sucked. When it wasn't vetod it didn't lead to good games.
I think that’s why Golden Wall adherents are so vociferous. A map that is both strange and actually good is such a rarity
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Iraq16955 Posts
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it still got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable.
Which is why non-standard maps that are successful are quite impressive since there's so much stacked against them.
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On August 13 2020 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable.
introduce more than one weird map then, you can only ban so much
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Iraq16955 Posts
On August 13 2020 06:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2020 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable. introduce more than one weird map then, you can only ban so much
Good luck with that. TLMC judges are mostly pros, which is why the finalists are almost always quite standard (apart from the challenge categories), and ladder maps come from there.
If you want wilder map pools you'd need to convince Apollo to do something (which is probably the way it should be since ESL could swap out a disastrous map a lot more easily than Blizzard can swap out a ladder map).
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On August 13 2020 06:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2020 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable. introduce more than one weird map then, you can only ban so much
they already did that at the end of HotS/beginning of LotV and it was absolutely horrible so luckily they stopped doing that.
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Austria24422 Posts
Anyway vote Whirlwind please
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On August 13 2020 11:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2020 06:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 13 2020 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable. introduce more than one weird map then, you can only ban so much they already did that at the end of HotS/beginning of LotV and it was absolutely horrible so luckily they stopped doing that.
Didn't last season also have Purity and Industry? That was a weird map. Perhaps that is what let the pros actually play on Golden Wall rather than just vetoing it into oblivion?
There, just let superouman make 2 weird maps every year or so and the pros choose which one they like less, and the other one gets played and leads to fun games?
Oh, and I'm not saying Purity and Industry led to good games. Golden Wall is clearly the more entertaining of the two. Although I think Purity and Industry is prettier 
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Northern Ireland26224 Posts
On August 13 2020 18:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2020 11:09 Charoisaur wrote:On August 13 2020 06:30 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 13 2020 06:29 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Making innovative maps is a tricky business. If you stick to standard stuff at worst it ends up being quite boring and mediocre (e.g Simulacrum) and the pros mostly like 'boring' anyhow. It's not particularly difficult to make an adequate (if not necessarily good) standard map.
Whereas non-standard maps have the potential to be quite disastrous. Additionally all else being equal and even if the non-standard map is completely fine pros will always veto it over a more standard map since it forces them to play differently or simply involves more chances of being surprised by something. Zen was a rather unremarkable non-standard map, but it got vetoed a lot more than Simulacrum despite being much more balanced, simply since it made players uncomfortable. introduce more than one weird map then, you can only ban so much they already did that at the end of HotS/beginning of LotV and it was absolutely horrible so luckily they stopped doing that. Didn't last season also have Purity and Industry? That was a weird map. Perhaps that is what let the pros actually play on Golden Wall rather than just vetoing it into oblivion? There, just let superouman make 2 weird maps every year or so and the pros choose which one they like less, and the other one gets played and leads to fun games? Oh, and I'm not saying Purity and Industry led to good games. Golden Wall is clearly the more entertaining of the two. Although I think Purity and Industry is prettier
Golden Wall is the plus-sized model of maps. For years ad campaigns strived for abstract ideals of standard perfection, but a few trailblazers and nowadays every campaign has at least one model who actually has some fat reserves and we’re all adjusted to this state of affairs.
My tortuous analogies aside I wonder what the wider thoughts are on bigger pools/more vetoes. You have to play it pretty safe with the current pool size, if balance is off even with a couple of maps and players don’t like the token ‘weird’ map that’s going to make for a pretty painful season.
People seem pretty broadly positive in here when I’ve mentioned, perhaps other sections of the playerbase have different issues with map pool construction. We probably play or at least watch a hell of a lot of competitive SC so fatigue is probably more a factor there, other players maybe don’t want to have to learn a whole ton of maps to play on?
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Austria24422 Posts
I would love bigger pools with more vetoes. I think that would lead to a lot more variety at the pro level too. With so few maps, 2-3 weeks in every race has the ideal builds figured out for each map and then 1-2 months later all the cheeky spots and clever strategies have been found out too. With more maps in the pool, that would take longer, vetoes become more important in tournaments, etc.
I bet pros would hate it though and that's what prevents it.
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RIP Olli, Golden Wall over Whirlwind is a shock
Please vote KSS over CK
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Austria24422 Posts
Recency bias is crazy in this thing. Wouldn't be surprised if Golden Wall wins it now.
Anyway, CK lads. But this is easily the hardest vote in this tournament so far. Both CK and KSS are top 3 maps all time, both would be deserving winners. Can't fault anyone for voting KSS, it was easily the best HotS map. CK just edges it for me. Feels like every other map since CK is in one way or another influenced by it, that's how good it was.
Also Secret Spring needs to win worst map ever. No excuse for that dumpster fire.
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I'm suprised that Abyssal Reef did so bad.
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Well that was unexpected.
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Semi1: Really couldn't decide between CK and KSS as they are both great maps. I just went with CK by a whisker.
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Semi2: I love Daybreak, but Golden Wall for me!!! Cheering it to win the tournament!
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I am still hurt by the fact that Abyssal Reef has lost.
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On August 22 2020 01:34 swarminfestor wrote:
I am still hurt by the fact that Abyssal Reef has lost.
Same, loved that map
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/mSqfCWb.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/G3XiJ6I.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3sWaenQ.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9Hq143j.png)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/7/74/King_Sejong_Station_LE.jpg)
King Sejong Station![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/5/59/ESV_Cloud_Kingdom.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/5/5b/Slag_Pits.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/6/6c/Secret_Spring.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Svn3YLp.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qkXyqNy.png)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/4/42/Daybreak.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/8/81/Golden_Wall.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e0/Backwater_Gulch.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/f/f3/Incineration_Zone.jpg)
