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your Country52797 Posts
On January 05 2016 07:49 DSK wrote:
Well played and congratulations MarineLorD, and by extension, team France and commiserations to team Korea; I honestly wasn't expecting such a result. Despite latency and ping issues (not sure what server the games were played on, hence my saying that - if I'm wrong then don't flame me), it's still a great result.
Much respect for the Koreans congratulating MarineGoD. Stay classy.
I believe the games were on NA.
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On January 05 2016 05:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 03:41 RvB wrote:On January 05 2016 01:58 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 01:47 sharkie wrote:On January 05 2016 01:43 Charoisaur wrote:On January 04 2016 23:30 Ppjack wrote:On January 04 2016 23:10 Ansibled wrote:On January 04 2016 22:36 Ppjack wrote:That is hilarious that the koreans congratulate Marinelord for his performance, while a significant percentage of foreigners are making the most hilarious excuses and did cry all night long as they realise their sweet pop-idols are not invincible. http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=347&aid=0000082344HAHAHA what a day to be aliveeeeee :D Why can't you do both? Marinelord deserves to be congratulated but there are also circumstances that makes his victory less meaningful. Excuses are always going to be made when the better players lose, if you want the excuses to be gone then we have to see them perform well continually or perform well on LAN. If we want excuses to be gone we have to see him compete in Korea. The korean bias is too strong and totally disgusting in this community. I always feel like talking to kids that no nothing except that "koreans" are the best, or to people of my age that grew with Boxers that just barely follow the foreign scene at all but still talk out loud. I don't know what kind of bias it is. I don't want to believe too that a lot of the "geek" community is fucking biased toward Asia in general. Best food best girls best mentality best music whatever, it is hilarious. Btw who the fuck downsize the performance of Luminosity when they beat Nip, Envy and TSM? EU is the korea of cs, there are a lot of banter between EU and NA, it is clearly a fact that NA teams don't perform as good as EU teams and that they lack something in the mindset. But everyone want them to catch up and is happy when they have a good run. Wtf is wrong in starcraft ? Korean bias just too strong and annoying. I've been a lurker for years and years as my english wasn't good enough before I had to travel a lot with my job, and I seem to only post to defend foreigners. Why? Because oh my god this community is SO biased and TL and reddit are a whine fest. No funny posts, few positive attitude posts. Just having the chance to live such an incredible storyline should rejoycs everyone. Even the koreans I read from are simply happy to see something different happen. We all know Innovation is the better player, he has nothing to prove, and Marinelord said it was probably the only time in his career that would achieve that. Anyway. I am so happy to have lived that  And my favorite players have always been MMA, Nestea, Stephano, Marineking and Innovation. Please add Marinelord to the list ! Korea bias??? wtf? koreans are the best that's a fact. they are so good they got banned from international tournaments so that others have a chance to win. What is wrong with people cheering for the best players? It's wrong that when the best players lose these people look for excuses. We didn't look very far. It was there right in front of us. When you're presented with a fact and you react with "you shouldn't look for excuses" without questioning the fact at all, what you're essentially saying is "you should ignore reality just as much as me". Well no. there are anecdotes of Koreans practising all night before an important match and still winning. There's also the fact they've known for weeks now that they'd have to wake up early and they could have prepared for it. They might have played worse because they were tired but a lot of that responsibility goes to the players as well. Marinelord just played out of his mind yesterday and the Koreans worse than normal. There's no need to make excuses for Koreans whether it's true or not. They're professionals. The same goes for foreign players of course. Just out of curiosity, if you agree that the Koreans played worse than normal, why do you consider stating it an "excuse"? And what exactly made you want to disagree with me?
In this case the timezone difference reason is valid, but this reason is given so reflexively whenever an underdog defeats a Korean player/team that it really can seem like it's just a standard excuse. For example, when Petraeus took two maps from Korea in the group stage there were people (not you, specifically) who invoked this reason even though New Zealand didn't really have a significant time zone advantage as far as I recall. So when that reasoning is repeated even when it's not appropriate for the context, yes, unfortunately it can seem like it's just an excuse even when it happens to be valid.
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On January 05 2016 07:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Daswollvieh doesn't explain anything. He says they could have played/prepared better. Yeah, that's true, they could have. But they didn't.
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought...
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2450 Posts
On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 07:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Daswollvieh doesn't explain anything. He says they could have played/prepared better. Yeah, that's true, they could have. But they didn't. Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought...
You mean they should have changed their sleeping rhythm to adapt to be at their mental height at 7 AM?
Because all errors I saw were errors made because you are not 100% focused. And this could either be because they were not serious enough (then you are right, they don't deserve it) or when you suffer from sleep deprivation.
Some of the errors innovation did were not lazyness or on purpose, to me this totally looked like he was extremely tired.
BUT I don't wanna say MarinelorD didn't deserve his wins. On the contrary. I was more then impressed by what I saw.
The micro, the macro and the multitasking.
I saw games where I thought "well he doesn't watch this unit there or this drop here, so ok he loses it, he is a foreigner and doesn't have the 400 apm of a korean pro", or, because I am so used to watch GSL and WCS, i thought "well that would have been a typical flash mistake" or whatever. And the funny thing is, everytime I thought he might lose this single unit here and there, drop at the wrong position or whatever... he didn't make these errors.
I don't say he is Code S material, but he certainly played well enough to not show mistakes that even on Code S would be considered "normal". Sure he made other mistakes, but these last 5 games of him that I saw, he didn't win because the others threw them in a stupid fashion, he won them, because he got ahead by many small things he did better then his opponents. His victories were impressive, nobody should try to make them... you know bad/small/weak (sorry for my bad english, I can't find another expression in my head right now)
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On January 05 2016 09:53 Rollora wrote:
Because all errors I saw were errors made because you are not 100% focused. And this could either be because they were not serious enough (then you are right, they don't deserve it) or when you suffer from sleep deprivation.
Some of the errors innovation did were not lazyness or on purpose, to me this totally looked like he was extremely tired.
False dichotomy, there's a myriad of reasons why anyone could not be 100% focused on the game that people seem to forget every time they make this kind of argument. Yeah, maybe they were not serious enough, maybe they were tired, maybe they had all kinds of personal problems, team problems, other worries in their life, maybe their dog died, maybe their girlfriend dumped them, maybe their grandmother died recently, food poisoning, having a cold, being drunk, pretty much any number and permutation of factors that affect us in our day to day lives and prevent us from fully concentrating on the task at hand.
And we don't know which of those, if any, is correct. And even moreover, you conveniently seem to forget that maybe, just maybe, MLorD himself was also under the effect of one or more of the same circumstances, yeah, how's that? Maybe he was even more tired and still played significantly better. It's a possibility no less likely than the above. How about MLorD's nerves of going up against such fierce and prestigious opponents for 5 maps in a row, and the pressure and responsability of not disappointing teammates, fans, viewers? Have you considered that? We don't actually know what factors acted on whom and how and to what extent they affected the players, and to pretend otherwise is just a big disservice to everyone involved.
This is just as ridiculous as the people who used to claim "oh well liquid HerO should have smoked that guy, he just lost because of nerves" well tough titties motherfucker the onus is on him to not have those issues, it's not his opponent's fault nor should it rob his opponent of the win.
This is why Nebuchad's shitpost is ridiculous to me as are the many people who blindly join the same train of thought. Glad at least some here acknowledge MLorD's victory and its significance.
Good to see not much has changed in sc2...
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On January 05 2016 08:11 Kofuku wrote:
In this case the timezone difference reason is valid, but this reason is given so reflexively whenever an underdog defeats a Korean player/team that it really can seem like it's just a standard excuse. For example, when Petraeus took two maps from Korea in the group stage there were people (not you, specifically) who invoked this reason even though New Zealand didn't really have a significant time zone advantage as far as I recall. So when that reasoning is repeated even when it's not appropriate for the context, yes, unfortunately it can seem like it's just an excuse even when it happens to be valid.
The distinction isn't that one is an excuse and one isn't. The distinction is that one is wrong and the other isn't. What you're doing here is questioning the facts presented when it comes to the Petraeus situation. Like I said in my first post, you're totally free to do that, and you appear to be right on this. But when you don't question it, there's no reason why we should ignore it, and there's no reason why not ignoring it would make us disgusting korean apologists.
On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought...
Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win?
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On January 05 2016 10:28 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought... Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win?
Yeah dawg, your argument has no legs to stand on; whatever you assume might have caused them not to perform, it's irrelevant and no reason to dismiss MLorD's achievement or the credibility of the matches, because you don't actually know, none of us knows. (although I do agree with some of the concerns others have posted throughout the LR thread regarding tournament organization, but that's another matter entirely).
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On January 05 2016 10:34 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 10:28 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought... Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win? Yeah dawg, your argument has no legs to stand on; whatever you assume might have caused them not to perform, it's irrelevant and no reason to dismiss MLorD's achievement or the credibility of the matches, because you don't actually know, none of us knows. (although I do agree with some of the concerns others have posted throughout the LR thread regarding tournament organization, but that's another matter entirely).
No one wants to dismiss Mlord's achievement. Nerchio didn't beat the koreans. Nobody else than Mlord did.
The fact that Mlord did something amazing is no reason to ignore that the koreans weren't at their peak. We're here because ppjack criticized us for stating something that seems clearly true and hasn't been disputed by anyone on your side so far. If you want to question the notion that koreans weren't at their peak, go ahead. If you don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with any of what I've said.
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On January 05 2016 10:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 10:34 207aicila wrote:On January 05 2016 10:28 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought... Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win? Yeah dawg, your argument has no legs to stand on; whatever you assume might have caused them not to perform, it's irrelevant and no reason to dismiss MLorD's achievement or the credibility of the matches, because you don't actually know, none of us knows. (although I do agree with some of the concerns others have posted throughout the LR thread regarding tournament organization, but that's another matter entirely). No one wants to dismiss Mlord's achievement. Nerchio didn't beat the koreans. Nobody else than Mlord did. The fact that Mlord did something amazing is no reason to ignore that the koreans weren't at their peak. We're here because ppjack criticized us for stating something that seems clearly true and hasn't been disputed by anyone on your side so far. If you want to question the notion that koreans weren't at their peak, go ahead. If you don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with any of what I've said.
No one is ignoring that the Koreans weren't at their peak. And if they are then I'll make my opinion clear that they're stupid for doing so. But pointing shit like this out every single time someone accomplishes an impressive feat has got very tiresome over the years. I don't believe this is a discussion that needs to be had every time, because there is never going to be a conclusion other than "nobody knows for sure what and how and why, move along and stop trying to shit on people".
I may have gone a bit hard I'll admit that much, but it's very frustrating to witness shit like this every time someone does well. Especially when other foreigners in the past were praised much, much more for much, much less, but that's not a can of worms I want to open right now because the community can be very blind in its fanboyism sometimes.
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On January 05 2016 10:51 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 10:38 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 10:34 207aicila wrote:On January 05 2016 10:28 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought... Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win? Yeah dawg, your argument has no legs to stand on; whatever you assume might have caused them not to perform, it's irrelevant and no reason to dismiss MLorD's achievement or the credibility of the matches, because you don't actually know, none of us knows. (although I do agree with some of the concerns others have posted throughout the LR thread regarding tournament organization, but that's another matter entirely). No one wants to dismiss Mlord's achievement. Nerchio didn't beat the koreans. Nobody else than Mlord did. The fact that Mlord did something amazing is no reason to ignore that the koreans weren't at their peak. We're here because ppjack criticized us for stating something that seems clearly true and hasn't been disputed by anyone on your side so far. If you want to question the notion that koreans weren't at their peak, go ahead. If you don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with any of what I've said. No one is ignoring that the Koreans weren't at their peak. But pointing shit like this out every single time someone accomplishes an impressive feat has got very tiresome over the years. I don't believe this is a discussion that needs to be had every time, because there is never going to be a conclusion other than "nobody knows for sure what and how and why, move along and stop trying to shit on people". I may have gone a bit hard I'll admit that much, but it's very frustrating to witness shit like this every time someone does well. Especially when others in the past were praised much more for much less, but that's not a can of worms I feel like opening right now...
Of course they are ignoring it. ppjack called us disgustingly biased for Korea because we dared saying it. Sharkie said it was a process of "looking for excuses". It isn't. It's just a factor of those games that we have to consider, the same as we have to consider that Mlord played great.
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On January 05 2016 10:54 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2016 10:51 207aicila wrote:On January 05 2016 10:38 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 10:34 207aicila wrote:On January 05 2016 10:28 Nebuchad wrote:On January 05 2016 09:15 207aicila wrote:
Maybe if they didn't prepare better they don't actually deserve to win? Just a thought... Seriously, you used "false dichotomy" in a sentence in the post right after the one where you equated me saying the Koreans weren't at their peak with me saying they deserved to win? Yeah dawg, your argument has no legs to stand on; whatever you assume might have caused them not to perform, it's irrelevant and no reason to dismiss MLorD's achievement or the credibility of the matches, because you don't actually know, none of us knows. (although I do agree with some of the concerns others have posted throughout the LR thread regarding tournament organization, but that's another matter entirely). No one wants to dismiss Mlord's achievement. Nerchio didn't beat the koreans. Nobody else than Mlord did. The fact that Mlord did something amazing is no reason to ignore that the koreans weren't at their peak. We're here because ppjack criticized us for stating something that seems clearly true and hasn't been disputed by anyone on your side so far. If you want to question the notion that koreans weren't at their peak, go ahead. If you don't, then you shouldn't have a problem with any of what I've said. No one is ignoring that the Koreans weren't at their peak. But pointing shit like this out every single time someone accomplishes an impressive feat has got very tiresome over the years. I don't believe this is a discussion that needs to be had every time, because there is never going to be a conclusion other than "nobody knows for sure what and how and why, move along and stop trying to shit on people". I may have gone a bit hard I'll admit that much, but it's very frustrating to witness shit like this every time someone does well. Especially when others in the past were praised much more for much less, but that's not a can of worms I feel like opening right now... Of course they are ignoring it. ppjack called us disgustingly biased for Korea because we dared saying it. Sharkie said it was a process of "looking for excuses". It isn't. It's just a factor of those games that we have to consider, the same as we have to consider that Mlord played great.
Edited my comment in the mean time but I guess it was after you had already quoted it.
I guess tone and phrasing matters a lot, I bet a lot of people are just as tired of this discussion as I am, so maybe they took it as a dismissal of MLorD's play. Or maybe they're crazy, I don't know...
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innovation played horribly but everyone's acting like this is the first time they've seen koreans make mistakes lol
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EPT
