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ToDs idea was good in theory, the lag just wouldn't make it viable though, are you going to uproot a whole team and move them to Europe/America just so they can have competitive lag? I mean I know China has already been mentioned but when every Korean starts heading there and qualifies for WCS World watch that loophole get slammed shut
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On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players.
Yeah I love HSC, but it should not give WCS points.
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On April 10 2015 23:23 showstealer1829 wrote:
ToDs idea was good in theory, the lag just wouldn't make it viable though, are you going to uproot a whole team and move them to Europe/America just so they can have competitive lag?
That's what Hydra, ForGG and Polt had to do to compete in WCS. Move to and live in foreign countries.
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On April 10 2015 23:14 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. It is the easiest skill/prizemoney ratio tournament in the world right now, it's easier than online leagues and qualifiers. Still worth watching, but let's not pretend foreigners aren't lucky to have it. This is such an interesting phenomenon. I can't think of any other form of competition where one nationality is excluded for statistically being better.
The biggest comparison is the olympics, when participants are limited by nationality. But it makes sense in that all nations have a limit to reach, it's still very different from saying one nation is banned.
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On April 10 2015 23:27 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:23 showstealer1829 wrote:
ToDs idea was good in theory, the lag just wouldn't make it viable though, are you going to uproot a whole team and move them to Europe/America just so they can have competitive lag? That's what Hydra, ForGG and Polt had to do to compete in WCS. Move to and live in foreign countries.
Polt was already kind of there so it's not fair to include him. Plus they're not Korean based teams. Polt is part of a two man team. ForGG and Hydra are with teams based in the region. That's different to moving an entire team to a country.
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Also here's something that people apparently do not get about opinions.
Let's posit someone who likes 24. He says I like 24. Let's then posit someone else who says he doesn't like 24. He says he doesn't like 24. Assuming good faith on both sides, you have someone who likes 24 and someone who doesn't. That isn't contradictory, and that's their opinion.
Let's then posit someone who says 24 is a well-made show, and someone who says 24 isn't a well-made show. We are now talking about quality, and there is a right answer to this question. 24 cannot be of good and bad quality at the same time, and so one of these people is wrong.
What TB says doesn't fall in the first category. It's not either true or false depending on your opinion, it's simply either true or false. So the fact that it's TB's opinion isn't relevant to the discussion. When I say 2+2=4, it's still me talking, so it's still my subjective opinion. No one cares, though.
And yes, I am annoyed that I even have to say it.
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On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players.
If you don't help foreigners and all tournaments end up being full korean I'm sure the viewership will drop and probably tournaments would start offering less prize money, so koreans would get screwed as well. I think it's a system that tries to maximize happiness and it's not about foreigners being thankful, it's just a tradeoff.
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On April 10 2015 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:16 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. -What's the point of arguing with people you apparently consider to hold invalid opinions? Oo... What's the point of arguing with people you consider to hold valid opinions?
Well, you could consider an opinion to be neither valid nor invalid, which means that you are interested in the reasoning behind the opinion.
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On April 10 2015 23:27 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:23 showstealer1829 wrote:
ToDs idea was good in theory, the lag just wouldn't make it viable though, are you going to uproot a whole team and move them to Europe/America just so they can have competitive lag? That's what Hydra, ForGG and Polt had to do to compete in WCS. Move to and live in foreign countries.
ForGG didn't move to participate in WCS. WCS was created after he moved.
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On April 10 2015 23:34 MadLoki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players. If you don't help foreigners and all tournaments end up being full korean I'm sure the viewership will drop and probably tournaments would start offering less prize money, so koreans would get screwed as well. I think it's a system that tries to maximize happiness and it's not about foreigners being thankful, it's just a tradeoff.
This I don't get at all. Why would viewers not just want to see the highest level of play? Who are these people that tune out because there isn't an even distribution of nationailities. Why would that affect the game for them? Like who the fuck was watching SL in BW and then noped out because IdrA wasn't in it.
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On April 10 2015 23:33 Nebuchad wrote:
Also here's something that people apparently do not get about opinions.
Let's posit someone who likes 24. He says I like 24. Let's then posit someone else who says he doesn't like 24. He says he doesn't like 24. Assuming good faith on both sides, you have someone who likes 24 and someone who doesn't. That isn't contradictory, and that's their opinion.
Let's then posit someone who says 24 is a well-made show, and someone who says 24 isn't a well-made show. We are now talking about quality, and there is a right answer to this question. 24 cannot be of good and bad quality at the same time, and so one of these people is wrong.
What TB says doesn't fall in the first category. It's not either true or false depending on your opinion, it's simply either true or false. So the fact that it's TB's opinion isn't relevant to the discussion. When I say 2+2=4, it's still me talking, so it's still my subjective opinion. No one cares, though.
And yes, I am annoyed that I even have to say it.
You're comparing apples and oranges though.
To use your analogy this is an argument between a producer of 24 and a fan of 24. Of course the producer has more weight in his argument, he's providing the entertainment, he's paying the actors, he's making sure there is a 24 for the fan to have an opinion on, that's the difference
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On April 10 2015 23:33 Nebuchad wrote:
Also here's something that people apparently do not get about opinions.
Let's posit someone who likes 24. He says I like 24. Let's then posit someone else who says he doesn't like 24. He says he doesn't like 24. Assuming good faith on both sides, you have someone who likes 24 and someone who doesn't. That isn't contradictory, and that's their opinion.
Let's then posit someone who says 24 is a well-made show, and someone who says 24 isn't a well-made show. We are now talking about quality, and there is a right answer to this question. 24 cannot be of good and bad quality at the same time, and so one of these people is wrong.
What TB says doesn't fall in the first category. It's not either true or false depending on your opinion, it's simply either true or false. So the fact that it's TB's opinion isn't relevant to the discussion. When I say 2+2=4, it's still me talking, so it's still my subjective opinion. No one cares, though.
And yes, I am annoyed that I even have to say it.
What? Since when is quality objective? A show, a song, an object, ANYTHING, can be of good and bad quality at the same time, for different people. You're basically denying diversity here.
When you say 2+2=4, it is your subjective opinion that is shared by basically everyone, thus it is considered as objective and enters the realm of what we call "truth". When you say "this show is bad", it is your subjective opinion that isn't shared by everyone, thus it is considered as subjective.
I mean come on, the very principle of opinions is that they're contradictory AND subjective. Or else, why aren't we living in a perfect society where the "true" opinions are shared by everyone? Why are so many ppl disagreeing everyday if so many of those people are just "wrong"?
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On April 10 2015 23:39 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:34 MadLoki wrote:On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:
[quote]
Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players. If you don't help foreigners and all tournaments end up being full korean I'm sure the viewership will drop and probably tournaments would start offering less prize money, so koreans would get screwed as well. I think it's a system that tries to maximize happiness and it's not about foreigners being thankful, it's just a tradeoff. This I don't get at all. Why would viewers not just want to see the highest level of play? Who are these people that tune out because there isn't an even distribution of nationailities. Why would that affect the game for them? Like who the fuck was watching SL in BW and then noped out because IdrA wasn't in it.
I wouldn't stop watching, but I might understand that some people wouldn't. It's always more fun to watch a sport if you are rooting for someone, and it's easier to root for someone more close to your country than a faceless korean. That obviously doesn't mean that some other just care about the game and not who is playing it. All in all, I was just stating that a part of the viewership spectrum would drop.
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On April 10 2015 23:44 MadLoki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:39 Exstasy wrote:On April 10 2015 23:34 MadLoki wrote:On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:
[quote]
If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion.
Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with.
1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney
2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played.
Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players. If you don't help foreigners and all tournaments end up being full korean I'm sure the viewership will drop and probably tournaments would start offering less prize money, so koreans would get screwed as well. I think it's a system that tries to maximize happiness and it's not about foreigners being thankful, it's just a tradeoff. This I don't get at all. Why would viewers not just want to see the highest level of play? Who are these people that tune out because there isn't an even distribution of nationailities. Why would that affect the game for them? Like who the fuck was watching SL in BW and then noped out because IdrA wasn't in it. I wouldn't stop watching, but I might understand that some people wouldn't. It's always more fun to watch a sport if you are rooting for someone, and it's easier to root for someone more close to your country than a faceless korean. That obviously doesn't mean that some other just care about the game and not who is playing it. All in all, I was just stating that a part of the viewership spectrum would drop.
I see what you're saying, however i think it is a bit shortsighted to watch sc2 and then pick your favourite players based on an irrelevant attribute of the player. Personally I remember watching Marineking vs Kyrix and from then on I watched pretty much every MK game despite his fall in form. It makes more sense to me to follow players based on skill/playstyle, but you're right others may look for personality etc.
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wow I stopped by to see what people were saying about the game, we seem to have a shitstorm instead, anyone would be kind enough to tell me what page of this thread I have to go to to catch up? 
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On April 10 2015 23:41 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:33 Nebuchad wrote:
Also here's something that people apparently do not get about opinions.
Let's posit someone who likes 24. He says I like 24. Let's then posit someone else who says he doesn't like 24. He says he doesn't like 24. Assuming good faith on both sides, you have someone who likes 24 and someone who doesn't. That isn't contradictory, and that's their opinion.
Let's then posit someone who says 24 is a well-made show, and someone who says 24 isn't a well-made show. We are now talking about quality, and there is a right answer to this question. 24 cannot be of good and bad quality at the same time, and so one of these people is wrong.
What TB says doesn't fall in the first category. It's not either true or false depending on your opinion, it's simply either true or false. So the fact that it's TB's opinion isn't relevant to the discussion. When I say 2+2=4, it's still me talking, so it's still my subjective opinion. No one cares, though.
And yes, I am annoyed that I even have to say it. What? Since when is quality objective? A show, a song, an object, ANYTHING, can be of good and bad quality at the same time, for different people. You're basically denying diversity here.
You're confusing taste and quality here. Diversity happens in what you like, and falls under the first category. Quality really doesn't. Haven't you ever heard a commercial song that you enjoyed, or heard classical music that just got you bored? Haven't you ever watched a movie that doesn't make a lot of sense and that you enjoyed anyways? Haven't you ever watched a very smart, very competently made TV show, that you had no interest in?
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On April 10 2015 23:54 Gwavajuice wrote:wow I stopped by to see what people were saying about the game, we seem to have a shitstorm instead, anyone would be kind enough to tell me what page of this thread I have to go to to catch up?
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On April 10 2015 23:34 MadLoki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players. If you don't help foreigners and all tournaments end up being full korean I'm sure the viewership will drop and probably tournaments would start offering less prize money, so koreans would get screwed as well. I think it's a system that tries to maximize happiness and it's not about foreigners being thankful, it's just a tradeoff.
Koreans get screwed already. I get why WCS World exists, but I still think foreigners should be praising the Blizzgods for making it happen. Blizzard is protecting an endangered species that wouldn't survive in the wild.
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On April 10 2015 23:55 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:54 Gwavajuice wrote:wow I stopped by to see what people were saying about the game, we seem to have a shitstorm instead, anyone would be kind enough to tell me what page of this thread I have to go to to catch up? 15
thank you good fellow
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
What happened to this thread?
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EPT
