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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51300 Posts
Poll: Trap vs MaruMaru Wins (36) 65% Trap Wins (19) 35% 55 total votes Your vote: Trap vs Maru (Vote): Trap Wins (Vote): Maru Wins
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France12454 Posts
6am that’s rough man, hopefully Maru wins so I don’t wake up to a bad result .
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Is the order of the maps known?
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I don't think Trap will be able to make it, but I surely hope so!
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This is going to be 4-1 for Maru and an exciting series! Trap is going to be more prepared mentally this time. Quality starcraft incoming
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I want ZVT in the final. So, I will cheer for Maru.
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Probably gonna be a really terrible series like most team mirror matches. Hope Trap wins.
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
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This is one of those matches where I have no idea what to expect. I want Maru to win, but I don't even think I'd consider him favored vs Trap at the moment. Trap might pick him apart. Or Maru might totally dominate. Or it could be a close series. Who the hell knows?
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France12454 Posts
On September 20 2019 23:38 neutralrobot wrote: This is one of those matches where I have no idea what to expect. I want Maru to win, but I don't even think I'd consider him favored vs Trap at the moment. Trap might pick him apart. Or Maru might totally dominate. Or it could be a close series. Who the hell knows?
(2807) Maru 0-0 Trap (2854) ------------------------------------- 5.26% 4-0 0-4 7.37% 10.97% 4-1 1-4 14.12% 14.29% 4-2 2-4 16.91% 14.89% 4-3 3-4 16.20% ------------------------------------- 45.41% 54.59%
Median outcome: Maru 3-4 Trap Estimated by Aligulac. Modify.
Maru is supposed to lose!
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On September 20 2019 23:55 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 23:38 neutralrobot wrote: This is one of those matches where I have no idea what to expect. I want Maru to win, but I don't even think I'd consider him favored vs Trap at the moment. Trap might pick him apart. Or Maru might totally dominate. Or it could be a close series. Who the hell knows? Maru is supposed to lose! What did aligulac say last time they played?
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On September 21 2019 00:00 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 23:55 Poopi wrote:On September 20 2019 23:38 neutralrobot wrote: This is one of those matches where I have no idea what to expect. I want Maru to win, but I don't even think I'd consider him favored vs Trap at the moment. Trap might pick him apart. Or Maru might totally dominate. Or it could be a close series. Who the hell knows? Maru is supposed to lose! What did aligulac say last time they played?
Aligulac can't tell any difference between Code S and non Code S Maru, and it's too early for the new patch to have any impact on the ratings.
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France12454 Posts
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On September 20 2019 19:36 Xain0n wrote: I don't think Trap will be able to make it, but I surely hope so! Same here
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I love aligulac but is traps vT rating slightly better than Maru s vP? and how? 4 to 3 for trap seems... wrong.
trap is prolly the best pvt, maybe that's why it's calculating that.
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France12454 Posts
Trap has a higher vT than Maru’s vP. Probably because before the patch TvP was really tough (also why there was 5 Protoss in blizzcon before Rogue qualifying for the finals).
Bear in mind that the patch should even things out so Trap is not necessarily the favorite!
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Russian Federation363 Posts
Maru already 4-0ed trap in semis, he’ll do it again.
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On September 21 2019 02:59 Poopi wrote: Trap has a higher vT than Maru’s vP. Probably because before the patch TvP was really tough (also why there was 5 Protoss in blizzcon before Rogue qualifying for the finals).
Bear in mind that the patch should even things out so Trap is not necessarily the favorite! Technical Rogue is still not qualified. But it s very unlikely, that he isn t going.
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United States97245 Posts
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I'm afraid that if I watch Maru will be guaranteed to win even more than he's already guaranteed to win
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Last time Maru won in 42m20s. I don't see any way he beats that this time at least
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Didn't Trap 3-1 Big Gabe at GSL vs TW? Artosis seems to think the opposite
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I just woke up. 6 am. Hope this is worth it. Go Maru!
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Wtf that reaper timing to jump up the ramp.
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Phoenix openings in PvT seem to have gotten quite a bit more popular this patch which is interesting.
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If those mines went off in the ramp. it would have been gg
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United States97245 Posts
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The AAM didn't even hit the zealots and none of the auto turrets got off. None of the mines were in the fight either. Maru still kills enough probes to essentially end the game
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Yeah this isn't gonna be a series, GSL is basically over lol
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big mistake by Trap, that looked painful
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That raven can't be rebuilt for quite a while.
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Yay Terran is the best race again, all is good in the starcraft world
No but seriously
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On September 21 2019 13:32 Argonauta wrote: Bcs inbnound
This isn't Fantasy playing.
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Maru seems phased by that loss, very unlike him
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those initial novas were great
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Gogo Trap. Terran imba but you can do it
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It's a shame that getting a sick surround actually kills you when playing vs mass disruptor. Splitting and running groups of units away in two or more places is impossible.
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Disruptors are really strong. Maru needed lots of liberators to in order to fight that army I think.
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Disrupters are overrated. Trap just played like a beast
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Seems like a very cheesy timing before liberators come online, Maru was def ahead in eco and infrastructure
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On September 21 2019 13:11 Fango wrote: Didn't Trap 3-1 Big Gabe at GSL vs TW? Artosis seems to think the opposite
Big Gabriel beat Trap in the team match though, 1-0, which counts as a series loss i suppose
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On September 21 2019 13:37 IshinShishi wrote: Seems like a very cheesy timing before liberators come online, Maru was def ahead in eco and infrastructure
It's a timing since libs with range shuts this down, but Trap still had the eco advantage I think.
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On September 21 2019 13:37 IshinShishi wrote: Seems like a very cheesy timing before liberators come online, Maru was def ahead in eco and infrastructure
Maru wasn’t ahead in either. He had to cancel his timing which set him back. Trap was on more bases for longer
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On September 21 2019 13:41 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 13:37 IshinShishi wrote: Seems like a very cheesy timing before liberators come online, Maru was def ahead in eco and infrastructure Maru wasn’t ahead in either. He had to cancel his timing which set him back. Trap was on more bases for longer He had the same amount of workers and faster upgrades, terran is ahead.
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On September 21 2019 13:41 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 13:37 IshinShishi wrote: Seems like a very cheesy timing before liberators come online, Maru was def ahead in eco and infrastructure Maru wasn’t ahead in either. He had to cancel his timing which set him back. Trap was on more bases for longer Protoss always gets 3rd/4th sooner. In terms of transition Maru was only going to get further ahead. Trap hit the best timing he could with mass disuptor before lib range was out
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United States97245 Posts
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Basically the worst Dorito cannons imaginable.
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Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire
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Playing a race with almost entirely microable units must be nice lol
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On September 21 2019 13:52 rfoster wrote: Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire
Because they have the best DPS of the races and if they had great AOE they would simply always be the best race?
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United States97245 Posts
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Lol why is artosis looking at an army with seven templar with storm and saying he can't push up that ramp
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On September 21 2019 13:52 rfoster wrote: Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire This is what I have been saying for many many years. If only banelings and colossi do friendly fire too
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Artosis with that perfect comedic timing lol
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7 HT fml
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On September 21 2019 13:55 5ecured wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 13:52 rfoster wrote: Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire This is what I have been saying for many many years. If only banelings and colossi do friendly fire too
Banelings with friendly fire. Ayyy
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I knew Trap would win the seconds Artosis said he could not push up the ramp.
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Maru looks hella tilted btw
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Artosis decided to quickly curse Maru in that last game, to build tension for his heroic comeback with 3 consecutive proxy rax
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On September 21 2019 13:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 13:55 5ecured wrote:On September 21 2019 13:52 rfoster wrote: Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire This is what I have been saying for many many years. If only banelings and colossi do friendly fire too Banelings with friendly fire. Ayyy
Dont bother replying to the nonsense. I mean wtf are they thinking lol
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On September 21 2019 13:56 Motlu wrote: Artosis decided to quickly curse Maru in that last game, to build tension for his heroic comeback with 3 consecutive proxy rax
I mean he only cursed him after Trap had already basically won the game, so it could be much worse.
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this is what maru lacks, Mvp would never be tricked by this
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God I love Trap. I have this whole season, and at every step hes been doubted
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i cant believe Maru fell for that
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Maru should've known better there.
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LOL I never suggested banelines with friendly fire. I do think its a bit silly that even anti armor missle has to do friendly fire.
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Oh and also how did anyone think Maru was gonna win after getting trashed by Stats (a worse PvT player than Maru)?
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On September 21 2019 14:01 Topin wrote: i cant believe Maru fell for that He guessed that Trap went stargate behind in. Guess didn't pan out
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That is why I always go blind turrets vs Protoss.
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This must be how it feels when your favourite player loses to Maru proxy rax
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remember how Maru got tricked by Patience as well? He is just not a brainy player, its mechanical outplay and not much else with Maru
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On September 21 2019 14:03 IshinShishi wrote: remember how Maru got tricked by Patience as well? He is just not a brainy player, its mechanical outplay and not much else with Maru
He is definitely brainy, just maybe more in terms of positioning than build orders and trickery (TY probably the best Terran in that realm)
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Trap is going to save us from another Maru code s trophy and his legion of fans
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On September 21 2019 14:02 Motlu wrote:This must be how it feels when your favourite player loses to Maru proxy rax mate i was having a great time watching this until you gave me vietnam flashbacks
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On September 21 2019 14:02 TentativePanda wrote: Oh and also how did anyone think Maru was gonna win after getting trashed by Stats (a worse PvT player than Maru)?
To be fair Maru usually looks extremely strong near the end of GSLs compared to almost every other tournament!
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Trap revenged against Maru since he got demolished and public-shamed by Maru 4-0 last time. Only Rogue was his friend in JinAir teamhouse. hahaha
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On September 21 2019 14:02 rfoster wrote: LOL I never suggested banelines with friendly fire. I do think its a bit silly that even anti armor missle has to do friendly fire.
Terran units need armor? Half jk lol
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This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter.
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On September 21 2019 13:55 5ecured wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 13:52 rfoster wrote: Why does everything AOE that terran has do friendly fire This is what I have been saying for many many years. If only banelings and colossi do friendly fire too or storm or disrupters!!!
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On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter.
Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru
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On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. and maru play terran dont forget dat
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On September 21 2019 14:03 IshinShishi wrote: remember how Maru got tricked by Patience as well? He is just not a brainy player, its mechanical outplay and not much else with Maru If you're the kind of protoss than does bullshit like this you'll always win games of terrans no matter how good they are. TY, INno, even Taeja lose to this kind of stuff
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On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter.
Not like a year ago. Did you remember how Serral go crushed in WESG?
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On September 21 2019 14:04 Noa Greenini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:02 TentativePanda wrote: Oh and also how did anyone think Maru was gonna win after getting trashed by Stats (a worse PvT player than Maru)? To be fair Maru usually looks extremely strong near the end of GSLs compared to almost every other tournament!
Imho he didnt. He won got out of his 2 groups in second place and then won against Ragnorok (one of my fav players, but not up to top zerg level yet) in quarters
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On September 21 2019 14:02 MockHamill wrote: That is why I always go blind turrets vs Protoss. just play like mockhamill
- Maru after terran being eternally underpowered.
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On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Have Serral play terran against Patience, sOs, herO etc. He'll lose to stupid PvT builds as well.
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On September 21 2019 14:06 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Not like a year ago. Do you remembered how Serral go crushed in WESG?
Oh yeah I remember when serral lost TWO FUCKING YEARS AGO
What a scrub amirite?
Delete your account
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On September 21 2019 14:05 Major wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. and maru play terran dont forget dat So serral is better even tho he plays the harder race? 😉
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On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru
I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway).
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how is it possible that JA allows Trap to win?
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On September 21 2019 14:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway).
I agree. But maru shows genius in the late game which is where game knowledge really shines
Serral is a late game beast too but his late game is not as dynamic imo
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Maru's just going for the long play here - fishing for more Terran buffs before Blizzcon. Masterful mind games imo.
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On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru
And Serral plays Zerg ! Its kinda well known at this point that Z>P>>T .
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On September 21 2019 14:09 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru And Serral plays Zerg ! Its kinda well known at this point that Z>P>>T .
It’s well known only to People who think bio split and stutter step is the pinnacle of mechanics
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On September 21 2019 14:09 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru And Serral plays Zerg ! Its kinda well known at this point that Z>P>>T .
Well known.... What? Fucking stupid post lol
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On September 21 2019 14:09 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway). I agree. But maru shows genius in the late game which is where game knowledge really shines Serral is a late game beast too but his late game is not as dynamic imo
You don't need genius late game when you have Broodlord/Infestors .
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On September 21 2019 14:09 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru And Serral plays Zerg ! Its kinda well known at this point that Z>P>>T . "well known" he says, like he speaks on behalf of everyone..
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On September 21 2019 14:09 Kitai wrote: Maru's just going for the long play here - fishing for more Terran buffs before Blizzcon. Masterful mind games imo.
If Terran asks for buffs they get em, you know they coming. If Zerg or Protoss win Blizzcon the game is imba
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On September 21 2019 14:09 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway). I agree. But maru shows genius in the late game which is where game knowledge really shines Serral is a late game beast too but his late game is not as dynamic imo
LOL Serral lategame is not as dynamic? Someone please tell me Serrals winrate against any race in a 15+ min game
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On September 21 2019 14:12 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:09 Kitai wrote: Maru's just going for the long play here - fishing for more Terran buffs before Blizzcon. Masterful mind games imo. If Terran asks for buffs they get em, you know they coming. If Zerg or Protoss win Blizzcon the game is imba
Amazing that you posted that literally like 30 seconds after yelling at someone else for making a generalization lol.
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On September 21 2019 14:14 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:09 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway). I agree. But maru shows genius in the late game which is where game knowledge really shines Serral is a late game beast too but his late game is not as dynamic imo LOL Serral lategame is not as dynamic? Someone please tell me Serrals winrate against any race in a 15+ min game Let's be honest Serral doesn't need exactly need genius moves to win in the lategame. He said himself if you play properly as Z you won't lose
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On September 21 2019 14:14 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:12 TentativePanda wrote:On September 21 2019 14:09 Kitai wrote: Maru's just going for the long play here - fishing for more Terran buffs before Blizzcon. Masterful mind games imo. If Terran asks for buffs they get em, you know they coming. If Zerg or Protoss win Blizzcon the game is imba Amazing that you posted that literally like 30 seconds after yelling at someone else for making a generalization lol.
That was clearly a hyperbole lol. Though I do think Terran has been the most catered to race in brood war + sc2 history (on average)
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On September 21 2019 14:15 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:14 TentativePanda wrote:On September 21 2019 14:09 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:08 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 21 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote:On September 21 2019 14:04 MockHamill wrote: This is why I think Serral is better than Maru. Both have great mechanics but Serral is just smarter. Serral isn’t smarter. Serral relies on his mechanics more than maru I dunno about that. Sometimes Maru does some pretty brain dead and predictable things especially when he thinks his opponent is way worse. Like he's proxy 2-rax reapered TIME in over 50% of the games they've played, and is somehow still surprised when he's blind countered (though his mechanics help him win anyway). I agree. But maru shows genius in the late game which is where game knowledge really shines Serral is a late game beast too but his late game is not as dynamic imo LOL Serral lategame is not as dynamic? Someone please tell me Serrals winrate against any race in a 15+ min game Let's be honest Serral doesn't need exactly need genius moves to win in the lategame. He said himself if you play properly as Z you won't lose
Good try changing perfectly to properly. Good luck playing a game with an infinite skill ceiling perfectly ha
Also, maybe he feels that way because hes so comfortable in the lategame because hes the best?
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uh oh. More impossible to engage comments from Artosis and Tasteless.
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Uuuh those zealots warp-ins are the most dangerous things in the world
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On September 21 2019 14:21 ZigguratOfUr wrote: uh oh. More impossible to engage comments from Artosis and Tasteless.
Trap will have to wai-
GEEGEE TRAP WINS AND HEADS TO THE FINALS
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that fight was Terran wet dreams
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That engagement looked really ugly for Trap with so many disruptors/hts getting caught, but it didn't turn out that badly all things considered.
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Always love to see how aggressively Trap gets to like 6+ bases
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that terran can't micro at all
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1 sec you look away man, this kind of play demands way too much attention from terran
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Special would have won by now
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These fights with a ton of disruptors and the new EMP are all looking really ugly with units somewhat uncoordinated all over the place. I'd expect players to get much better at it in the coming months.
Makes for a pretty fun game though.
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Why no liberators from maru?
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GG. In the end it was harass and not the big fights that told the story.
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what a game. congrats trap.
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Good play by Trap! He deserves to be in the Finals.
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wow 4-1 !! I was not expecting this. GG Trap. not all days you get to beat the best player of the world.
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Trap got manhandled into 1 sec Maru wasnt looking at his army and got nuked without proper warning (aka disruptor ball), lost 25 supply and it went to shit from there.
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On September 21 2019 14:33 Argonauta wrote: wow 4-1 !! I was not expecting this. GG Trap. not all days you get to beat the best player of the world. yeah he'll have to wait to see if he meets serral at blizzcon. Grats!
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On September 21 2019 14:32 SamirDuran wrote: Why no liberators from maru?
Probably because they kept on trading armies. If they'd stayed almost maxed out for a while I'm sure he would've transitioned.
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Extremely impressed by trap
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On September 21 2019 14:33 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:33 Argonauta wrote: wow 4-1 !! I was not expecting this. GG Trap. not all days you get to beat the best player of the world. yeah he'll have to wait to see if he meets serral at blizzcon. Grats!
No need, Trap can prove also if his ZvP is top notch by playing rogue in the finals.
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Maru is good but overrated. When the proxy meta got figured out his weakness in decision making became easier to spot.
If he plays like he is no threat to Serral.
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Maru took some of the best engagements I've ever seen vs what Trap had. Any other terran would have been crushed by that many disruptor/storm/colossus. Shame not watching your army for one second is GG against disruptorrs.
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On September 21 2019 14:36 MockHamill wrote: Maru is good but overrated. When the proxy meta got figured out his weakness in decision making became easier to spot. He won two GSL seasons before the proxy meta, and won the season directly after it stopped being a thing
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On September 21 2019 14:36 MockHamill wrote: Maru is good but overrated. When the proxy meta got figured out his weakness in decision making became easier to spot.
If he plays like he is no threat to Serral. I'ds still easily bet on Maru over Serral, this series looked like yet another series where a teammate watched 500 replays of Maru and knew every single move before the game even started, if anything Trap's play looked more desperate than Maru's, always trying to smother him or else.
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I'm finally convinced that Trap is an elite player (I resisted the idea before). His builds were super crisp and he had excellent control, harrassment, army placement, and map awareness. Lastly, his cheese build made me hate him a little bit as a person - a hallmark of a good Protoss player.
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United States32432 Posts
I was entertained!
Also, quite interested in seeing a top-level Korean PvZ ahead of BlizzCon season just for information reasons.
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I liquibetted on Trap based on his PvT (his best MU) rating and Maru's TvP rating (his worst MU). Aligulac wins again.
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Cool match, Trap played so much better than Maru, I wasn't expecting that but staying at the top, top for very long is something few can do. Top 4 finish is still very good!
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GSL artosis can't be done
and more clips + Show Spoiler +GSL Artosis fireman terran GSL Trap interview GSL PVT MONSTER GSL is Trap a friend GSL en taro bald guy signs GSL signs GSL andy will rip you apart
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This is the best outcome, and it makes for an excellent final
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So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts.
The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe.
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On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was.
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On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was.
There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch...
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Cure iirc has decent TvP relative to his other matchups.
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On September 21 2019 14:59 ASCandLoLFan wrote: Cure iirc has decent TvP relative to his other matchups. Yes, within the top10 players, he does have the smallest gap betwen best and worst MU (40 pts). Serral currently has the second smallest gap (69 pts).
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On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe.
Funy and if you look at the matches. He is basically winning and losing vs Stats and Trap.
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On September 21 2019 15:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Funy and if you look at the matches. He is basically winning and losing vs Stats and Trap.
He lost a lot of points in recent history. That 0-3 against Stats. And although he beat Super and Neeb 2-1, he didn't really gain pts, because those are much lower rated players. In fact, he probably lost significant pts from losing one map to Super.
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On September 21 2019 15:11 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 15:04 Argonauta wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Funy and if you look at the matches. He is basically winning and losing vs Stats and Trap. He lost a lot of points in recent history. That 0-3 against Stats. And although he beat Super and Neeb 2-1, he didn't really gain pts, because those are much lower rated players. In fact, he probably lost significant pts from losing one map to Super.
Neeb lower rated player?
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if Trap wins he will be tied in points with Dark lol
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On September 21 2019 15:32 AzAlexZ wrote: if Trap wins he will be tied in points with Dark lol
Speaking about points: although Liquipedia's portal says it's still possible for Zest, Solar and PartinG to qualify, they are more than 1500 points away from Stats' 8th place so I guess Blizzcon is over for them.
Dear, TY, Hurricane, RagnaroK and GuMiGod are still in the battle!
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Too bad — was hoping for TvZ final
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Really surprised about the lack of liberators against disruptors for maru. And there was next to none drop play during the whole series? I dunno, maybe Maru played himself as he tried to prepare for a teammate.
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On September 21 2019 15:53 Koivusto wrote: Really surprised about the lack of liberators against disruptors for maru. And there was next to none drop play during the whole series? I dunno, maybe Maru played himself as he tried to prepare for a teammate.
Trap gave him no room
Trap played ridiculously good. I didn't think I'd ever see someone play Protoss better than stats in LotV
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On September 21 2019 15:43 Serimek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 15:32 AzAlexZ wrote: if Trap wins he will be tied in points with Dark lol Speaking about points: although Liquipedia's portal says it's still possible for Zest, Solar and PartinG to qualify, they are more than 1500 points away from Stats' 8th place so I guess Blizzcon is over for them. Dear, TY, Hurricane, RagnaroK and GuMiGod are still in the battle!
Don't forget we're in a slightly unusual situation where we're unsure that Classic is actually going, which is also why he's shaded in yellow rather than green. He easily has enough points to qualify 100%. If he doesn't go, it's likely the seed will be given to the #9 player. All of the people you mentioned could still theoretically end up 9th.
Speaking of, the only way for Rogue to NOT go to Blizzcon is:
- Loses finals - Loses first round of ST2 - herO & Stats both at least reach the semi-finals in ST2 - Dear wins ST2 - Classic goes to Blizzcon
I'm feeling pretty good about his chances.
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Serral would never lose 4-1.
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On September 21 2019 16:24 Odoakar wrote: Serral would never lose 4-1.
Though it's extremely unlikely, anything is possible.
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On September 21 2019 16:23 Neemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 15:43 Serimek wrote:On September 21 2019 15:32 AzAlexZ wrote: if Trap wins he will be tied in points with Dark lol Speaking about points: although Liquipedia's portal says it's still possible for Zest, Solar and PartinG to qualify, they are more than 1500 points away from Stats' 8th place so I guess Blizzcon is over for them. Dear, TY, Hurricane, RagnaroK and GuMiGod are still in the battle! Don't forget we're in a slightly unusual situation where we're unsure that Classic is actually going, which is also why he's shaded in yellow rather than green. He easily has enough points to qualify 100%. If he doesn't go, it's likely the seed will be given to the #9 player. All of the people you mentioned could still theoretically end up 9th. Speaking of, the only way for Rogue to NOT go to Blizzcon is: - Loses finals - Loses first round of ST2 - herO & Stats both at least reach the semi-finals in ST2 - Dear wins ST2 - Classic goes to Blizzcon I'm feeling pretty good about his chances.
I forgot about that, thank you.
Rouge will be there 99%.
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Wtf, I just wake up and I didn't expect this at all !
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
On September 21 2019 14:39 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:36 MockHamill wrote: Maru is good but overrated. When the proxy meta got figured out his weakness in decision making became easier to spot.
If he plays like he is no threat to Serral. I'ds still easily beat on Maru over Serral, this series looked like yet another series where a teammate watched 500 replays of Maru and knew every single move before the game even started, if anything Trap's play looked more desperate than Maru's, always trying to smother him or else. Why is it every time Maru loses to a team mate that comes out? It’s a huge part of the game, coming up with strategies and whatnot.
That aside I don’t see how Trap’s play was desperate at all. Aggressive sure, but sensibly so. Got his tech up smoothly, took basically no damage to anything outside of the first game, constantly out on the map and harassing while out-expanding Maru basically every game.
For Maru specifically that’s 100% how I would play if I wasn’t trash, seems sensible. Keep trading and forcing him to continually replenish bio and sprinkle in ghosts vs sitting back and letting Maru get a real lategame comp.
Playing a passive macro game and letting Maru do what he wants and you lose, it we saw that season one.
PvT clinic really, IMO the best series I’ve seen this year in that regard. Trap did basically everything extremely well
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... That indeed is an ouch. Thinking about it I do think Special’s vP is his best matchup though
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France12454 Posts
4-1 seriously? Where is the guy boasting that Protoss can’t win again because of the new emp?... This is disgusting.
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Back to back finals! Can we start calling Trap a bonjwa now? It's delusional to deny that he is at this point.
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On September 21 2019 17:09 Charoisaur wrote: Back to back finals! Can we start calling Trap a bonjwa now? It's delusional to deny that he is at this point. well, he pwned Maru who is the best player who ever lived or will live, in a preparation tournament, so yeah, he's basically just reached god-tier today
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Well, guess we don't get a TvZ finals
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On September 21 2019 16:24 Odoakar wrote: Serral would never lose 4-1.
He first has to play
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On September 21 2019 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 17:09 Charoisaur wrote: Back to back finals! Can we start calling Trap a bonjwa now? It's delusional to deny that he is at this point. well, he pwned Maru who is the best player who ever lived or will live, in a preparation tournament, so yeah, he's basically just reached god-tier today After losing 1-3—in which only 2 games were close, and one of them was the game he won—to Serral. His PvZ rating is actually quite low (2600). I'm predicting a 4-2 win for Rogue.
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wait hold on, i thought after Rogue won vs Dark, Maru basically guaranteed himself a 5th GSL title? Where did the math go wrong?!
on a serious note, i'm really happy for a pvz finals. Trap showed really nice games vs Serral and Rogue seems to be finally doing fine this season!
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On September 21 2019 16:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... That indeed is an ouch. Thinking about it I do think Special’s vP is his best matchup though
It's definitely the match-up where he's exceeded expectations the most often. He was the only person to stop Neeb in WCS in 2017, then he did it again this year. He also beat Stats & Classic in the group stages of Blizzcon, and just went 3-3 in combined map score against Classic in GSL vs. the World. He's a serious opponent for any Protoss, especially when he gets time to prepare. He hasn't built up a similar reputation in his other two match-ups
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Did Trap win?
I watched one game and Trap got bodied and I turned it off and then he wins in the end?
I knew my viewership was cursed...
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Coincidentally, Trap was also the last player to beat Maru in a bo7 or more(5-3, Onpoong Ultimate Battle #11 in January 2018), and he is the one who could stop Maru in Code S playoffs after more than two years(the last was Gumiho 4-2 and it was S2 2017).
I am so glad that Trap won, he truly became a top player in 2019(the doubters labeled him as a patchtoss after the Protoss Spring...he's in a Code S final again now); I would love to see Trap win Code S as a reward to the insane consistency he had this year, not to mention eight seasons have past since we had our last Protoss champion.
On a side note, Trap made sure the G5L trophy stays where it is meant to be(just outside of Mvp's grasp), and avoided(for now, at least) TL's forum to be swarmed by Maru fans declaring him GOAT and savior of Sc2.
Concerning TvP on Aligulac: Protoss are lagging behind, every matchup has its lowest scores vP on average; the highest Protoss is just above 2700 while there are multiple Zerg and Terran player beyond 2800, ratings in TvP being lower than in TvZ is just a logical consequence. To say anything about balance one should offset the rating differential, I guess.
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I would like maru to win but trap deserved it after demolishing maru and giving a blueprint on how to beat the new emp
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
On September 21 2019 15:57 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 15:53 Koivusto wrote: Really surprised about the lack of liberators against disruptors for maru. And there was next to none drop play during the whole series? I dunno, maybe Maru played himself as he tried to prepare for a teammate. Trap gave him no room Trap played ridiculously good. I didn't think I'd ever see someone play Protoss better than stats in LotV I do think it’s maybe the best I’ve seen for quite some time. Especially with the luxury of watching FPVs of this series too
It was this weird synthesis of almost herO levels of aggression, while being resolutely solid defensively and transitioning really well too.
The finals could be weird, Rogue looked ropey against Zest to say the least, but equally I feel it’s extremely hard to kill elite Zergs in a bo7 in the current meta. They seem to have got wiser to many of the pages in the great Protoss book of Bullshit and the ovie speed cost buff makes their scouting that bit harder to bluff.
Trap even against Maru can have his various builds and openers with the goal of getting him into a macro game in good shape, vs Zergs you cannot really approach it like that.
Despite the loss I thought he played pretty well against Dark last finals so he’s not a million miles away anyway. Rogue maybe showed some Ro4 nerves against Zest having broken his ceiling, perhaps his first final may have that be a factor.
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Russian Federation40169 Posts
PvZ teamkill in a grand final?
Did we ever have a good final with such premise?
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After one and a half games that looked like a certain stomping. Have no idea what Trap was thinking but that was some really bad play and you gotta wonder why he ever built a phoenix when his usage of them was so poor. But then he got himself together and played a great series after. Only a few mistakes here and there but overall great strategic approaches and good engagements. Very nice team kill too. Good luck in the finals to Trap.
Maru on the other hand is clearly very far from top form. That has to be some of the worst disruptor splits I have seen from him. At the lack of liberators was puzzling. Overall another Code S season of underwhelming play from him (although it was obviously better than season 2)v
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Canada8747 Posts
Trap!!!
Should be a good match up in the final for him, if he can keep his cool
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On September 21 2019 20:13 lolfail9001 wrote: PvZ teamkill in a grand final?
Did we ever have a good final with such premise? For Code S, Rogue vs Trap is just the 3rd team kill PvZ finals. It follows in the footsteps of DRG vs Genius and Classic vs soO.
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Who remembers the PvZ teamkill between Genius and DRG? Hoping for a better series.
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Trap hasn't beaten Rogue in the last twelve months while PvZ appears to be slightly Zerg favored and it's probably Rogue's best matchup; also, Rogue, lost only four bo7+ in his whole career, none of it offline.
Trap is the underdog, but he's been playing extremely well and teamkills are indeed a greater source of upset. GO TRAP!
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On September 21 2019 18:24 Xain0n wrote: Coincidentally, Trap was also the last player to beat Maru in a bo7 or more(5-3, Onpoong Ultimate Battle #11 in January 2018), and he is the one who could stop Maru in Code S playoffs after more than two years(the last was Gumiho 4-2 and it was S2 2017).
I am so glad that Trap won, he truly became a top player in 2019(the doubters labeled him as a patchtoss after the Protoss Spring...he's in a Code S final again now); I would love to see Trap win Code S as a reward to the insane consistency he had this year, not to mention eight seasons have past since we had our last Protoss champion.
On a side note, Trap made sure the G5L trophy stays where it is meant to be(just outside of Mvp's grasp), and avoided(for now, at least) TL's forum to be swarmed by Maru fans declaring him GOAT and savior of Sc2.
Concerning TvP on Aligulac: Protoss are lagging behind, every matchup has its lowest scores vP on average; the highest Protoss is just above 2700 while there are multiple Zerg and Terran player beyond 2800, ratings in TvP being lower than in TvZ is just a logical consequence. To say anything about balance one should offset the rating differential, I guess.
That seems to be more a result of PvZ where zerg are doing more than fine, unless a new playstyle appears as a result of the new patch I suspect TvP ratings to stay the same.
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Maru played very well against disruptors in the last game, but after the initial manhandle of Trap and getting ahead, he unfortunately lost 25 supply when he wasnt looking for 1 second and then Trap just kept attacking giving him no time to recover.
The entire series Trap pounced on any advantage he had or could force and kept going till either him or Maru died, that almost cost him the last game which was the one he was ahead the most eco-wise, but Maru didnt capitalize (90 vs 50 army supply at one point) and went back to his base, his play seemed either too cautious or too slow, I can't tell.
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Canada8747 Posts
On September 21 2019 21:17 sparklyresidue wrote: Who remembers the PvZ teamkill between Genius and DRG? Hoping for a better series.
Classic vs soO was a terrible one too
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On September 21 2019 22:48 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 21:17 sparklyresidue wrote: Who remembers the PvZ teamkill between Genius and DRG? Hoping for a better series. Classic vs soO was a terrible one too
Aside soO vs Zest and Parting vs Life was there any good zvp in finals ? July vs Mc was terrible, inca vs nestea might be the worst ever, soO vs Dear wasn't great either...
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On September 21 2019 23:06 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 22:48 Nakajin wrote:On September 21 2019 21:17 sparklyresidue wrote: Who remembers the PvZ teamkill between Genius and DRG? Hoping for a better series. Classic vs soO was a terrible one too Aside soO vs Zest and Parting vs Life was there any good zvp in finals ? July vs Mc was terrible, inca vs nestea might be the worst ever, soO vs Dear wasn't great either... Most GSL finals aren't good regardless of the match-up.
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On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03%
Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments
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Torn between wanting Trap to win because he deserves it or lose so another kong dynasty is born.
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On September 21 2019 23:49 dysenterymd wrote: Torn between wanting Trap to win because he deserves it or lose so another kong dynasty is born.
Nah only Zergs and marineking can be kongs.
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That series felt like Trap always knew exactly what timings Maru was going to come with.
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On September 21 2019 19:13 SamirDuran wrote: I would like maru to win but trap deserved it after demolishing maru and giving a blueprint on how to beat the new emp
How to beat the new EMP: play better and win before EMP upgrade finishes
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On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments
That's assuming a static balance state though. Aligulac has a ton of inertia to its ratings; even if the recent patch had made TvP slightly terran favoured it would take ages before the ratings fully reflected this.
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On September 22 2019 00:08 TentativePanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 19:13 SamirDuran wrote: I would like maru to win but trap deserved it after demolishing maru and giving a blueprint on how to beat the new emp How to beat the new EMP: play better and win before EMP upgrade finishes no? disruptors
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On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better
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On September 22 2019 00:24 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 00:08 TentativePanda wrote:On September 21 2019 19:13 SamirDuran wrote: I would like maru to win but trap deserved it after demolishing maru and giving a blueprint on how to beat the new emp How to beat the new EMP: play better and win before EMP upgrade finishes no? disruptors
Let’s think through this. Before the EMP buff, disrupters were not any more common than other Protoss tech paths. Because they weren’t always the best option. All emp did was force Protoss down that tech path because it’s the only one that can reasonably fight against ghosts.
So first thing to note is that disrupters didn’t get any better, they just got more important.
Second thing to note is that Trap made sure to either not let Maru get to upgrade EMP or made sure to have him in a really bad position by the time is was completed.
So yes, he chose the right tech path for when he wanted to close the game before EMP upgrade (no disruptors) and for when he wanted to be in an advantageous position for when EMP upgrade was done (disruptors)
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On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better
I've always hated that argument. If you don't assume that the pool of players are roughly equal in strength (of course individuals may be outliers) there's no way to do balance. In fact even if they aren't equal in strength you should pretend they are and balance accordingly. Who cares if the zerg pool of players is more skilled by some unmeasurable magical metric--I still don't want ZvZs all the time.
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On September 22 2019 00:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better I've always hated that argument. If you don't assume that the pool of players are roughly equal in strength (of course individuals may be outliers) there's no way to do balance. In fact even if they aren't equal in strength you should pretend they are and balance accordingly. Who cares if the zerg pool of players is more skilled by some unmeasurable magical metric--I still don't want ZvZs all the time. Also I remember during GOMTvT terran players say7ng that terrans are just better and Zerg and Protoss rightfully calling bullshit on that. Why is it different when terran is underperforming/protoss is overperforming?
You can defend any imbalance by saying "race x has just better playera".
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Trap made a lot of things look imba during that series, but truthfully he just kept hitting perfect timings against what Maru had and at the stage he was at, just really good preparation from Trap
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
On September 22 2019 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 00:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better I've always hated that argument. If you don't assume that the pool of players are roughly equal in strength (of course individuals may be outliers) there's no way to do balance. In fact even if they aren't equal in strength you should pretend they are and balance accordingly. Who cares if the zerg pool of players is more skilled by some unmeasurable magical metric--I still don't want ZvZs all the time. Also I remember during GOMTvT terran players say7ng that terrans are just better and Zerg and Protoss rightfully calling bullshit on that. Why is it different when terran is underperforming/protoss is overperforming? You can defend any imbalance by saying "race x has just better playera". There are times when it’s actually true though, conceivably and especially in such a small pool as S class Koreans.
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On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better He said the top 20 terrans in aligulac. That's basically every pro/semi pro terran player.
The 20 best players all collectively having TvP as their worst or middle matchup is not a small sample size btw. Like I said, the odds are 0.03%.
You can tell something's too small a sample size if the supposedly outrageous result is reasonable to happen under normal circumstances. 0.03% is not reasonable.
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seems like maru's having hard time with adapting during the series and trap prepared better
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On September 22 2019 05:19 NotSoHappy wrote: seems like maru's having hard time with adapting during the series and trap prepared better he might've won if he didn't assume collossi after scanning 2 robo and a bay in game (he immediately queued vikings) and the dt game, Maru oddly not saving scans. he usually reads these type of situations well and plays safe, but he succumbed to this. against dts even the gods struggle in vain
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On September 22 2019 04:07 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On September 22 2019 00:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better I've always hated that argument. If you don't assume that the pool of players are roughly equal in strength (of course individuals may be outliers) there's no way to do balance. In fact even if they aren't equal in strength you should pretend they are and balance accordingly. Who cares if the zerg pool of players is more skilled by some unmeasurable magical metric--I still don't want ZvZs all the time. Also I remember during GOMTvT terran players say7ng that terrans are just better and Zerg and Protoss rightfully calling bullshit on that. Why is it different when terran is underperforming/protoss is overperforming? You can defend any imbalance by saying "race x has just better playera". There are times when it’s actually true though, conceivably and especially in such a small pool as S class Koreans. Possibly but how do you prove it? At that point it's just your personal opinion.
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On September 22 2019 04:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better He said the top 20 terrans in aligulac. That's basically every pro/semi pro terran player. The 20 best players all collectively having TvP as their worst or middle matchup is not a small sample size btw. Like I said, the odds are 0.03%. You can tell something's too small a sample size if the supposedly outrageous result is reasonable to happen under normal circumstances. 0.03% is not reasonable.
As I mentioned earlier those ratings have a ton of inertia especially since some top players don't play online much. The most recent patch would barely register in those ratings (and players don't adapt instantly to a patch).
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On September 22 2019 04:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better He said the top 20 terrans in aligulac. That's basically every pro/semi pro terran player. The 20 best players all collectively having TvP as their worst or middle matchup is not a small sample size btw. Like I said, the odds are 0.03%. You can tell something's too small a sample size if the supposedly outrageous result is reasonable to happen under normal circumstances. 0.03% is not reasonable. we need a bit more time to see how the patch effects things.
that may unfortunately mean that after some months tvp is still in a state, but we can't go about things in a rushed manner in case things become broken down the line.
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On September 22 2019 06:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 04:45 Fango wrote:On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better He said the top 20 terrans in aligulac. That's basically every pro/semi pro terran player. The 20 best players all collectively having TvP as their worst or middle matchup is not a small sample size btw. Like I said, the odds are 0.03%. You can tell something's too small a sample size if the supposedly outrageous result is reasonable to happen under normal circumstances. 0.03% is not reasonable. As I mentioned earlier those ratings have a ton of inertia especially since some top players don't play online much. The most recent patch would barely register in those ratings (and players don't adapt instantly to a patch).
And, Fango, it's hard to have higher rating against Protoss when their average ranking is significantly lower than Zerg. Balance has something to do with that, but the correlation is waaay looser than you think.
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
On September 22 2019 06:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2019 04:07 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 22 2019 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On September 22 2019 00:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 22 2019 00:26 brickrd wrote:On September 21 2019 23:45 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:58 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 21 2019 14:52 Fango wrote:On September 21 2019 14:50 tigon_ridge wrote:So after this tournament ends, it will be revealed that the difference between Maru's worst MU and his best MU is literally 400 pts. The biggest gap in a player's MUs in the history of the universe. Is there a single terran that doesn't have TvP drastically lower than their other two matchups? I don't know but I'd be shocked if there was. There isn't a single top20 Terran that has TvP as their best MU, according to their ratings. Ouch... Assuming a balanced state the odds of this happening are 0.03% Sometimes I wish Maru wasn't a thing so people would see how just badly terran does in these tournaments invoking probability but no mention of the fact that the entire korean scene is a meaninglessly small sample size and that it's easily statistically possible the protoss players are actually simply better I've always hated that argument. If you don't assume that the pool of players are roughly equal in strength (of course individuals may be outliers) there's no way to do balance. In fact even if they aren't equal in strength you should pretend they are and balance accordingly. Who cares if the zerg pool of players is more skilled by some unmeasurable magical metric--I still don't want ZvZs all the time. Also I remember during GOMTvT terran players say7ng that terrans are just better and Zerg and Protoss rightfully calling bullshit on that. Why is it different when terran is underperforming/protoss is overperforming? You can defend any imbalance by saying "race x has just better playera". There are times when it’s actually true though, conceivably and especially in such a small pool as S class Koreans. Possibly but how do you prove it? At that point it's just your personal opinion. *Inserts Big Lebowski gif*
It would be difficult to prove conclusively for sure, it’s a lot easier to do in retrospect.
If a cohort of players of a race produced results they weren’t producing before or after a period considered imbalanced, while not conclusive of anything, it’s probably likely that that period probably didn’t have the best balance.
Looking at the TL community GOAT tournament, the current cohort of S class Protoss players in Korea all placed pretty highly up in that, so that segment of the community does feel a lot of the current crop are at least historically great players. That doesn’t necessarily mean people think they are currently though.
To add yet more fun complexity, ‘race x just has better players’ doesn’t even exist as a straight counter to imbalance, Protoss can have the best crop of players and be unbalanced at the same time.
‘Tis a fun rabbit hole to go down haha.
It does at least appear that Super Tournament was a bit of an anomaly, where folks who hadn’t really made good runs before were crushing it.
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Northern Ireland20509 Posts
Also as an aside there’s so much stylistic variation between Protoss players that it must be a nightmare to face a bunch in succession. From devotees of the Big Protoss Book of Bullshit to a reactive macro player like Stats and everything in between.
Yes I know Protoss can be obnoxious, that specific thing I do like about the race, players give it their own flavour.
Sure Terrans and Zergs don’t all play the same, far from it but there is more similarity than with the Protoss contingent.
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TvP is still toss favored, but toss have it worse with ZvP. Only race that doesn't have a "bad" matchup atm is Zerg. Could be a map issue, balance issue, or both.
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On September 22 2019 23:06 Wombat_NI wrote: Also as an aside there’s so much stylistic variation between Protoss players that it must be a nightmare to face a bunch in succession. From devotees of the Big Protoss Book of Bullshit to a reactive macro player like Stats and everything in between.
Yes I know Protoss can be obnoxious, that specific thing I do like about the race, players give it their own flavour.
I think thats a big portion too, lastest patches made Terran a very 1 dimensional race: Reaper FE, survive the early game, 2 base push, pray to do enough damage to win from there.
The EMP buff and the stim buff didn't really did much to change, EMP gives a better lategame yeah but the stim buff just makes terran even more 1 dimensional and being so predictable really hurts, protoss has so many choices compared to terran that it can be a big weakness when it comes to the top of the top.
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unexpected result for sure but normally dude wouldve handled late game just fine without focusing around new EMP build.and its been showed dat this build clearly has some weaknesses
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