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On April 10 2016 12:21 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:15 Shellshock wrote:
bigger upset? neeb + puck qualifying from NA or Cham winning Copa America? Honestly, I wasn't too surprised when neeb made I through as he did last time, but I was very surprised when puck won against hydra twice and then in the rematch against polt. Puck's been a good player, but never "beat hydra twice and then polt" good. Maybe a combination of off days plus some good Starcraft by puck.
puCK's PvZ is good. Beating hydra isn't completely surprising. Beating Polt was much more so.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
At the same time, early DT cheeses are purely binary - does he have a scan? If he does, my cheese fails badly
Cloaked units vs scans in early-midgame are so much more intricate than that. The game wasn't even passive either
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On April 10 2016 12:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +At the same time, early DT cheeses are purely binary - does he have a scan? If he does, my cheese fails badly Cloaked units vs scans in early-midgame are so much more intricate than that. The game wasn't even passive either
Yeah people dont understand that saving scans is a decision made by the player. its not like you HAVE to use mules 100% of the time, especially in the early-mid game
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
On April 10 2016 12:37 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:33 Cyro wrote:At the same time, early DT cheeses are purely binary - does he have a scan? If he does, my cheese fails badly Cloaked units vs scans in early-midgame are so much more intricate than that. The game wasn't even passive either Yeah people dont understand that saving scans is a decision made by the player. its not like you HAVE to use mules 100% of the time, especially in the early-mid game
Not just saving scans, but using some aggressively vs other forms of scouting too. Polt made the decision not to scout anything more than he had seen from pressure at the front that game and it wasn't the first time, he does it regularly to have more money and earlier timings. If that wasn't an option, the game would be less deep.
You can also count out the orbital energy spent recently by the amount of mules mining. He could make a ton of choices and while having a dark shrine pretty early isn't binary, spending 150 energy to leave both of your orbitals at around 5-20 energy when you don't have the ability to build a turret is quite risky.
Stream chat moderation was really bad today
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On April 10 2016 12:39 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:37 vult wrote:On April 10 2016 12:33 Cyro wrote:At the same time, early DT cheeses are purely binary - does he have a scan? If he does, my cheese fails badly Cloaked units vs scans in early-midgame are so much more intricate than that. The game wasn't even passive either Yeah people dont understand that saving scans is a decision made by the player. its not like you HAVE to use mules 100% of the time, especially in the early-mid game Not just saving scans, but using some aggressively vs other forms of scouting too. Polt made the decision not to scout anything more than he had seen from pressure at the front that game and it wasn't the first time, he does it regularly to have more money and earlier timings. If that wasn't an option, the game would be less deep. You can also count out the orbital energy spent recently by the amount of mules mining. He could make a ton of choices and while having a dark shrine pretty early isn't binary, spending 150 energy to leave both of your orbitals at around 5-20 energy when you don't have the ability to build a turret is quite risky. The stream chat was like 50% balance whine, I have not seen anything that bad for quite a long time
DT cheeses work fundamentally differently from cheeses of other kinds - you could defend other cheeses even if you didn't scout it, so long as you have excellent micro. There is no such nuance to DT cheeses - if you don't scout it, you are effectively doomed if you lack a scan, regardless of your ability to control your units. As far as the availability of options go - yes, scanning as opposed to muling adds a risk/reward factor to the game which increases its depth - but when the reward is constant, set, and is meant to help you catch up to the opponent's slightly superior economic position, while the risk ranges from easily defendable to lethal - one side can definitely be said to have far more early-game options than the other.
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On April 10 2016 12:20 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:18 CheddarToss wrote:On April 10 2016 12:16 BeStFAN wrote:
oh my god polt HAD that base trade and then he loses to a DT drop in game 6
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Polt may be Polt but PROTOSS WILL ALWAYS BE PROTOSS Yeah, because flying buildings off the map is not BS, while DTs are clearly BS? Lol. May I remind you that buildings fly since 1998, and that there are numerous counters to them? At the same time, early DT cheeses are purely binary - does he have a scan? If he does, my cheese fails badly - if not, I kill all his workers and win the game.
And how long are DTs in the game? 
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
DT cheeses
You can shit on anything in the game by calling it a "cheese". Puck would not have even been behind in the game if polt got 3 free turrets in his base before the warp prism came in
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On April 10 2016 12:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 12:21 FrkFrJss wrote:On April 10 2016 12:15 Shellshock wrote:
bigger upset? neeb + puck qualifying from NA or Cham winning Copa America? Honestly, I wasn't too surprised when neeb made I through as he did last time, but I was very surprised when puck won against hydra twice and then in the rematch against polt. Puck's been a good player, but never "beat hydra twice and then polt" good. Maybe a combination of off days plus some good Starcraft by puck. puCK's PvZ is good. Beating hydra isn't completely surprising. Beating Polt was much more so.
Well in general, Protoss through WoL and HotS have struggled less against Zerg than Terran, but if puCK's PvZ is good, Hydra's ZvP is even better.. But yeah, Puck having close to a 50% winrate and still managing to pull off a win versus Polt was definitely an even bigger upset.
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Did I miss the USA chant?
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You can shit on anything in the game by calling it a "cheese". Puck would not have even been behind in the game if polt got 3 free turrets in his base before the warp prism came in.
The risk was on polt for playing like he did in the very early game (he went down by 1.5x on worker count to do a big attack with an scv pulled for proxy bunker)
Well done on being obtuse and missing the fundamental message of my post. I don't give a damn whether or not calling something a 'cheese' equates to 'shitting' on it - early Dark Shrines represent a significant investment and deviation from regular Protoss builds, which means that Protoss has to do significant damage to level his position with Terran's. Most cheeses share this characteristic; I don't have a problem with early Dark Shrines for being cheesy.
My problem with them is that they are far too punishing and binary. If Terran doesn't scout them (note that DS can be proxied, a relatively frequent occurrence), and lacks a scan when they arrive, he is almost certainly doomed. In this case, Polt decided to execute a 1-base Hellion-Marines attack with an expansion behind it, and was down 12 workers, as well as being left with a weak tech. At this point, any kind of punishment by Protoss with superior tech could have been attempted - but Polt could have defended all of them (Adept, Oracle, even Blink Stalkers) with good micromanagement, even if he didn't see them coming. With DTs, he had no such opportunities - he simply died on the spot. Now, should Terran be weak and vulnerable after failed early, heavy aggression? Yes. Should he be vulnerable to punishment? Of course. The problem is that the punishment is unquestionably and irrevokably fatal; this kind of 3 buttons strategy is rather stupid, if I must say.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
which means that Protoss has to do significant damage to level his position with Terran's
Defense and map control have real value and there's no need to level a position if you're ahead/even before using them offensively
and was down 12 workers
Being down 12 workers isn't game ending when you have 60 workers but it is pretty terrible when you have 24
The problem is that the punishment is unquestionably and irrevokably fatal
Polt made that decision himself when he used all three casts of the orbital on mules. He did that knowing that it would open him up to near-instant death if that situation happened but it would put him in a stronger position otherwise - you really need to give more credit to these players
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
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United States97276 Posts
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USA > Koreigners, whoa! Vods?
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France12904 Posts
Sad marine as usual, at least Polt is gonna actually perform in the offline event but still.
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On April 10 2016 19:14 Poopi wrote:
Sad marine as usual, at least Polt is gonna actually perform in the offline event but still.
Is he going? paid travels chances are gone.
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Australia18228 Posts
On April 10 2016 19:18 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 19:14 Poopi wrote:
Sad marine as usual, at least Polt is gonna actually perform in the offline event but still. Is he going? paid travels chances are gone.
He's going to be invited and Ro32 is $1500 so no reason not to (even if no paid travels)
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Great puCK managed to win it after he was 0:2. Somehow, I needed to go sleep after game 4, but as far as I read, the game 5 must have been really good :-)
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EPT
