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On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet.
I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point.
"1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney"
Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for?
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On April 10 2015 23:02 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean, when we didn't have region lock, the argument was that we needed that to create a place where foreigners could compete. Now that we have it, somehow it's not an easier way for foreigners to compete? Well what else is it supposed to be, then? The problem isn't that TB is disregarding the opinion of others, the problem is that some opinions aren't based in reality and should be called out as such.
I don't know man, the region locking doesn't help really does it? as TB said eventually you'll just see the korean talent that can't get through KR quals get paid by teams to relocate to china and then EU will be full of Koreans again.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Foreigners are fortunate to have region-locked WCS and GSL fucked up today. Is there something strange about those statements?
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so much salt in this thread...
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On April 10 2015 23:06 stuchiu wrote:
Foreigners are fortunate to have region-locked WCS and GSL fucked up today. Is there something strange about those statements?
Not about GSL fucking up, not sure about the other point myself.
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On April 10 2015 23:06 stuchiu wrote:
Foreigners are fortunate to have region-locked WCS and GSL fucked up today. Is there something strange about those statements?
Apparently some people see it as "bashing foreigners" and there are a few haters that just want to shit on Axiom whenever they get the opportunity.
So hey that's apparently what this whole stupid argument is about. Nothing at all.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 10 2015 23:07 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:06 stuchiu wrote:
Foreigners are fortunate to have region-locked WCS and GSL fucked up today. Is there something strange about those statements? Not about GSL fucking up, not sure about the other point myself.
Given how much of a money suck WCS/GSL/whatever else Blizzard is paying for is in general I think it's pretty fortunate yea.
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On April 10 2015 23:02 Nebuchad wrote:
I mean, when we didn't have region lock, the argument was that we needed that to create a place where foreigners could compete. Now that we have it, somehow it's not an easier way for foreigners to compete? Well what else is it supposed to be, then? The problem isn't that TB is disregarding the opinion of others, the problem is that some opinions aren't based in reality and should be called out as such.
Arrived late for this delicious drama. From what I can gather TB called out the foreign scene for being EX Mode compared to Korea and a bunch of foreigners got their egos hurt and raged?
My two cents, though TB could have maybe worded it nicer to avoid this all. His point is 100% valid. Anyone who thinks the foreign scenes WCS is harder then even Code A is not living in reality and need a serious wake up call. WCS AM etc. are a joke in terms of competition compared to even weekly tournaments in Korea... That being said it was supposed to be like this, supposed to give the foreign scene some cash so our players can focus and train 100% like the Koreans so the end game the scenes can be even. Whether that will work or not meh.
Edit: Well shit. Kind of fitting I guess my 6000th post is about drama.
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On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for?
Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams.
i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. It is the easiest skill/prizemoney ratio tournament in the world right now, it's easier than online leagues and qualifiers. Still worth watching, but let's not pretend foreigners aren't lucky to have it.
And let's not get started on WCS points I mean holy shit. There's a can of worms. The top ranked foreigner in WCS right now is Bunny with 950 points. He got all of those points from WCS and so did Showtime, who also has 950. Below him, we have fucking BByong, Leenock, sOs, Classic, Solar, Gumiho and more. Where did they get their points? GSL, IEM and SSL, against much harder opponents.
That's quite the discussion to have. Let's stop pretending that foreigners are not being given a leg up. I'm not even mad about that, I just want them to accept it. Sure, give foreigners a boost, why not? Just don't pretend that boost isn't there.
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On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it.
Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo.
So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful!
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On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. It is the easiest skill/prizemoney ratio tournament in the world right now, it's easier than online leagues and qualifiers. Still worth watching, but let's not pretend foreigners aren't lucky to have it.
This is such an interesting phenomenon. I can't think of any other form of competition where one nationality is excluded for statistically being better.
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On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful!
I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty.
I also think protecting weaker regions just makes them stagnate. Sure, some foreigners get paid and that's good, but they don't get a better practice environment. ToD I think made an argument on Late Game that sure, let the Koreans play, but make them practice on the ladder of the tournament they're going to play in, to give foreigners a more competitive ladder. Not a bad idea.
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On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues.
I would tune in just to watch the qualifiers for team Korea because that's where the real competition is.
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On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet.
I totally agree with your two statements. I also totally understand that you are, legitimately, angry because of the GSL thing. Now can you tell me :
-What's the point of bringing in WCS being weak? What's the relationship between (a) GSL/Blizz being incompetent and (b) WCS being purposely made to award money and exposure to mid-tier foreigners? That's not going to achieve anything useful except bait twitter-loving players.
-What's the point of arguing with people you apparently consider to hold invalid opinions? And what's the point of being openly insulting towards them? It doesn't add anything to your argument nor makes your opinion more valid. If anything it detracts from your point.
-About the relevancy of opinions : I often see you say that your opinion is more valid than others, but I think that you don't realize that relevancy is relative, not absolute. You hold Morrow's opinion on WCS as worthless, but he probably holds yours as worthless, and other people will hold one or the other, or both, as worthless. An opinion is by its very definition irrelevant unless it is the basis of an actual decision. So why do you keep saying to random forumers that their opinion is irrelevant? Even if you change the mind of said forumer, that's not going to be translated by anything concrete. You're wasting your time
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On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty.
Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Edit: Visa part is hard, that's true, but otherwise they would just fly in and out, not helping the local scene.
I also think protecting weaker regions just makes them stagnate. Sure, some foreigners get paid and that's good, but they don't get a better practice environment. ToD I think made an argument on Late Game that sure, let the Koreans play, but make them practice on the ladder of the tournament they're going to play in, to give foreigners a more competitive ladder. Not a bad idea.
Yeah I love that idea!
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Impact 
GSL fucked up big time, I hope they make up the players for that blunder.
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On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though. Show nested quote +I also think protecting weaker regions just makes them stagnate. Sure, some foreigners get paid and that's good, but they don't get a better practice environment. ToD I think made an argument on Late Game that sure, let the Koreans play, but make them practice on the ladder of the tournament they're going to play in, to give foreigners a more competitive ladder. Not a bad idea. Yeah I love that idea!
How would you implement it though? I mean I iust don't see how it could be done
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On April 10 2015 23:16 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. -What's the point of arguing with people you apparently consider to hold invalid opinions?
Oo... What's the point of arguing with people you consider to hold valid opinions?
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On April 10 2015 23:19 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:15 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:14 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. Hm makes sense, I agree. Although I still think it's fair since Koreans are actually allowed, they are just not supposed to train in Korea, fly in, win the money and fly out. Taking different training grounds into account and protecting weaker regions is good imo. So after taking your points into cosideration, I still think WCS Premier is good and fair, but foreigners are indeed fortunate and should be grateful! I think having to uproot, get a visa (which is not easy) and move to another country to compete is a pretty stiff penalty. Foreigners competing in GSL, training on Korea alwas had to do that too though.
Sure, but 90% of the tournaments in SC2 happen outside of Korea so you can also argue that foreigners have a much easier time of it because they have access to more events than Koreans do, who have to pay $1000 minimum just to get to them, let alone hotel costs. AND THAT, is assuming they even get in, which often involves playing a grueling Korean qualifier that's harder than the tournament they're qualifying for in the first place. On the other hand, foreigners have things like Homestory Cup which is for all intents and purposes an invitational with only 2 spots for korean qualifiers out of 32 players.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 10 2015 23:14 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 23:05 Musicus wrote:On April 10 2015 22:57 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 10 2015 22:54 OtherWorld wrote:On April 10 2015 22:50 TotalBiscuit wrote:
If foreigners get insulted by being told the facts, that they get an easy league because they're not good enough to beat Koreans (which they have proven countless times over the past 5 years with very rare exceptions), then that goes to show their insecurities.
If Morrow and Miniraiser had any class they'd be showing solidarity for their fellow progamers who got fucked over by GSLs incompetence today but I'd have to send Miniraiser a dictionary with just the C section for him to figure out what class means.
This is not about foreigners, it never was. They're not relevant to the GSL and they haven't been since Jinro. If they want to make it all about them, thats their business but it'd be nice if they did it in a place I didnt have to read and instead acknowledged that what GSL pulled today was bullshit. Sometimes you should take a step back, have a break, and then read what you wrote as if it had been written by someone else. If it was written by someone else it wouldn't be as relevant to this discussion. Here are two statements that I dare you to disagree with. 1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney 2) GSL messed up today by changing the effective ruleset of the tournament hours before games were to be played. Can you? Because that's all this argument is. Everything else is pointless bullshit. Morrow got a light ribbing and suddenly Miniraiser goes full moron on Twitter for whatever reason and starts a flamewar. It has nothing to do with either of those statements, which remain true and frankly anyone disagreeing with either of them is living on a different planet. I think nobody would ever disagree with your second point, but I'd like to ask something about the first point. "1) Foreigners are fortunate to have a region-locked tournament which rewards huge amount of prizemoney" Isn't that like saying "Korean Football players should be grateful and are fortunate that they have their own national league to compete in, instead of having to play Barca and Bayern etc...", while I would argue that it's just normal and how things are supposed to be and nothing to be especially grateful for? Yeah but this isn't a national league is it. It's literally "everyone who isn't Korean". That's like saying let's have the World Cup but make sure the previous World Cup winners can't play because it would be too hard for the other teams. i'd be in favour of national WCS leagues. That'd be great, then have them feed into something bigger, but that's not what WCS World is. WCS World is the "No Koreans allowed" treehouse and foreigners should be very grateful to have it. It is the easiest skill/prizemoney ratio tournament in the world right now, it's easier than online leagues and qualifiers. Still worth watching, but let's not pretend foreigners aren't lucky to have it. This is such an interesting phenomenon. I can't think of any other form of competition where one nationality is excluded for statistically being better.
They are discussing this in Biathlon where Norway has a big lead  It's not that huge now(compared to Korea and SC2), but some mumbling from the competitors is heard from time to time and the gap is slowly widening. Last time I heard something about lowering the numbers of Norwegians in a race because others want to be in top5 too 
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EPT
