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On August 09 2017 01:37 feardragon wrote:
This is so sick. Every month of Shoutcraft has the same prizepool as a season of WCS Challenger now I believe. Taking 2 maps is the equivalent of getting group stage 3 in prize money at a premier event. So sick.
Boosting the challenger prize pool with the warchest next is the most important investment imo.
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On August 09 2017 01:28 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 01:08 Kafka777 wrote:
This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players.
Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about. What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000? If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this
In terms of building and sustaining the scene, there isn't much purpose. It gives more money to the players who are already pretty successful and doesn't really bring in more viewers. (I doubt anyone is going to not watch the global finals because the champion only wins $200k but decide it is worth their time if they win $300k)
While SHOUTcraft Kings is a great tournament, the players who profit are largely the ones who are already making money in pretty much every tournament they enter. Does that build and sustain the scene?
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Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
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[quote]What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000?
If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this[/quote
The goal of increasing Blizzcon prizepool is rather different. This is the most significant SC2 event of the year, a goal for all pro and aspiring pro players. Raising the prize pool to historical record levels does indeed attract more attention from media, viewers and winning could be a life changer for the winner.
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On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:
Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it.
INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
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On August 09 2017 02:02 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:
Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it. INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously.
I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance?
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SHOUTcraft Kings has paid out $52,500. By my count and evaluation of players, only around $13,000 of that has been to players who are mid-tier or lower in their scene.
Non-Koreans have made $13,600.
Non-Koreans and mid-tier and lower Koreans have made $20,900.
By that last measure, I suppose you could say that some of the top pros haven't been taking it seriously, but to really make that statement, you'd have to go through and look at what maps they played on against which players because I don't think it is fair to say that a top-tier pro losing to a mid-tier pro on a map they'd ban out in any tournament because it is super favoring their opponent.
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On August 09 2017 02:05 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 02:02 Boggyb wrote:On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:
Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it. INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously. I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance?
This never happened. This was Clan Wars years ago and had nothing to do with kings at all
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Lemme put it this way. Kings has paid the rent of more pro gamers in the last year than pretty much any other tournament and being able to do that is damn important to the sustainability of this scene., more so in my mind than giant end of year prizes.
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On August 09 2017 02:38 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 02:05 207aicila wrote:On August 09 2017 02:02 Boggyb wrote:On August 09 2017 01:54 207aicila wrote:
Eh I don't know, I think boosting the prizepool for Kings actually benefits it more than it would a traditional premier event. Because it provides even more incentive than before for some of the higher level pros to actually take it seriously and focus, and not just treat it as another unimportant online tournament where they just show up and get sniped by a player who is worse on paper but who actually gives a shit and feels the hunger.
So I'm for it. INnoVation was going to forfeit one of the IEM Katowice qualifiers to play in SHOUTcraft Kings if he needed to. You can't say that's the pros not taking it seriously. I didn't say that no one is taking it seriously, or even that many of them aren't, but some very clearly did not. Remember Soulkey even got banned because he couldn't be bothered to show up (twice I think? might be wrong) despite agreeing to in advance? This never happened. This was Clan Wars years ago and had nothing to do with kings at all
That's entirely my bad then. Still, good that it won't/can't go that road anymore which justifies the extra investment I think.
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On August 09 2017 01:28 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 01:08 Kafka777 wrote:
This is indeed very nice. Only I do not see the value added by the extra 5000 per month here. Yes, the players will receive some more cash in "the most unfair" system of playing sc2 (to a significant degree the host decides who wins by selecting opponents and map selection available only to winner). I do not think this will bring in more viewers or better players.
Instead this funds could be used to create additional online/offline tournaments of this sort. So I do have a feeling of squandering Warchest money in this, unless there is something I do not know about. What is the purpose in raising the blizzcon prizepool by $200,000? If you have the answer to that, then you have the answer to this
You want to give sOs money?
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How can people complain about this event getting more money?
For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings.
P.S.: The bunny in the video is hilarious.
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That intro video is glorious
On August 09 2017 01:40 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 01:37 feardragon wrote:
This is so sick. Every month of Shoutcraft has the same prizepool as a season of WCS Challenger now I believe. Taking 2 maps is the equivalent of getting group stage 3 in prize money at a premier event. So sick. Boosting the challenger prize pool with the warchest next is the most important investment imo.
From what was going on in Chinese scene in the past few years, increasing prize pool to benefit those manage to enter challenger but unable to progress far is nice in sustaining players, but not necessarily helps them to be more competitive.
In fact for a long time it only makes old players enjoy free prize money with minimal effort. So it can be a double-edged sword.
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On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:How can people complain about this event getting more money?
Does this event getting more money make the event better? Maybe if it lures even more of the top Koreans who've previously only played once or twice (e.g. most of the Jin Air players), but then that means there are fewer mid-tier players with a chance to win money.
On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings.
It isn't artificially throwing out money when they promise to use a percentage of warchest sales on tournaments.
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On August 09 2017 06:43 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:How can people complain about this event getting more money? Does this event getting more money make the event better? Maybe if it lures even more of the top Koreans who've previously only played once or twice (e.g. most of the Jin Air players), but then that means there are fewer mid-tier players with a chance to win money. Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 04:36 DSh1 wrote:For all of those who say Blizzard should support these ominous "low/midtier" players. I think if the only way to have a pro scene is by Blizzard artificially throwing out money, then I'd rather not have a pro scene at all. It is much better if they organize fun events like Shoutcraft Kings. It isn't artificially throwing out money when they promise to use a percentage of warchest sales on tournaments.
Quite. Its the opposite of artificially throwing money at it. They made X dollars by selling a thing in SC2 and part of that audience is one that's been kept interested by our events and others. Now they are diverting Y dollars of what they made to pump up an event that was already the most cost-efficient thing they run.
The value Kings provides to SC2 and Blizzard for the relatively tiny amount of money it costs to run is pretty extreme. It cost more to run Kings at Blizzcon for 2 hours than it did to run 6 months of Kings online. Thats the massive divide between online events and offline events in terms of cost. The future of SC2 is a robust online scene, because it is so cost-efficient and even when you double the money, Kings is still one of the most cost-efficient events on a $/viewer ratio that exists.
In terms of does the extra money help? It ups the stakes for viewers to some extent. There's diminishing returns there sure. Will it boost the viewership? Probably not much no. What it does do though is provide 21 players a shot at, in just a few short maps, making their entire rent for the month. Is that a good thing for the scene? Absolutely it is. We are literally enabling pro-gamers to continue to be pro-gamers through a very accessible tournament that invites a big variety of different players to it.
Consider we've had over 60 different players in Kings up to this point. If you look at Aligulac SC2 has maybe, 150 tournament-viable progamers at this point, as in, people that have a realistic shot of actually winning a BO3 series in a competitive tournament for money of some description. If we can provide access to this kind of funding to that many people, if they can win just a couple of maps, that is a massive boost to the sustainability of SC2 as an eSport that people can dedicate to full-time and an important part of a healthy ecosystem.
It's a format where they realistically can too. Beat 1 person, on any given day, that's 500 bucks. Beat 2, that's $1000. Hey you just paid your rent in a lot of places in the world, for 2 maps, not to mention you massively raised your profile in front of like 60-100,000 viewers. The way most tournaments are setup in SC2 is top-heavy and the majority of those 150 tournament-viable players will never see significant prize money from any of them, because to get there they have to run a gauntlet of really fucking good players. Kings is a format where they realistically can do it and do it without it being viewed as a welfare event. Everyone doesn't win. Everyone doesnt get a trophy for participating. You have to win, to get paid but if you win, you get paid. Dunno if you've noticed but that's not true in most tournaments, winning only counts if you win enough. Win once in Kings, get paid.
So yeah, that's how I view the event as a part of the support structure for competitive SC2 and I think it's a justified way of looking at it. As for the idea of "why does X money go to Y and not Z?", we totally could make 2 Kings events a month, $5000 each. Or Kings and something else, but here's the thing, time and personnel resources are not unlimited things, especially not in my case. I do give up opportunities in order to run Kings, opportunities that would make me more than Kings does. I take no salary from Kings, but I do make money through Twitch and Youtube vods. Simply doubling my workload isnt actually a viable option, I've only got so many hours I can commit to Starcraft without unduly compromising the other stuff I do and sorry to say it, but give that $5000 to someone else and they aint getting even a fraction of the value out of it that I can. Blizzard know it, everyone who knows anything knows it. It's the right spend in the right place for maximum return within the bounds of what I'm realistically capable of committing to SC2 right now.
Despite which there's still more than just Kings coming this year from me tournament wise and warchest funding is making those new events happen. You'll know more soon.
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Also thinking in terms of timing, increasing support for online tournaments is realistically the only way to spend the "excess" money from the war chest right now, quickly. For next Warchests and seasons, Blizzard should plan better though, and also communicate better those plans to the community.
Just to be clear, I am not critizising the increase of funding for Shoutcraft Kings. It makes all the sense. But it would be nice to know in advance that, after increasing the price pool at Blizzcon, the next 25 k$ will go to this event, the next 25k$ to X, next 50 k$ to Y, etc. Setting goals this way is usual in crowfounding, and for good reasons. I assume even Blizzard has been surprised by the sales of the war chest. Let's hope it won't happen next time.
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To me, where the crux of the question lies is the method in which players are chosen to play. The volatile Bo1 format along with the seemingly random or fabricated matchmaking with an unknown pool of players are what I see as the vexing aspects of this tournament getting more money over other weekly, daily, etc. tournaments.
There's a sort of if-by-whiskey situation here. Blizzard using funds from War Chest sales to reinforce tournaments outside of Blizzcon and WCS seems like a very healthy idea. However, if only the best of the best players are taking that money home every month, then this tournament will no longer be a fun, challenging "pay players' rent tourney" and would become an unhealthy "rich get richer tourney" and defeat a lot of the purpose of the War Chest and ShoutCraft Kings.
I would love to know how players (of any and all 'tiers' and origins) feel about this tournament getting more support but I also think, as with many things, it's too early and there is too little information to say exactly what's "best" over other things that haven't been explored much, if at all. Personally, if I had to choose whether to reinforce an existing, successful event or to create something new or reinvigorate something else/something smaller, I would favor the latter options, as I believe (much more than some) that investing in smaller or newer things has a bigger impact in the long term than investing in something that is already successful and will thrive on its own. But, again, so far the tournament has been good, a good challenge and good opportunity for players of moderate-high skill level, it's fun for the community, and it's still unique within esports, so I'll still support Blizzard pumping this up more. For now, at least.
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On August 09 2017 08:34 blunderfulguy wrote:
To me, where the crux of the question lies is the method in which players are chosen to play. The volatile Bo1 format along with the seemingly random or fabricated matchmaking with an unknown pool of players are what I see as the vexing aspects of this tournament getting more money over other weekly, daily, etc. tournaments.
There's a sort of if-by-whiskey situation here. Blizzard using funds from War Chest sales to reinforce tournaments outside of Blizzcon and WCS seems like a very healthy idea. However, if only the best of the best players are taking that money home every month, then this tournament will no longer be a fun, challenging "pay players' rent tourney" and would become an unhealthy "rich get richer tourney" and defeat a lot of the purpose of the War Chest and ShoutCraft Kings.
I would love to know how players (of any and all 'tiers' and origins) feel about this tournament getting more support but I also think, as with many things, it's too early and there is too little information to say exactly what's "best" over other things that haven't been explored much, if at all. Personally, if I had to choose whether to reinforce an existing, successful event or to create something new or reinvigorate something else/something smaller, I would favor the latter options, as I believe (much more than some) that investing in smaller or newer things has a bigger impact in the long term than investing in something that is already successful and will thrive on its own. But, again, so far the tournament has been good, a good challenge and good opportunity for players of moderate-high skill level, it's fun for the community, and it's still unique within esports, so I'll still support Blizzard pumping this up more. For now, at least.
Well thankfully we know for certain that the "Best of the best" are not the only ones taking home money from this event and thats been shown in previous breakdowns in this thread of where the prizemoney went.
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China6331 Posts
People complain about this?
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On August 09 2017 15:53 digmouse wrote:
People complain about this?
I guess, mostly seems like people don't really understand concepts like opportunity cost and efficient spending and only see dollar amounts being moved around in buckets. Not at all that easy. X money doesn't magically create Y tournament with Z viewers. They see money invested into something already successful and think 'that money could be spent to make another equally successful event instead!'. Well it can't. You can get more views than Kings but only with a much larger, offline event and you can't do that on this small of a budget. Or you can give that money to someone else and they'll make you an online event that about 1/10th of the people watch compared to ours. Lowko is the only person that still has enough of a YouTube presence to do a tournament like this and draw a casual crowd. I hope he considers doing one soon. He's taken over huskys position in the YouTube market and we could really use that kind of muscle.
What blizzard understand is that Shoutcraft is a strong brand that's been around since Wings beta and it has an audience, some of which are inaccessible to other tournaments. They're investing in a brand of strong, well-run, online events that get GSL level viewership for a fraction of the price and they know that we can do more if we're given a larger budget to play with and further expand our reach into the casual market that other tournaments have difficulty accessing. Slowly, we can bring those people into the ecosystem and create true Starcraft esports fans.
Back when I first launched Shoutcraft in wings beta, our tag line was 'your esports gateway drug'. That philosophy never really changed. We wanted to be accesssible to casuals and non-fans alike and we have achieved that through the use of unique formats, interesting concepts, viewer-friendly scheduling and our spoiler-free vod policy. That's why nobody else can make an online event that gets our levels of viewership, we spent 8 years building that brand and Blizzard wants us to grow bigger because it benefits everyone when we do.
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EPT
